Foye Locker Clean out Talk

[Winglish]

Hayward averaged more minutes than Foye. I prefer Hayward at the SF with the ball running through him. And Alec Burks constantly is included here by multiple posters as part of some "Core Four". If you throw Burks into your core four, he is considered a future starter, no?

[Inigo Montoya]

For the third time on this thread: Playing time is the coach's decision to make. It's up to the players to show they deserve playing time. Foye showed more than Burks.

I would have had no issue with starting Favors over Millsap.

and i say again - to say that PT is the coach's decision to make is exactly the problem because our coach is corbin. he prefer vets, even if they are worse than the young players. i'd argue that throughout the year (even last year) favors proved he deserved to start over millsap. yet he didn't, and millsap was really bad this year.

the fact that you say that you would have no issue if favors started over millsap just proves the point - favors showed he deserved PT, yet was benched the entire year in favor of millsap who played significantly worse.

foye didn't show more than burks, we just saw more from him because he got so much PT, while burks DNP'ed pretty much the entire 1st half of the season. to expect him to show something with the little crumbs of inconsistent, small PT he got is asking too much. even when he did got to play in the second half of the year, it was because corbin had no choice - injuries forced his hand, and burks had to play out of position most of the year.

[Winglish]

You make a fair point, especially about Favors, but Burks' effort defensively just has not been there when he gets on the court. His per 36 and per 48 minute stats tell the story. He needs to play harder if he wants a bigger crumb.

Go back and listen to Locke's draft night analysis. There was a lot of hopeful hyperbole, but the statement "Too cool for school" still sticks out in my mind. Locke nailed that aspect of Burks' game.

[StocktonShorts]

Hayward averaged more minutes than Foye. I prefer Hayward at the SF with the ball running through him. And Alec Burks constantly is included here by multiple posters as part of some "Core Four". If you throw Burks into your core four, he is considered a future starter, no?

The CoreFour crap is nonsense.

[Inigo Montoya]

You make a fair point, especially about Favors, but Burks' effort defensively just has not been there when he gets on the court. His per 36 and per 48 minute stats tell the story.

i agree burks wasn't good defensively early in the year. but i think it had more to do with his disconnect from the team which was the coach's doing. it is hard to stay engaged when all you get is sporadic, inconsistent, small PT in non-important minutes and garbage time. not everyone have a JYD mentality who will kill themselves on the court in any situation, even if they get 1 minute of PT in garbage time. either way, burks got so little, sporadic, inconsistent PT in so non-important situations to start the year that i can't take his 36 and 48 per stats too seriously.

[Winglish]

Go back and watch the wins against the Heat and Thunder when Burks was playing most of the game. That is the player he could be defensively if he wanted to. He had Westbrook crying and got Dwayne Wade benched. Burks just so rarely plays like he really wants it. He would make Jerry Sloan's head explode. I get very frustrated watching him.

[Inigo Montoya]

Go back and watch the wins against the Heat and Thunder when Burks was playing most of the game. That is the player he could be defensively if he wanted to. He had Westbrook crying and got Dwayne Wade benched. Burks just so rarely plays like he really wants it. He would make Jerry Sloan's head explode. I get very frustrated watching him.

i get very frustrated watching corbin coach him and manage his minutes. part of being a good coach is keep your players engaged. he obviously did a poor job with burks in the first half of the year and it showed on the court through burks' play and level of involvement. it also happened to almost the entire team at the same time at a certain point during the season.

but more to the point - if burks had westbrook crying and got wade benched, then he already did something that foye was never able to do or ever will be able to do. yet foye and several other players were favored over burks the entire season. foye started over him. i would be pissed too. and how is that not bad coaching? how many players in the league can make westbrook cry and get wade benched? and you don't start the guy, or even give him consistent minutes? you only give the guy minutes because injuries forces you too, and you play him out of position most of the year. how is that not bad coaching?

[Winglish]

Blaming the coach for a player's lack of effort? Come on...You know better. Or did you blame Jerry Sloan for Ostertag?

You'll notice I have not once stood up for Ty Corbin. He has issues. This thread was about whether or not Foye should be welcomed back. I like the guy and would welcome him back with open arms. Not saying he should be the starter, but for the fourth time, I sure would hope he and all other Jazz players would try their darndest to earn that starting spot. It starts in practice.

[Inigo Montoya]

Blaming the coach for a player's lack of effort? Come on...You know better. Or did you blame Jerry Sloan for Ostertag?

first of all, corbin is no sloan, my friend.

it's not like burks doesn't share responsibility. but the way he was treated and handled at the beginning of the season, i can see why\how he can be upset and how it will affect his play. getting a bunch of DNPs and only limited garbage time minutes can do that to a guy. how many players give you 100% at garbage time? most players just try to run the clock and try not to get injured anyway.

look, i can't disagree with you about foye. he's a great guy, and he can definitely contribute. there is certainly a place for him on this team, and we both agree it should be as a bench player and a 3pt specialist. i just don't trust corbin handling his role correctly. he failed to do so this year. last year raja and cj who had somewhat similar roles and had horrible seasons also criticized corbin, so it's not like he has a good track record making the most out of that position (which also relates back to how he handled burks and why he was disengaged). but corbin showed he plays the wrong players too much, and he misused foye this year as well. giving him foye again - i'm just afraid we will get similar results, and i don't find any comfort in saying after a wasted season for the team\individual players that it is the coach's fault, because the damage is already done.

[reapaman]

Go back and watch the wins against the Heat and Thunder when Burks was playing most of the game. That is the player he could be defensively if he wanted to. He had Westbrook crying and got Dwayne Wade benched. Burks just so rarely plays like he really wants it. He would make Jerry Sloan's head explode. I get very frustrated watching him.

What in the world are you talking about? Burks Barely played in the wins the heat (8 min) and when he did, wade wasn't even in the game. Not sure what your talking about with westbrook crying either, although westbrook cries and pouts alot so even if he did thats normal. He's getting better defensively but he has way more problems than just effort such as still bring weak in the fundamentals part. He's far from a good defender now.

As for not playing burks and his effort. Look you gotta be ready when the coach calls you. Corbin said himself, he was trying to find minutes for Burks early in season but couldn't and there a reason for that in which you guys refuse to try to understand. At least when injuries happened, Burks got minutes and even late in the season he found a fair amount of minutes for him unlike Jordan Hamilton. Burks got plent of time to show what he can and cannot do. Most guys don't wanna play the whole season anyway. Hamilton on the other hand remains a mystery depite the nuggets clearly needing his shooting ability especially after gallo went down.

[Winglish]

Must have been the Warriors win I'm thinking of. I went to two games in about a week's time period this year when Alec Burks suddenly decided he was going to play defense for real. It was like watching Tony Allen...thumbs up, arms active, frenetic motion, very disruptive, etc. Then came some games against I want to say maybe Chicago and Portland and Alec was still playing a bunch of minutes, but just ran up and down the court relaxed. He never got into the games mentally at all...just went through the motions. It was like watching CJ Miles all over again. I get very frustrated with players who don't play hard. Burks frutrates me to no end with his inconsistent effort.

[king everything]

Must have been the Warriors win I'm thinking of. I went to two games in about a week's time period this year when Alec Burks suddenly decided he was going to play defense for real. It was like watching Tony Allen...thumbs up, arms active, frenetic motion, very disruptive, etc. Then came some games against I want to say maybe Chicago and Portland and Alec was still playing a bunch of minutes, but just ran up and down the court relaxed. He never got into the games mentally at all...just went through the motions. It was like watching CJ Miles all over again. I get very frustrated with players who don't play hard. Burks frutrates me to no end with his inconsistent effort.

I'm still willing to see if the inconsistent effort is who Burks is as a player or if its a byproduct of being a young player thrust into an unnatural position with a bipolar rotation status... I wanna see if Burks gets treated consistently if he plays consistant. His talent is too much to give up on already, and too much to yoyo as well. Its easy to sit back and say that his effort should be there no matter what his minutes are and he should be ready to go- and some guys even pull it off. But in reality, imagine whatever job it is you have and imagine having no idea what is in store for you day to day, what your position in the company will be day to day...

Burks is like a law firm mailroom guy that got yanked into a courtroom and told to defend a serial killer. Out of position, inconsistent expectations... Still just a kid. The difference between he and CJ is Cj is still garbage 8 years in the league.

[StocktonShorts]

I think you guys are giving Corbin too much credit here by assuming he was limiting Burks' minutes based on his defensive effort. I think he primarily coached out of fear of losing and at any given moment he'd play whichever guys scared him the least.

Veterans, even if they're bad-to-mediocre ones, are usually less erratic than young players. They're consistently bad in predictable ways. This makes them less scary to coaches.

[Nate505]

Go back and watch the wins against the Heat and Thunder when Burks was playing most of the game. That is the player he could be defensively if he wanted to. He had Westbrook crying and got Dwayne Wade benched. Burks just so rarely plays like he really wants it. He would make Jerry Sloan's head explode. I get very frustrated watching him.

Corbin said himself, he was trying to find minutes for Burks early in season but couldn't and there a reason for that in which you guys refuse to try to understand.

Yeah, he couldn't find minutes for Burks because mega stars like Randy Foye and Marivn Williams just demanded minutes out there!

I mean, where would the Jazz have been this year if Marvin didn't get 30 MPG...

[reapaman]

Go back and watch the wins against the Heat and Thunder when Burks was playing most of the game. That is the player he could be defensively if he wanted to. He had Westbrook crying and got Dwayne Wade benched. Burks just so rarely plays like he really wants it. He would make Jerry Sloan's head explode. I get very frustrated watching him.

Corbin said himself, he was trying to find minutes for Burks early in season but couldn't and there a reason for that in which you guys refuse to try to understand.

Yeah, he couldn't find minutes for Burks because mega stars like Randy Foye and Marivn Williams just demanded minutes out there!

I mean, where would the Jazz have been this year if Marvin didn't get 30 MPG...

As mentioned in the summer .... the FO didn't sign foye and trade for Marvin in order to play a small role. If they had confidence in burks and thought he should play major minutes, then why bring in guys who are use to playing 25 + minutes?

You think foye who played 25 mpg for the clippers sign a 1 year deal(which people sign 1 year deals usually to showcase themselves for bigger contracts) came here thinking or being told he's gonna play behind a 2nd year player in burks who hasn't proved anything yet? Please .... you should know better than that.

[king everything]

Who cares what anyone was told? The minutes should be earned... the best players with the best chance of helping a team win should get the minutes. Screw Foye and Williams big roles. If they wanna keep them they should have to earn them. The post above me, to me, demonstrates everything that is wrong with the NBA.

[reapaman]

Who cares what anyone was told? The minutes should be earned... the best players with the best chance of helping a team win should get the minutes. Screw Foye and Williams big roles. If they wanna keep them they should have to earn them. The post above me, to me, demonstrates everything that is wrong with the NBA.

And I agree 100% but what I'm saying is thats just how the NBA typically works. We are not the only fan base complaining about the coach's rotation, in fact the majority of fans are complaining about that or their coach in general. The point is that people are blaming corbin for things he really doesn't have as much control over as people think he does. Play calling is one thing, rotation is a bit more complex than fans think.

The FO brought in vets that are in their primes and are used to playing major roles in for a reason and it wasn't for them to play a minor role behind a guy already on the team. So as a coach you play them and don't ask question if you want to keep your job. We may not like it and its not right but thats just the reality of things. Plus Burks is very inconsistent unlike someone such as jimmy butler who was outplaying most guys every night. In theory Butler truely earned his playing time, Burks can earn it or lose it from game to game.

[king everything]

Who cares what anyone was told? The minutes should be earned... the best players with the best chance of helping a team win should get the minutes. Screw Foye and Williams big roles. If they wanna keep them they should have to earn them. The post above me, to me, demonstrates everything that is wrong with the NBA.

And I agree 100% but what I'm saying is thats just how the NBA typically works. We are not the only fan base complaining about the coach's rotation, in fact the majority of fans are complaining about that or their coach in general. The point is that people are blaming corbin for things he really doesn't have as much control over as people think he does. Play calling is one thing, rotation is a bit more complex than fans think.

The FO brought in vets that are in their primes and are used to playing major roles in for a reason and it wasn't for them to play a minor role behind a guy already on the team. So as a coach you play them and don't ask question if you want to keep your job. We may not like it and its not right but thats just the reality of things. Plus Burks is very inconsistent unlike someone such as jimmy butler who was outplaying most guys every night. In theory Butler truely earned his playing time, Burks can earn it or lose it from game to game.

IDK that you could ever call Foye a major role player- I'd say we gave him the most significant role hes ever played... Marvin was widely renouned as a bust long before he got here. You're talking like we brought in prime superstars and crapped on their roles. Its Marvin Williams and Randy Foye. I'm pretty sure benching them two for sucking doesnt blacklist you in the NBA.

[Inigo Montoya]

your argument doesn't pass the test of reality.

corbin had no trouble starting favors over millsap to start last season. he didn't have a problem starting hayward over foye in the beginning of the year, and he didn't have a problem getting marvin (finally) to the bench. so it is evident he could start and play whoever he wanted at any role. he just chose to do what he did, which makes him a bad coach and cost us the playoffs, player development and\or a decent draft position (in, granted, an awful draft).

also, since this whole thread started by foye's quotes about how he was supposed to sign here for 3 years, and the prevailing majority here theorizing that it was basically agreed before hand that he will play out this season and then sign here for multiple years (remains to be seen), foye shouldn't have theses expectations of being a starter who fights for his livelihood. and again, he wasn't a starter at the beginning of the year - but a bench player, after being a bench player a year before. the coach had 100% control over the rotation.he managed it poorly and it cost the team.

[reapaman]

your argument doesn't pass the test of reality.

corbin had no trouble starting favors over millsap to start last season. he didn't have a problem starting hayward over foye in the beginning of the year, and he didn't have a problem getting marvin (finally) to the bench. so it is evident he could start and play whoever he wanted at any role. he just chose to do what he did, which makes him a bad coach and cost us the playoffs, player development and\or a decent draft position (in, granted, an awful draft).

also, since this whole thread started by foye's quotes about how he was supposed to sign here for 3 years, and the prevailing majority here theorizing that it was basically agreed before hand that he will play out this season and then sign here for multiple years (remains to be seen), foye shouldn't have theses expectations of being a starter who fights for his livelihood. and again, he wasn't a starter at the beginning of the year - but a bench player, after being a bench player a year before. the coach had 100% control over the rotation.he managed it poorly and it cost the team.

Once again ... at the beginning of last season Corbin wasn't given the goal of "Win Now", so he was operating under a different mindset. And who said anything about Hayward? Were talking about Burks (Mabey I confused you when I said start over burks when I should of said play over burks). I said pre-season hayward would start (although he should be a sixth man), everyone knew that. Hayward was already a starter before this season and Burks was only the picture of inconsistency and also couldn't shoot to save a baby from a lion. I don't think he earned anything. Burks playing over Foye was wishful thinking and down right naive. Foye eventually starting over Hayward was the right move because Haywards is best off the bench as a sixth man in which you saw notible improvements in his performance in that role. Plus even while Hayward was starting, Foye was getting close to starters minutes. He also tried the big lineup because Marvin was imcompatible with Mo and then when Mo went down, Marvin started again until the game Mo came back then Marvin went right back to the bench that very game. Also you don't think it could possibly be by design that he a bench unit together that could outperform other benches? If they start then that takes away your advantage plus many of them like Burks give you deminshing returns when they play major minutes.

I would also like to point out that Foye still starting 2/3 of the season for the clippers and got 30 + mpg with the wolves so he's played big roles on teams before. And Marvin may be a bust but he was still a longtime major contributor and starter for a playoff team. It was pretty much unanimous amongst fans on this forum that Marvin would start. So don't act like they are d-leaguers and burks is a proven player like harden or something.

Just to break it down, we already knew Hayward was gonna play a major role but they brought in veterans because they didn't think the other guys like Burks were ready to play major roles. All that was ovious but fans just didn't understand. If the FO didn't like what he was doing then they couldve fired him or traded some guys but they didn't. Plus they didn't tell Corbin to develop these guys like the Bobcats told the coach they brought in for this season to do. They told Corbin to "Win Now". Don't judge people on matters you do not understand.