Is the team better without Lee?

[Frank Mulely]

I just feel like size still wins. People are taking the Miami team the wrong way - Bosh is actually the best center in the league and LeBron is the best power forward. They're just both so good at guard / small forward skills nobody notices that. Look at the Lakers twin towers teams. Hey look at the Grizzlies - I love our Warriors squad but we'd get punished by the Grizz in a 7 game series without Lee.

[Mylie10]

DLee could prove his worth by giving a hard foul or fighting the opponents not to get post position so easily. Those qualities are pretty reachable. Make use of those 6 fouls that u have

This is exactly right.

Box out......really that is kind of his job as a power forward rebounder......it shouldn't be to much to ask for him to box out and give up a rebound or two in order for a team mate to grab it.

And contest more shots.....it should be a no brainer now that the team has shown him that they can win without him. This playoff series should prove to him and Jackson that its not necessary to play him 40 minutes and if he gets 18-8 with a better all around effort in less minutes that the team will be better than if he gets his "Numbers"

No knock on Lee....just a recipe for a better team with him included.

[Onus]

I just feel like size still wins. People are taking the Miami team the wrong way - Bosh is actually the best center in the league and LeBron is the best power forward. They're just both so good at guard / small forward skills nobody notices that. Look at the Lakers twin towers teams. Hey look at the Grizzlies - I love our Warriors squad but we'd get punished by the Grizz in a 7 game series without Lee.

We'd probably get punished with lee as well. Z-bo abuses Lee.

I agree that size still matters but let's not act like lee has good size, he still gets abused by length. He can't post up smaller players. It's why I'm intrigued by Al Jefferson as our 4 instead of Lee. He'd be our z-bo and abuse people down low.

[Onus]

DLee could prove his worth by giving a hard foul or fighting the opponents not to get post position so easily. Those qualities are pretty reachable. Make use of those 6 fouls that u have

This is exactly right.

Box out......really that is kind of his job as a power forward rebounder......it shouldn't be to much to ask for him to box out and give up a rebound or two in order for a team mate to grab it.

And contest more shots.....it should be a no brainer now that the team has shown him that they can win without him. This playoff series should prove to him and Jackson that its not necessary to play him 40 minutes and if he gets 18-8 with a better all around effort in less minutes that the team will be better than if he gets his "Numbers"

No knock on Lee....just a recipe for a better team with him included.

I agree with this. I think lee can improve his defensive efforts, and if he did so, I probably wouldn't loathe him as much.

I also see him chasing loose rebounds and yelling at teammates, especially ezeli, for grabbing them.

[Onus]

Wait a second are people really taking the side of the argument that nellie-ball/small-ball/stretch 4/ssol suns doesn't improve offenses?

I think that in itself should be more than enough evidence. Historically these types of offenses have been higher scoring. Maybe not efficient, some of those nellie ran teams were quite barren in talent though.

That's pretty absurd ...

The things those teams lacked was a true dominant center to clean up their messes on the defensive end, which we have in bogut. If anything those teams were lacking on the defensive end not the offensive end.

odd stance to take ...

[old rem]

Bogut being an impactful player =/= DLee being useless.

I think what we should be saying is that Bogut playing more like a healthy Bogut makes the team a heckuva lot better.

Much of the year, GSW was not getting a whole lot from any of Bogut,Barnes,Green...and they stepped up vs the Nugs.

GSW getting that vital win in Denver...was not about great D...it was about scoring 131 pts.

[MightyReds2020]

Is the Zach Randolph + Marc Gasol combo effective? There you go.

[Onus]

Yea except lee is not zach Randolph

[MightyReds2020]

Yea except lee is not zach Randolph

Beg to differ. Their offensive games are a bit different, yes, but both sucks at the defensive end. It wasn't an issue in Memphis since Gasol and the team's scheme cover him up, so Lee's weakness shouldn't be that big of the deal with a healthy Bogut, and offensively Lee's a perfect fit for this team.

[Badly Browned]

For what it's worth: (from 82games)

-Per 100 Possessions DLee was a net +6.0 points on the court compared to off court. (7.3 more points on offense, 1.3 points worse on defense). In 10-11 DLee was a net -0.4 pts and in 11-12 DLee was a net +0.5 pts.

-Furthermore, in a reflection of people's criticisms of DLee's rebounding, we grab 0.7% less total rebounds with DLee on the court as opposed to off. Looking through his career, he's generally rather neutral-to-slight negative rebounding wise.

This year's DLee has certainly been a positive contributor. He's not salary-dump-at-all costs bad, but like I said if the right offer comes along I'd jump on it.

Bogut being an impactful player =/= DLee being useless.

I think what we should be saying is that Bogut playing more like a healthy Bogut makes the team a heckuva lot better.

Much of the year, GSW was not getting a whole lot from any of Bogut,Barnes,Green...and they stepped up vs the Nugs.

GSW getting that vital win in Denver...was not about great D...it was about scoring 131 pts.

Well sure, when you're shooting 64.6% from the Field, great defense takes a back seat. Every other game we won was punctuated by Bogut dominating the paint on defense, and in Game 4 Bogut dunking all over the heds of the Nuggets smallball.

[Onus]

Yea except lee is not zach Randolph

Beg to differ. Their offensive games are a bit different, yes, but both sucks at the defensive end. It wasn't an issue in Memphis since Gasol and the team's scheme cover him up, so Lee's weakness shouldn't be that big of the deal with a healthy Bogut, and offensively Lee's a perfect fit for this team.

I'm talking strictly offense with these 2. Zach creates more of his opportunity on his own and just punishes smaller guys on the offensive glass. Lee on the other hand can't take advantage of mismatches and gets more plays created for him so that he can just finish.
the biggest difference to me is that lee can't abuse mismatches

For what it's worth: (from 82games)

-Per 100 Possessions DLee was a net +6.0 points on the court compared to off court. (7.3 more points on offense, 1.3 points worse on defense). In 10-11 DLee was a net -0.4 pts and in 11-12 DLee was a net +0.5 pts.

-Furthermore, in a reflection of people's criticisms of DLee's rebounding, we grab 0.7% less total rebounds with DLee on the court as opposed to off. Looking through his career, he's generally rather neutral-to-slight negative rebounding wise.

This year's DLee has certainly been a positive contributor. He's not salary-dump-at-all costs bad, but like I said if the right offer comes along I'd jump on it.

Bogut being an impactful player =/= DLee being useless.

I think what we should be saying is that Bogut playing more like a healthy Bogut makes the team a heckuva lot better.

Much of the year, GSW was not getting a whole lot from any of Bogut,Barnes,Green...and they stepped up vs the Nugs.

GSW getting that vital win in Denver...was not about great D...it was about scoring 131 pts.

Well sure, when you're shooting 64.6% from the Field, great defense takes a back seat. Every other game we won was punctuated by Bogut dominating the paint on defense, and in Game 4 Bogut dunking all over the heds of the Nuggets smallball.

So lee isn't an impactful rebounder. He's better than his back-up Landry, what 82games doesn't account for is playoffs where for the first time Harrison Barnes was used as a stretch 4

[MightyReds2020]

Yea except lee is not zach Randolph

Beg to differ. Their offensive games are a bit different, yes, but both sucks at the defensive end. It wasn't an issue in Memphis since Gasol and the team's scheme cover him up, so Lee's weakness shouldn't be that big of the deal with a healthy Bogut, and offensively Lee's a perfect fit for this team.

I'm talking strictly offense with these 2. Zach creates more of his opportunity on his own and just punishes smaller guys on the offensive glass. Lee on the other hand can't take advantage of mismatches and gets more plays created for him so that he can just finish.
the biggest difference to me is that lee can't abuse mismatches

Offensively, Lee is a much better fit next to Curry with their pick-and-roll game. You certainly don't want a Randolph-type who keeps pounding the ball and render Curry less effective.

Regardless, most people don't have an issue with Lee on offensive end so I brought up the Memphis tag-team as an example that it's not the end of world of you have a bad defensive 4 as long as you have a good cover at 5.

[FNQ]

I think ideally, more than Lee, Barnes @ PF setting screens is very interesting. Great hands, can pop or drive, and he's great at getting to full speed before the defense sets up.

Still want more Barnes @ 4... but not ready to get rid of Lee unless its the right deal. No point in taking a step backwards right now

[Badly Browned]

I think ideally, more than Lee, Barnes @ PF setting screens is very interesting. Great hands, can pop or drive, and he's great at getting to full speed before the defense sets up.

I remember we used Barnes in a pick and roll with Curry a few times in the season and it seems to work out well. When DLee went down I was actually expecting to see more of that.

[Frank Mulely]

Barnes if he can keep hitting that outside shot can be a problem at 4....but for spot duty. I don't want to play Memphis type teams and seriously expect Barnes to hold down major minutes at 4.

[FNQ]

You shouldnt expect it, but its definitely an option... if small ball is working, there's no reason to go away from it. Since the day I first saw him, I thought Barnes could be an excellent small 4, and he's done nothing to make me think otherwise. He's an elite outside shooter for a 4, and not a terrible rebounder by any means. I'd love to see him at the 4 vs SA, and see what Pop does to counter. Does he let Barnes take on Blair/Splitter/Diaw/Bonner/Baynes? Blair might give Barnes trouble, but I dont think the other 4 would cause nearly as much trouble for us as Barnes at the 4 would for them.

[bogutsdad]

Wow, can't believe the hate for David Lee!! People quickly forget he was an all star, lead the league in double/ doubles and 20/10 games, yet the team is better without him?? OMFG!! Just because Bogut returning closer to the player he can be and his sudden improvement putting a bandaid over Lee missing, doesn't suddenly make us a better team without him. Can understand arguments about his worth vs his salary, but people have short memories about how we made it to the playoffs in the first place if you think him sitting on the bench injured is helping the team

[floppymoose]

The problem with Lee is that hes effectively a frontrunner. By which I mean his game is great against poor or average opponents, but goes down even more than his teammates when confronted with quality opponents.

Here is how his +- per 100 possessions looked by month of the regular season. The important number is the distance he was from the best Warriors for that month; that way everyone is on same footing. I only compared the guys who played big minutes:

november: +0.6, 0.1 less than 1st place player Carl Landry
december: +9.3, in first place himself
january: -0.4, 5.2 less than 1st place player Harrison Barnes
february: -9.8, 11.3 less than 1st place player Jarrett Jack (lee was really horrid in Feb)
march: +7.3, in first place himself

Jan and Feb were the months we were facing the tough schedule. It is expected that he would be worse in an absolute sense during those months, along with all the other Warriors. What may not be expected is that he becomes much less valuable than his teammates, in a relative sense, when the quality of the competition goes up.

Lee just isn't meant for taking on the big boys. This, the size of his contract, and some expected decline going forward (while his contract increases) all make me want to see him traded.

It did not surprise me that the Warriors started playing better in the playoffs when he went out.

[DreDay]

He's a great 6th man, and as a starter he provides some solid post moves and a decent jumper. However, when his jumper is off it hurts the team. His post moves are quite good infact, his hook is fairly reliable and he can get to the foul line. For this team, that's important. His defense is absolutely pathetic though, but I've seen him motivated and it isn't that bad. His rebounding is overrated in that he steals rebounds from teammates, but he's still a solid rebounder.

Overall, I keep him as a 6th man if there isn't a good offer (Henson/Illyasova for example). I start this lineup:

Curry/Jack
Rush/Klay/Curry
Klay/Barnes/Green
Barnes/Lee/Green
Bogut/Ezeli/Landry

Sounds crazy, but spacing would be amazing, and Jack(if resigned)/Lee off the bench along with Landry (if resigned/option picked up) can spell insane trouble for the opposition. I think Lee's talents would be maximised in this role as well.

[GSForever]

Its very exciting ton see Bogut board and score where Lee is usually at. Should have saved our amnesty

Ridiculous. I don't think Bogut scores at all where Lee does and really. You'd amnesty Lee? He's a huge part of why we're in the playoffs.

Also, people talk about playing defense as if it's something that Lee just considers himself too cool to do and that if they could be 6-9 they'd forsure do a better job than him at it. These are the couple of hundred best competitors in a highly competitive market at play. It's not like he just doesn't give a **** and decides not to be a good defender.

You've made no notion of Bogut being able to score at will. You're along for the ride in the bandwagon mobile! I've mentioned before that Bogut needed to be involved in the offense and could easily average 10-12ppg.