P.J. Carlesimo Will Not Be Retained

[deepblueday]

Screw it. Someone call Malone, Stockton, Eaton and Thurl Bailey

I think there is new Brett Yormak slogan in there somewhere.

Brooklyn Nets....we go...back in time.

Not that far back, man. As far as those Jazz, I wouldn't have minded a 3-point shooter off the bench or a solid backup 3 this season. I don't care much for Brewer. None of them or packing the bench with old Nets were going to get the team to win a championship, but they could've at least provided more entertainment during the season and possibly more Nets basketball tonight.

Its all moot IMO. I agree hope we make those minor changes but unless there are also major changes...I just cant see these guys doing all that much more together. You know the best part? 3 years from now should that prove right...people will come around and say I was right...lets trade Deron and get younger..postpone our window. But by then he will 32 making huge money and the possibility wont be there.

is every move apart from acquiring a "star" player a minor change? i mean whose out there? kevin love, john wall? these are stars? these guys are going to be/become so much better than the guys we've got that we can somehow go from losing to a team whose best offensive player was nate robinson to beating lebron james?

we can swap our stars all we want. until you address issues of system, chemistry, coaching, role players, team identity, there is no window. we didn't lose to chicago because our stars aren't good enough. indiana isn't going to beat new york because they have a better player than carmelo anthony. the spurs don't continue to dominate the NBA based on overwhelming talent. even the heat, with their overwhelming star talent, didn't become champions until they developed all those things listed above. in fact they lost to a squad with all those things in abundance.

[Johnny Kilroy]

will prokhorov offer phil 20 mil annually plus ownership?

[Ronito]

Phil for team president, Shaw for coach.

[MGrand15]

Completely agree, deep. For all the talk of how little room for improvement we have, I like the assets we have. Tyshawn, Marshon, Mirza, Toko are good players IMO. I don't know how good they can be but if they're developed correctly or given time, I know they can be useful NBA players. Throw in Bogdanovic and the 22nd pick in the draft - which is a spot where you can definitely draft a GOOD player - I like the potential of our team. We can get a lot better. The front office has to make the right moves though - it all starts with the coach.

are they good players? i mean taylor and toko were mid second round picks. marhson was a late first with a lot of holes in his game. i think it is kind of naive to think these guys can just step in and play at the level wallace did(which wasnt good) or cj watson. why? because they tore up the d league for a few weeks? not saying they cant be ok players, but to think its as easy as throwing toko out there for 82 games and having him do what wallace did or better seems kinda homerish.

also, this is a team with a small margin of error, if you want to develop young guys, you are likely costing yourself a seed or 2 and possibly home court advantage in the playoffs.

I don't buy that at all. Bad coaches glue those guys to the bench - good coaches develop them. I'm going to break my argument up into a couple points.

1. Gerald Wallace, while I was still in favor of starting him, was HORRIBLE all year long. 40% from the field 29% from 3 on 30 mpg is terrible. When you consider the fact that he was ignored all year long, those percentages are extra damaging. I don't think you can understate how bad he was. Bogans was a better crunch time option and even PJC saw that before he lost his mind.

2. This isn't about throwing those young guys + Mirza out there for 35 mpg and expecting success. This is about developing the guys and trusting them. Bad coaches think they cost us wins but they really don't. As much as you may hate Marshon, he brings GOOD things to the table. He has skills that help win ball games, his problems are on the defensive side of the ball.

A good coach realizes we occasionally need an offensive punch or a ball handler on the 2nd unit and coaches Marshon throughout the year until he's good enough to not be a liability on defense and is able to give us that spark on offense. You hate Marshon, so I don't want to hear your counterargument about him but Thibs/Pop/any good coach doesn't bury that guy on the bench in favor of JERRY STACKHOUSE. This is true for all of our flawed players in the future. Mirza, Tyshawn, Toko. We can't just DNP them and expect them to get better. We would throw Marshon/Mirza out there at times and it was clear they were shellshocked.

3. Just based off what I've seen from the four as a "prospects" and their abilities in the NBA, I just like their potential. Not superstars but useful players. Tyshawn can guard most speedy PGs, can get to the rim and has a good feel for the game. Toko has a great motor, is a big SF and shot the ball pretty damn well in the D-League. Good signs. Marshon can get to the rim, make plays for others and is a much better spot up shooter than he showed this year. Mirza is not just a great spot up shooter but can shoot on the move/off-screens/fading away + has shown a high BBall IQ. I just like them all as future roleplayers and trust me, I haven't felt the same way about all our prospects.

[NyCeEvO]

So PJ received a 1st place vote for Coach of the Year and was ranked 10th overall, while Thibs received 2 1st place votes and was ranked 8th place overall.

[Paradise]

So PJ received a 1st place vote for Coach of the Year and was ranked 10th overall, while Thibs received 2 1st place votes and was ranked 8th place overall.

:lol::lol::(

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[enetric]

Its all moot IMO. I agree hope we make those minor changes but unless there are also major changes...I just cant see these guys doing all that much more together. You know the best part? 3 years from now should that prove right...people will come around and say I was right...lets trade Deron and get younger..postpone our window. But by then he will 32 making huge money and the possibility wont be there.

Some Nets fans that have been through rebuilding since Kidd was traded, mostly everyone here...I don't blame those just wanting to look forward to games rather than looking to a "wasted" season during a rebuild period. The goal is the championship, but even I'm guilty at times of just wanting to have a winning season. Don't worry, I know in the ultimate big picture of being contenders, I'm definitely wrong. I haven't lost sight of that.

Yeah I understand that. But my trade thoughts are not about rebuilding. I am looking at re-tooling and AVOIDING a full rebuild 3 years form now. See, I believe that 3 years from now if Deron is still on the team...we will trade JJ and Crash for the next JJ and Crash. But the 3-4 years to follow will be with an older Deron. That team will be like the Curry Knicks. Capped out and missing playoffs.

I feel if we can get a younger up and coming young star for a our supposed top 2 NBA PG who is 29...do it! he makes big bucks...so you will be taking back more than just that up and comer. I think the next 3 year after a trade like that...will be just as satisfying as if we do nothing and keep Deron.

Both team will make the playoffs. Both teams will not be going to the finals. But in 3 years when Wade is 34 and LBJ is 32...I prefer to have two stars players who are 25/28 vs. 32/28. That's all I mean.

I think in theory its possible to have a playoff team now...and a contender later if we can find a a deal now.

[enetric]

Well, It's about what fits and they all have chemistry and fit together.

Deron/CJ?
Joe/Brewer (replaces Bogans)
Wallace/Korver
Blatche/Evans/Teletovic
Lopez/

While I am fine with those moves...that team is not even slightly better.

Well, for one I was talking about the players Sloan coached and Deron wanted to keep who so happen to be free agents but I'm not even sure how you think that doesn't make us better.

It's not about the name, it's about the fit. You add a 3 point shooter to spread the floor, you add a better defender in Brewer, you obviously now begin building on Blatche/Lopez.

Obviously, other moves would be factored in that lineup considering I didn't mention Humphries, Brooks but it's the fact you are adding pieces that were missing all season long.

paradise,

which coaches would u like to coach the nets. also what r ur expectations next year. also i think enertic makes a good point. i stated that wallace and johnson are on the downside of their career. even with a new coach, how much better do u expect the team to get with minor changes especially with wallace and johnson on the downside?

also does johnson lopez or williams do u expect to change their personalities or aggression?

You build a bench that can limit and basically lessen the minutes and load on Wallace/Johnson and define their roles. Their not 38 so they still have more than alot to offer next year.

Add role players that fit within the structure of the team and find a coach that actually knows who he wants on the team.

I expect Lopez to improve and look to change the perception that he left everyone with after wetting the bed in the last 2 playoff games and I expect Johnson to focus on whatever role he is given by the coach because he made it fairly clear he prefers to be a catch and shoot decoy for the majority of a game instead of isolation post ups. I expect Wallace and Deron to be the most hungry players on the team. I'm not really that confident in anyone else at this point.

The Nets just need to fix offensive spacing, a defensive game plan that works and accountability. Trust me, If the Knicks could get it done with all of their obvious flaws of age, isolation players and lack of good defenders then there is no reason why this group cannot get it done either.

Its very simple. I feel you are living in a fantasy land by thinking if only we change the low level guys to slightly better low level support guys who fit better that we become all that much better.

Minor players effect minor improvement. You seem to be blind to the flaws of Dwil Lopez, and to a lesser extent JJ. That big 3 is not going to do much better than 50 wins and and I dont care what set of league vet minimum to 3 mil per year guys you add around them. THE CORE is going to dictate your upside in the NBA. It needs to be said to you time and time again. This is a superstars league....and the level of your superstars will dictate where you are going 98% of the time. This isnt a Detroit Pistons defensive juggernaut team that got lucky by playing the Lakers at the worst point of their turmoil. This big 3's upside with its bad D, its bad rebounding, its lack of great speed...isnt going to be tweaked into the team you seem to think they are.

If we make zero player changes for next season...perhaps we can win a round or two with a better coach and continued developing chemistry. MAYBE.

Make those minor changes you proposed and its not much different. A 50 ish win team....make the playoffs upside is conference finals....so yeah...I repeat myself. Didnt make a difference. Look at the roster you created and then look at the Heat, A Rose led Bulls...some other team that makes a big trade in the conference to make themselves a true top 5 team say Cavs or Wizards?

Where do that leave us with that squad you came up with? And I havent even mentioned the Nix or Pacers who can make the same subtle improvements in the off season you want us to make.

Paradise...I think you have very unrealistic expectations. And that is my beef with you when you write 50 5 word posts a day ripping the same 4 minor influence guys. I agree with you those guys stink. Its just that changing them wont make a monumental difference because the core is STILL going to dictate the bottom line. AND THAT is the NBA.

[enetric]

Not that far back, man. As far as those Jazz, I wouldn't have minded a 3-point shooter off the bench or a solid backup 3 this season. I don't care much for Brewer. None of them or packing the bench with old Nets were going to get the team to win a championship, but they could've at least provided more entertainment during the season and possibly more Nets basketball tonight.

Its all moot IMO. I agree hope we make those minor changes but unless there are also major changes...I just cant see these guys doing all that much more together. You know the best part? 3 years from now should that prove right...people will come around and say I was right...lets trade Deron and get younger..postpone our window. But by then he will 32 making huge money and the possibility wont be there.

is every move apart from acquiring a "star" player a minor change? i mean whose out there? kevin love, john wall? these are stars? these guys are going to be/become so much better than the guys we've got that we can somehow go from losing to a team whose best offensive player was nate robinson to beating lebron james?

we can swap our stars all we want. until you address issues of system, chemistry, coaching, role players, team identity, there is no window. we didn't lose to chicago because our stars aren't good enough. indiana isn't going to beat new york because they have a better player than carmelo anthony. the spurs don't continue to dominate the NBA based on overwhelming talent. even the heat, with their overwhelming star talent, didn't become champions until they developed all those things listed above. in fact they lost to a squad with all those things in abundance.

Swapping your star IS addressing system and chemistry! Deron Williams is apoor defender. He is slow by NBA standards of PG's. He is not grabbing boards. No rebounds, no foot speed means no transition.

Sure we ned a better coach and better role players. But my point is...the result will be about the same same with Deron at the top. 50-ish wins...playoffs...with a max upside of conference finals...and most likely less than that. So what?

I want a younger big upside potential star player making LESS money than Deron that allows us to absorb MORE players in the deal to give us MORE flexibility. That way when we deal Hump we MAXIMIZE the impact of what we get for him. Plus, if we get a younger potential star...we can be more competitive after this 3 year window we are locked into. We are not going to rebuild in 3 years. We will make trades that extend the mediocority until all we have is a capped out team declining each season.

I dont know how anyone watched this team this year and sees massive upside from what we accomplished simply because of a better coach and better low level journeymen additions than the ones we have now.

Minor improvements? Yes. But again for how long? Deron is 29. So you have 3 years. I would rather start a plan now for 3 years form now when LBJ is 32 and Wade is 34. That doesnt mean I am rebuilding now. Hell, I think we can still be a 50 win team these next 3 years. I just feel the handwriting is on the "Wall".

The smart money would be to make a bold change and trade the older star at the height of his value.

[MrDollarBills]

Its very simple. I feel you are living in a fantasy land by thinking if only we change the low level guys to slightly better low level support guys who fit better that we become all that much better.

Minor players effect minor improvement. You seem to be blind to the flaws of Dwil Lopez, and to a lesser extent JJ. That big 3 is not going to do much better than 50 wins and and I dont care what set of league vet minimum to 3 mil per year guys you add around them. THE CORE is going to dictate your upside in the NBA. It needs to be said to you time and time again. This is a superstars league....and the level of your superstars will dictate where you are going 98% of the time. This isnt a Detroit Pistons defensive juggernaut team that got lucky by playing the Lakers at the worst point of their turmoil. This big 3's upside with its bad D, its bad rebounding, its lack of great speed...isnt going to be tweaked into the team you seem to think they are.

If we make zero player changes for next season...perhaps we can win a round or two with a better coach and continued developing chemistry. MAYBE.

Make those minor changes you proposed and its not much different. A 50 ish win team....make the playoffs upside is conference finals....so yeah...I repeat myself. Didnt make a difference. Look at the roster you created and then look at the Heat, A Rose led Bulls...some other team that makes a big trade in the conference to make themselves a true top 5 team say Cavs or Wizards?

Where do that leave us with that squad you came up with? And I havent even mentioned the Nix or Pacers who can make the same subtle improvements in the off season you want us to make.

Paradise...I think you have very unrealistic expectations. And that is my beef with you when you write 50 5 word posts a day ripping the same 4 minor influence guys. I agree with you those guys stink. Its just that changing them wont make a monumental difference because the core is STILL going to dictate the bottom line. AND THAT is the NBA.

Great post. This team is doomed to above average seasons and 1st rd exits.

Williams isn't a superstar that dominates the game on both ends

Lopez is a talented player, but a big bitch

Johnson is washed up, and doesn't give a damn

We are screwed. We'd be less screwed had we not handcuffed ourselves to Johnson and Wallace, but why cry over spilled milk.

Anyone who thinks this team is winning anything in the next three years is sadly delusional.

[Netaman]

I don't disagree with anything being said in this thread, but I do think there's is some anecdotal hope out there long term. The Dallas Mavericks.

If you think back, they had a prolonged period of time between when they rose from the ashes and actually won in the playoffs. Their first successful iterations obviously featured Dirk - who was labeled as a soft guy who would never win a big game - and a bunch of offensive pieces like Finley.

Over time they were obviously a very competitive regular season team, with minor playoff successes, but they also made moves here and there to change coaches and acquire some tougher players; which ultimately ended up bringing them Carlisle, Kidd, Chandler, Terry and the rest of the crew that won a championship a few years ago.

Will Lopez or Williams ever develop the toughness Dirk developed over time? Who knows. I'd say they both have offensive skill sets with plenty of upside to perhaps get there. Will King find a coach who can elevate the team the way Carlisle did? Or the 'Tyson Chandler' defensive anchor that this team desperately needs? Again, who knows. But it's possible because it has been done before. And I'm happier to watch and wait for a few years while we're winning 45+ games as opposed to the alternative.

[MGrand15]

Enetric, why do you waste your time. Regardless of your stupid thoughts on Deron Williams, he's finishing out his contract here. Literally no trade makes sense in the present or the near future.

This is a superstar league but a superstar without a team around him goes nowhere. That's been proven OVER and OVER.

From Miami's first year, the only changes have been to their role players. LBJ/Wade/Bosh were as good a top 3 as you'll find in the league but their system/role players held them back and they got embarrassed in the Finals. Since then, they've gone from a 58 win team with clear flaws to a 66 win team that has the whole league scared.

LBJ took Cleveland's below average squad to 45 wins with a MONSTER 30 ppg, 8 rpg, 7 apg season in 07/08. The next year, they didn't trade Lebron nor did he get much better. They simply upgraded their role players from below average trash (Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Devin Brown, Damon Jones) to average/good players (Anderson Varejao, Mo Williams, Delonte West). Not giant upgrades on paper, LBJ's numbers are nearly identical if not worse and yet the team JUMPED to 66 wins.

You can argue that Tyson Chandler is a superstar but he was basically the only difference in that Dallas team that won the title from the one that got bounced in the first round the year before.

Last year the Knicks were the 8th seed with the same exact core they have now. No change from Melo, Tyson, JR, or Amare. They upgraded their role players and benefited from good coaching - THATS IT. Now they're contenders and a much better team than we are.

This is most certainly a superstar league but if you surround superstars, even the best of the best, with mediocrity or players that don't fit, the teams will not succeed. Do you think I'm bringing up rarities? This happens ALL THE TIME. We don't need another superstar - Deron and Brook Lopez (and JJ to a certain extent) are good enough. If we upgrade the players around them, get a good coach, click at the right time - I see no reason why we shouldn't be very, very competitive for the next 3 years. At the very least, at the level NYK is at right now. I don't expect Miami to be this good forever.

[Paradise]

Enetric, why do you waste your time. Regardless of your stupid thoughts on Deron Williams, he's finishing out his contract here. Literally no trade makes sense in the present or the near future.

This is a superstar league but a superstar without a team around him goes nowhere. That's been proven OVER and OVER.

From Miami's first year, the only changes have been to their role players. LBJ/Wade/Bosh were as good a top 3 as you'll find in the league but their system/role players held them back and they got embarrassed in the Finals. Since then, they've gone from a 58 win team with clear flaws to a 66 win team that has the whole league scared.

LBJ took Cleveland's below average squad to 45 wins with a MONSTER 30 ppg, 8 rpg, 7 apg season in 07/08. The next year, they didn't trade Lebron nor did he get much better. They simply upgraded their role players from below average trash (Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Devin Brown, Damon Jones) to average/good players (Anderson Varejao, Mo Williams, Delonte West). Not giant upgrades on paper, LBJ's numbers are nearly identical if not worse and yet the team JUMPED to 66 wins.

You can argue that Tyson Chandler is a superstar but he was basically the only difference in that Dallas team that won the title from the one that got bounced in the first round the year before.

Last year the Knicks were the 8th seed with the same exact core they have now. No change from Melo, Tyson, JR, or Amare. They upgraded their role players and benefited from good coaching - THATS IT. Now they're contenders and a much better team than we are.

This is most certainly a superstar league but if you surround superstars, even the best of the best, with mediocrity or players that don't fit, the teams will not succeed. Do you think I'm bringing up rarities? This happens ALL THE TIME. We don't need another superstar - Deron and Brook Lopez (and JJ to a certain extent) are good enough. If we upgrade the players around them, get a good coach, click at the right time - I see no reason why we shouldn't be very, very competitive for the next 3 years. At the very least, at the level NYK is at right now. I don't expect Miami to be this good forever.

Bingo.

This team needs high quality role players that bring it and FIT. The Knicks are in the 2nd round with Carmelo and JR shooting like garbage.

Martin, Prigoni, Felton, Shumpert are uplifting them and their winning. There is no way in hell two guys on this team could shoot like crap and we win against an elite defense. Game 7 was a prime example. Game 2 was a prime example.


If you develop a bench, you add a 6th man and guys who will bring it on nights when Deron, Lopez or JJ do not have it or hurt to have to play 40 minutes per game, that changes the landscape of a game.

It's really that simple.

[Antti22]

So basicly, when Knicks went from 8 seed with bad coaching to 2nd seed with decent coaching. Then we were 4 seed with bad coaching. That means we will be first seed with good coaching?
A boy can dream

[MrDollarBills]

Fine. How will we upgrade said roleplayers when 30 mil in cap space is devoted to two players who have been a complete waste?

[Paradise]

Fine. How will we upgrade said roleplayers when 30 mil in cap space is devoted to two players who have been a complete waste?

Carefully find the right pieces at a low price.

Delonte West
Raja Bell
Ronnie Brewer
Brandon Wright
S. Telfair
Martell Webster

You still have HBAP to be used, 1st round draft pick, Bogdanovic possibly coming over and 3 million to spend on buying 2nd round picks.

If the Knicks, Clippers built their bench and role players being capped out and nothing but MLE deals then there is no reason we can't.

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[MGrand15]

Fine. How will we upgrade said roleplayers when 30 mil in cap space is devoted to two players who have been a complete waste?

Carefully find the right pieces at a low price.

Delonte West
Raja Bell
Ronnie Brewer
Brandon Wright
S. Telfair
Martell Webster

You still have HBAP to be used, 1st round draft pick, Bogdanovic possibly coming over and 3 million to spend on buying 2nd round picks.

If the Knicks, Clippers built their bench and role players being capped out and nothing but MLE deals then there is no reason we can't.

Sent from my LG-MS770 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Basically. Draft well. Hope that some of our unproven players pan out or develop them correctly (Tyshawn, Marshon, Toko, Mirza). Sign useful players for the vets minimum. Sign someone good with our mini-MLE. Trade Hump/Evans for anything.

It's not rocket science but it's not easy. We don't need to look for stars, we just need to avoid the dreadful players. Those guys soaked up A LOT of minutes for us this year.