2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[JordansBulls]

Voting Panel: PM me if you want to be a voter. If you PM me that in the near future and participate in the Discussion thread, I'll probably approve you as a judge and count your vote when I make the Voting thread after the Finals.

Everyone who participated during original project should be allowed to vote now.

Yeah here was the original comittee

Spoiler:

Current voting members (Home team)
1. Doctor MJ (Lakers)
2. tkb (Lakers)
3. penbeast0 (Wizards)
4. TrueLAfan (Clippers)
5. Silver Bullet (Raptors)
6. Sedale Threatt (Lakers)
7. ElGee
8. Gongxi (Bulls)
9. Mysticbb (Bulls)
10. Bastillon
11. JordansBulls
12. Dr Mufasa (Raptors)
13. Shawngoat23
14. Drza (76ers)
15. Optimism Prime (Rockets)
16. Ronnymac2 (Lakers)
17. Baller24 (Rockets)
18. TMACFORMVP
19. the_rock220
20. DavidStern
21. An Unbiased Fan (Lakers)
22. Manuel Calavera (Trail Blazers)
23. CellarDoor
24. semi-sentient (Lakers)
25. Tesla (Lakers)
26. sp6r=underrated (Knicks)
27. ItsMillerTime (Pacers)
28. NO-KG-AI (Hornets)
29. kaima
30. Mean_Streets
31. ThaRegul8r
32. fatal9

[Doctor MJ]

Voting Panel: PM me if you want to be a voter. If you PM me that in the near future and participate in the Discussion thread, I'll probably approve you as a judge and count your vote when I make the Voting thread after the Finals.

Everyone who participated during original project should be allowed to vote now.

Not sure why you're saying this. Are you saying you'll refuse to add to the discussion or insist on violating voting standards?

If not, why wouldn't you get a vote?

[lorak]

Voting Panel: PM me if you want to be a voter. If you PM me that in the near future and participate in the Discussion thread, I'll probably approve you as a judge and count your vote when I make the Voting thread after the Finals.

Everyone who participated during original project should be allowed to vote now.

Not sure why you're saying this. Are you saying you'll refuse to add to the discussion or insist on violating voting standards?

How you got that idea?

I'm simply saying anyone who was participating during original project and OF COURSE (everyone who participated in the past should know that rule) would be active part of discussion in '2013 thread should be allowed to vote. No need to PM you unless someone is new to POY project.

[GSP]

Looks like I lost a post in there. Oh well. I was given my general thoughts. Pretty similar to realbig's. Where I differ:

I'd still put Curry outside the top 5 at this point (and so Wade & Melo are in). If Curry keeps this up against the Spurs, he has a very good chance at cracking my top 5.

Clarifying more on my judgement of Wade in the 1st round: It's similar to LeBron, Duncan and Parker. These teams coasted against teams we don't care about. If these players look far more impressive in more serious series, how can it make sense to knock them based on what they did at a series where additional effort would not have changed the result meaningfully?

Shout out to the two bigs Gasol & Noah. I doubt they'll become super-serious threats for the top 5, but top 10 seems likely at this point.

Why Noah shoutout over Kg?
Minutes not enough of argument IMO Kg played 35mins in playoffs and we were -19.3 with him sitting on bench. Our defense on knicks owned when he played and crap when he wasnt and if pierce didnt get shut down complete by shumpert we had a good chance to win that one

[Sinant]

As of the regular season, I had:

LeBron
Durant
Paul
Wade
Melo

But now that 5 spot is up for grabs. Melo has been god awful in the playoffs, and if history holds it doesn't look like that's going to change. Harden wasn't much better. Kobe didn't play.

The next 2 up for it would be Curry/Duncan. I don't feel comfortable giving Curry a Top 5 nod based on a great 6 games. I wouldn't have really thought of him as a serious contender for a Top 5 place until the Denver series so I don't want to get too caught up in the moment. Duncan's minutes limitations bother me when it comes to putting him over guys that can play a whole game.

I'm really confident in my Top 3, I don't see that changing (unless Wade goes supernova and wins the Finals MVP somehow). I'm reasonably confident in my #4. I'm not confident at all in that last spot. Hopefully one of the contenders steps up.

Good year so far, the top 3 had really strong years. Durant and CP3 going crazy in the playoffs has been a lot of fun to watch.

[fatal9]

LeBron
KD
Paul

After that, it's hard. Wade, Curry, Parker, M. Gasol will probably be the 4 guys I'll decide between. Wade has had health issues so need to see how he holds up over course of playoffs. Parker has also been slowed down by injuries after that incredible tear he was on couple of months ago. Curry was my choice for 4th in the MVP race for most of year and he's played really well in last couple of months of season + playoffs, so I'm high enough on him that I'll probably pick him. M. Gasol, had him borderline top 10 most of the year, but I think now you could put him in the top 5 easily, especially with how he's performing offensively in the playoffs. Usually guys whose primary value is defense don't end up on "top 5" lists but to me the other offensive superstars are flawed enough that Gasol can be placed over them. Duncan I'm not sure would be capable of playing more minutes if he were on a different team, so probably won't be picking him.

Overall a weak year after the top 3 due to lots of injuries, some of the young stars not quite being in their prime yet and the older guys being past theirs.

[Mutnt]

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Paul

I'm pretty comfortable that this is how the Top 3 will look at the end of the postseason. The following group of players will probably end up somewhere in the 4-8 spot: Curry, M.Gasol, Duncan, Parker, Wade. As of now, I'm leaning towards Parker at 4. and Curry at 5. After that group, we have Melo, Harden, Kobe, Lopez and Noah competing for the next five spots (8-13). Rounding up the Top 15, I can see me squeezing Z-Bo and Westbrook in there (he's out for the remainder of the PS but I believe he's done enough this year to justify himself as a Top 15 player. I mean, Kobe's in there and he hasn't even played a game in the postseason...)

[Doctor MJ]

How you got that idea?

I'm simply saying anyone who was participating during original project and OF COURSE (everyone who participated in the past should know that rule) would be active part of discussion in '2013 thread should be allowed to vote. No need to PM you unless someone is new to POY project.

Ah I see. Well, I'd still appreciate the PM. In the past it's been a pain to track down all the list of names.

[Doctor MJ]

Why Noah shoutout over Kg?
Minutes not enough of argument IMO Kg played 35mins in playoffs and we were -19.3 with him sitting on bench. Our defense on knicks owned when he played and crap when he wasnt and if pierce didnt get shut down complete by shumpert we had a good chance to win that one

That's an excellent question. I'll go over my thoughts just stream of consciousness, but I might not be consistent.

I've been on the "No really, Garnett's still amazing!" wagon for a while, but this year it just feels like he moves out of serious POY discussion. Playing 50% of the minutes on a .500 team? It just screams out that the team desperately needed more minutes from him. By contrast Duncan's 50% minutes seem far more tolerable simply by context.

But does Noah deserve more respect than Garnett when he missed time too? Is Noah close enough per minute that his minutes move him ahead of Garnett?

I didn't have either in my top 10 before the Bulls upset of the Nets. Should I really raise Noah up based on the series? Hard to justify the more I think about it.

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron
KD
Paul

After that, it's hard. Wade, Curry, Parker, M. Gasol will probably be the 4 guys I'll decide between. Wade has had health issues so need to see how he holds up over course of playoffs. Parker has also been slowed down by injuries after that incredible tear he was on couple of months ago. Curry was my choice for 4th in the MVP race for most of year and he's played really well in last couple of months of season + playoffs, so I'm high enough on him that I'll probably pick him. M. Gasol, had him borderline top 10 most of the year, but I think now you could put him in the top 5 easily, especially with how he's performing offensively in the playoffs. Usually guys whose primary value is defense don't end up on "top 5" lists but to me the other offensive superstars are flawed enough that Gasol can be placed over them. Duncan I'm not sure would be capable of playing more minutes if he were on a different team, so probably won't be picking him.

Overall a weak year after the top 3 due to lots of injuries, some of the young stars not quite being in their prime yet and the older guys being past theirs.

Thoughts on Melo?

[TMACFORMVP]

Also... what makes Curry better than Harden

I've seen every game this season for both of these players, and while I'm a Rockets fan...I think Curry is just a better player.

Curry is much better at creating his own shot. His handles are terrific, which allows him to get a good look at any time against any defense. He's also much more useful off the ball, a slightly better play-maker, and a better defender (though that's not saying much). He's also more efficient at taking care of the ball. But I also think Curry can just flat out beat you in more ways. Harden generally only catches the ball at the top of the arc and holds the ball. If you pack the paint, more often than not he'll settle for the jumper, or he'll try to dribble into traffic and draw a foul. He's very good at drawing fouls, and much better than Curry in that regard, but if you limit that aspect to an extent, Harden will struggle. Right now, Harden has zero mid-range game, post-game, or any sort of game from the corners (like 4-5 corner threes made all season). Curry can score from anywhere on the court, which adds more variety to his game. IMO, the only way to guard Curry is by defending him physically off the ball to prevent him from catching it. And stupidly enough, the Warriors often have Jack initiating the offense for long stretches which can take Curry out of the game.

I think he's getting his props as a top 5 player in this thread, but in general...the dude has had a mad underrated season. He's been everything for this Warriors team. With Bogut's re-emergence defensively, it's no surprise they beat the Nuggets.

[B_Creamy]

I've seen every game this season for both of these players, and while I'm a Rockets fan...I think Curry is just a better player.

Curry is much better at creating his own shot. His handles are terrific, which allows him to get a good look at any time against any defense. He's also much more useful off the ball, a slightly better play-maker, and a better defender (though that's not saying much). He's also more efficient at taking care of the ball. But I also think Curry can just flat out beat you in more ways. Harden generally only catches the ball at the top of the arc and holds the ball. If you pack the paint, more often than not he'll settle for the jumper, or he'll try to dribble into traffic and draw a foul. He's very good at drawing fouls, and much better than Curry in that regard, but if you limit that aspect to an extent, Harden will struggle. Right now, Harden has zero mid-range game, post-game, or any sort of game from the corners (like 4-5 corner threes made all season). Curry can score from anywhere on the court, which adds more variety to his game. IMO, the only way to guard Curry is by defending him physically off the ball to prevent him from catching it. And stupidly enough, the Warriors often have Jack initiating the offense for long stretches which can take Curry out of the game.

I think he's getting his props as a top 5 player in this thread, but in general...the dude has had a mad underrated season. He's been everything for this Warriors team. With Bogut's re-emergence defensively, it's no surprise they beat the Nuggets.

Thoughts on Curry Vs. Melo?

[therealbig3]

Curry with an amazing game in a loss following a Warriors collapse.

Knew they would have a game like this at some point. Can't keep making dumb mistakes and expect to hold onto leads, especially against a disciplined Spurs team. Curry himself wasn't all that great down the stretch.

Still, he's firmly in my top 5 as of right now. He's proving his huge games aren't a result of poor defense, he can light up anybody.

[GSP]

Is it just me or does Parker always get outdone badly by Pgs in big games?
Cant put a player like that in top 10 let alone top 5

[therealbig3]

Is it just me or does Parker always get outdone badly by Pgs in big games?
Cant put a player like that in top 10 let alone top 5

I pointed it out in the game thread...dude consistently plays worse in the playoffs, and if you look at the Spurs playoff series losses over the years, Duncan and Manu are usually doing their job...it's Parker that usually lays an egg.

[ardee]

Curry..... Dear God.

I think I made a mistake by putting Duncan in my top 5 earlier. Realbig3 was right.... The Spurs' MVP changes every game.

So right now, LeBron (who by the way is surprising me with his lack of truly dominant performances in the Playoffs till now), KD (who is ABSOLUTELY surprising me with the truly dominant performances he's providing), CP3 (he was great even though his team lost) and Curry are the ones I'm sure about in my top 4.

For the 5th spot, Gasol, Parker, Duncan perhaps, Wade and on the ouuuuuuuuutside Noah can build cases over the next 3 rounds.

[E-Balla]

Curry..... Dear God.

I think I made a mistake by putting Duncan in my top 5 earlier. Realbig3 was right.... The Spurs' MVP changes every game.

So right now, LeBron (who by the way is surprising me with his lack of truly dominant performances in the Playoffs till now), KD (who is ABSOLUTELY surprising me with the truly dominant performances he's providing), CP3 (he was great even though his team lost) and Curry are the ones I'm sure about in my top 4.

For the 5th spot, Gasol, Parker, Duncan perhaps, Wade and on the ouuuuuuuuutside Noah can build cases over the next 3 rounds.

Again Wade has been complete crap in the playoffs, and Noah over Melo? Can't be serious.

[ardee]

Curry..... Dear God.

I think I made a mistake by putting Duncan in my top 5 earlier. Realbig3 was right.... The Spurs' MVP changes every game.

So right now, LeBron (who by the way is surprising me with his lack of truly dominant performances in the Playoffs till now), KD (who is ABSOLUTELY surprising me with the truly dominant performances he's providing), CP3 (he was great even though his team lost) and Curry are the ones I'm sure about in my top 4.

For the 5th spot, Gasol, Parker, Duncan perhaps, Wade and on the ouuuuuuuuutside Noah can build cases over the next 3 rounds.

Again Wade has been complete crap in the playoffs, and Noah over Melo? Can't be serious.

Right my bad, completely forgot about him.

He's definitely in the upper mix with Parker. Wade, Duncan and Gasol are the next bunch. Noah is in a distant fourth tier.

[nunemouse]

Again Wade has been complete crap in the playoffs, and Noah over Melo? Can't be serious.

Actually, both Melo and Wade have been completely crap in the Playoffs. Both have a WS48 of less than .1 (Melo is at 0.08). The difference is Wade has been complete crap in games where it mattered less if he was playing well or not (given Lebron), and Melo has been complete crap in a team where he is the leader. You argued earlier that he played well in game 6 vs Boston, because he recognized his shot was off and created for others, but he still put up 23 shots (and only made 7), but dished out a mere 5 assists. That seems to be huge stretch. Wade took half the shots but had 2x the assists in his pathetic game 3 vs the Bucks.

Regardless, neither of them have been performing well (especially Wade, considering his playoff standards) and I don't think they deserve serious consideration for a top 5 that is supposed to strongly emphasize playoff performance.

[nunemouse]

Also, regarding Kobe, I think he should be getting more serious consideration for being in the top 5 given how underwhelmingly his competition (Harden/Melo/Wade) have been performing. This is less of a full ranking and more of a "who is #4/5?" lol. The way I see it now the 4/5 can go to Curry/Parker/Duncan/Kobe followed by Wade/Melo/Noah/Gasol.