If stacked Heat team lose is Lebron out of top 5 GOAT chat?

[Chalky White]

If he plays how he did in 2011, no one will tell you he has GOAT consideration. But if it's like 2009 Magic series, would you hold it against him? I guess my question is, what would you have expected him to differently in that series for it to have mattered in your eyes?

Yes, I would hold it against him. He's playing the Bulls with only one of their horns, this aint the Bad Boys Pistons.

[Chalky White]

Playoffs are all about your core stars and depth is mostly irrelevant. This "stacked" Heat team's 2nd and 3rd best players are averaging 12.9 ppg on poor shooting in the playoffs. If they don't pick it up significantly, then winning a championship should instantly elevate LeBron to GOAT status.

I guess I'll just say I disagree, for obvious reasons.

[Not Bias]

@ the thought that Miami is going to lose to the Bulls. As for the OP's question, yes it will hurt Lebron's legacy, just like 2011. But he still would have a case for top 5.

[JordansBulls]

:lol: @ the thought that Miami is going to lose to the Bulls. As for the OP's question, yes it will hurt Lebron's legacy, just like 2011. But he still would have a case for top 5.

Why couldn't they? This may be the only time they play from behind in a series. They now have to win in Chicago.

[MaliBrah]

:lol: @ the thought that Miami is going to lose to the Bulls. As for the OP's question, yes it will hurt Lebron's legacy, just like 2011. But he still would have a case for top 5.

Why couldn't they? This may be the only time they play from behind in a series. They now have to win in Chicago.

you make it seem impossible for the heat to grab just 1 win in the UC

[JordansBulls]

:lol: @ the thought that Miami is going to lose to the Bulls. As for the OP's question, yes it will hurt Lebron's legacy, just like 2011. But he still would have a case for top 5.

Why couldn't they? This may be the only time they play from behind in a series. They now have to win in Chicago.

you make it seem impossible for the heat to grab just 1 win in the UC

Not saying that, just saying they have to win on the road here. In any other series they really don't.

[Not Bias]

Why couldn't they? This may be the only time they play from behind in a series. They now have to win in Chicago.

Well Miami was in this same predicament back in 2011 and managed to win 2 games in Chicago. If anything can this depleted Bulls roster keep up with this stacked Heat team...with HCA .

[GetItDone]

The only way Miami loses this series is if LeBron is not LeBron. If LeBron is LeBron than Miami is not losing with LeBron being LeBron. If he's not LeBron and they lsoe this series, than yes, he'll deserve some hate, but not as much that should take him out of potential top 5.

[rrravenred]

A series of half-assed half-gamed efforts like game 1 would be a significant blow. If he tears it up '09-style and the team (somehow) still loses then that's another question. I have the feeling that the Heat as a team took the Bulls lightly, though they're a decent tier above the Bucks.

But it's a terrible year for any lapses or upsets (in terms of underperforming). The Heat have created a significant rod for their own backs with their sterling performances to date.

[Langdon Alger]

Oh how quickly people forget, the Heat trailed in every playoff series after the first round last year, and Lebron always responded with monster games.

down 2-1 to Indiana: Lebron drops 40-18-9
down 3-2 to Boston: Lebron drops 45-15-5
down 1-0 to OKC: Lebron drops 32-8-5 including GW shot and clinching FT.

If anything tomorrow's a must watch game.

[E-Balla]

He already did it in 2011 and people still think he can be the GOAT. No it won't change anything as long as he wins next year because people are short minded.

[CJ_18]

Oh how quickly people forget, the Heat trailed in every playoff series after the first round last year, and Lebron always responded with monster games.

down 2-1 to Indiana: Lebron drops 40-18-9
down 3-2 to Boston: Lebron drops 45-15-5
down 1-0 to OKC: Lebron drops 32-8-5 including GW shot and clinching FT.

If anything tomorrow's a must watch game.

This. Its like you people forget that last year the guy turned in some of the greatest performances basketball has ever seen when his back was against the ropes. Take into account that he is even better/more confident now than he was then, and he is playing a weaker opponent, expect a monumental performance tomorow night from LBJ, the first time we'll really see what playoff-LeBron can do this year when he decides he really wants to inflict his will.

[Doctor MJ]

If stacked Heat team lose to Bulls team missing their league MVP best player or any notable star is Lebron out of top 5 GOAT chat? Even further does this put to rest the Lebron GOAT hype?

It's pretty clear that this season is only going to be a GOAT contender for LeBron if he wins a title.

Losing to Chicago though would be more shocking than just that though certainly. It's hard to even imagine how it could happen.

[sp6r=underrated]

If stacked Heat team lose to Bulls team missing their league MVP best player or any notable star is Lebron out of top 5 GOAT chat? Even further does this put to rest the Lebron GOAT hype?

It's pretty clear that this season is only going to be a GOAT contender for LeBron if he wins a title.

Losing to Chicago though would be more shocking than just that though certainly. It's hard to even imagine how it could happen.

Chicago is so banged up they don't have the offensive firepower to do it but this Heat team has a real flaw: they are weak on the boards and if they were to win a title they would probably be the weakest rebounding team to do since the 95 rockets. The Heat are vulnerable on the boards and that is the reason their point differential doesn't match their aura of an ATG best in history team that so many have given them.

Chicago does have the front-court to get those offensive boards unfortunately they lack enough true scorers to win the series.

[Doctor MJ]

Chicago is so banged up they don't have the offensive firepower to do it but this Heat team has a real flaw: they are weak on the boards and if they were to win a title they would probably be the weakest rebounding team to do since the 95 rockets. The Heat are vulnerable on the boards and that is the reason their point differential doesn't match their aura of an ATG best in history team that so many have given them.

Chicago does have the front-court to get those offensive boards unfortunately they lack enough true scorers to win the series.

I agree with you that Miami is weak on the boards but the point differential comment is just weird. Their aura exists because of how they tore through the second half of the season which left people thinking 1) the first half was them coasting, and 2) the Heat were so dominant when push came to shove that they could take the first half off.

[JNelson43]

There's been some interesting conversations on this board recently relating to how "black narks in their resume" should measure against a player as far as their place in history. To me the black marks make a difference, but aren't the difference. People seem pretty willing to overlook Lebron's failings in the past, but that's only because they're projecting multiple seasons like this one and multiple championships.

A black mark like losing to a decimated Bulls team with a team like the 2013 Heat, it would be pretty bad. But as bad as the mar on his resume itself would be, just as bad would be the fact that its another wasted year in his prime. Lebron is arguably up there already, but for him to start overtaking the cream of the crop he's going to have to put in a lot of great years from start to finish.

Finally, I don't think people are really being fair to this Bulls team. Yeah they're missing valuable and important players, but the players (and coach) they do have preserve the team's identity. They still have players that fit well into playoff basketball. If the Bulls were ever going to beat the Heat, it would be by playing Bulls basketball. Rose is better than Noah, but Noah is closer to being representative of Chicago basketball.

[sp6r=underrated]

First, saying a team is weak on the boards almost entirely refutes the idea that a team is best in history quality.

Second, During their 27 game win streak their avg MOv was 11.92.

Many teams, which aren't regarded as ATG teams had 27 game stretches were they outscored their opponents by similar margins. The 90 Pistons had a 27 game stretch were they went 25-2 and won by 11.56. Were they an ATG team?

Point differential as an indicator of team quality is far more proven than plus/minus as an indicator of individual quality. The case for point differential is as strong as the case for cigarettes causing lung cancer while the case for plus/minus is only slightly superior to the case that organic food being good for you. Yet for some reason on this board it is plus/minus that is taken as gospel while people constantly dismiss point differential under "oh they were coasting".

[The Infamous1]

The heat had far and away the most talented team in the league when everyone was healthy. Now that there's been so many injuries there's no excuse for them not lose. So yes if they lost, ESPECIALLY to a severely undermanned bulls team it would be a big dump to Bron's legacy

[Doctor MJ]

First, saying a team is weak on the boards almost entirely refutes the idea that a team is best in history quality.

Second, During their 27 game win streak their avg MOv was 11.92.

Many teams, which aren't regarded as ATG teams had 27 game stretches were they outscored their opponents by similar margins. The 90 Pistons had a 27 game stretch were they went 25-2 and won by 11.56. Were they an ATG team?

Point differential as an indicator of team quality is far more proven than plus/minus as an indicator of individual quality. The case for point differential is as strong as the case for cigarettes causing lung cancer while the case for plus/minus is only slightly superior to the case that organic food being good for you. Yet for some reason on this board it is plus/minus that is taken as gospel while people constantly dismiss point differential under "oh they were coasting".

As I mentioned, one of the most noteworthy trends of the Heat's run was how they coasted in the first half.

Consider: During that 27 game run the Heat's average 4th quarter edge was +5.6. Multiplied over 4 quarters, that the equivalent of an edge +22, which is pretty damn noteworthy.

Is it more noteworthy than the '90 Pistons? I don't know. More importantly though:

Is it something we can say was NOT much affected by luck? Obviously if this had more to do with luck than anything else that answers all questions. If it wasn't luck based, then isn't it a pretty huge deal when you can win 27 in a row while clearly not giving max effort the entire time?

Re: Point differential more proven that +/-. That's an odd statement. I'm not ignoring point differential here because I don't look at it, I"m giving a specific reason why it's misleading in this case. I make specific cases why an individual's +/- is pretty off pretty often too.

Re: Can a team be GOAT if they are weak on the boards? See now that's a good question. The Heat feel like a team that might be GOAT-effective built around their contemporaries but might have had to go in a very different direction in another era. It's worth asking what we should think about that if that's true.

We can't ask that though without pointing out how what suicide it would be to try to run many old strategies in the modern NBA.

[AshyLarry]

no his name should still be out there with the top 5 goat talk, however... if he does choke this away , i dont ever wanna see comparisons of lebron to MJ again...ever