More defensive impact: peak Jordan vs current Lebron

Gregoire · Post #1 » by **Gregoire** » Thu May 9, 2013 8:36 am

Who is more impactful defensive: peak Jordan (88-93) or current Lebron.Both played on DPOY level, different slyles, but overall - who impacted the game more?

lorak · Post #2 » by **lorak** » Thu May 9, 2013 9:27 am

Jordan never played on DPOTY level. Yes, he won that award but his impact wasn't on that level.

Jordan23Forever · Post #3 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Thu May 9, 2013 11:17 am

DavidStern wrote:Jordan never played on DPOTY level. Yes, he won that award but his impact wasn't on that level.

lol

I guess that's why the Bulls were 2nd in DRtg the year he won DPOY and he was 6th in individual DRtg despite having no other standout defenders on the team (Oakley was a good, not great, post defender at that time). His energy and activity on that end (255+ stl/130+ blk) was the main reason they were so successful defensively that year. Nice try, though.

therealbig3 · Post #4 » by **therealbig3** » Thu May 9, 2013 11:21 am

IMO, it's clearly LeBron. LeBron can do everything Jordan could, except he can also guard PFs. And imo, he's more consistent.

lorak · Post #5 » by **lorak** » Thu May 9, 2013 11:30 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Jordan never played on DPOTY level. Yes, he won that award but his impact wasn't on that level.

lol

I guess that's why the Bulls were 2nd in DRtg the year he won DPOY.

Bulls DRTG in 1988 was -2.5 relatively to league average. Next year no Oakley and it drop off to -0.1 (so barly better than average).

Also, in 1993 Bulls drtg was -1.9 and -3.7 in 1992. Then Jordan left, so if he had DPOTY level impact then Chicago defense should be much worse. But in reality 1994 Bulls were -3.6 defensive team, so as good as 1992 team. So either Myers also was DPOTY level player or Jordan's defensive impact is way overrated by you.

So really, what evidence do you have that Jordan had DPOTY level impact?

Jordan23Forever · Post #6 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Thu May 9, 2013 11:52 am

DavidStern wrote:
Bulls DRTG in 1988 was -2.5 relatively to league average. Next year no Oakley and it drop off to -0.1 (so barly better than average).

Also, in 1993 Bulls drtg was -1.9 and -3.7 in 1992. Then Jordan left, so if he had DPOTY level impact then Chicago defense should be much worse. But in reality 1994 Bulls were -3.6 defensive team, so as good as 1992 team. So either Myers also was DPOTY level player or Jordan's defensive impact is way overrated by you.

So really, what evidence do you have that Jordan had DPOTY level impact?

Jordan was visibly less active on defense the following year, so that explains that. The numbers support this. As for '93 to '94, the entire composition of the team changed, and the team as a unit focused on defense more because they knew they couldn't focus on offense to win games.

lorak · Post #7 » by **lorak** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:22 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:
Jordan was visibly less active on defense the following year, so that explains that. The numbers support this.

No they don't. His DRB improved dramatically. Blocks were down because coaching staff knew that without Oakley Jordan can't gamble as much anymore.

As for '93 to '94, the entire composition of the team changed,

Yeah, Myers and Kerr in place of Jordan is entire composition of the team...

Stop making silly excuses and provide some prove of Jordan DPOTY level impact. Because if 1988 drtg is all you have got, then LOL.

Jordan23Forever · Post #8 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:31 pm

DavidStern wrote:
Jordan23Forever wrote:
Jordan was visibly less active on defense the following year, so that explains that. The numbers support this.

No they don't. His DRB improved dramatically. Blocks were down because coaching staff knew that without Oakley Jordan can't gamble as much anymore.

Without Oakley he couldn't gamble as much? Without OAKLEY!? Where do you get this stuff from? Oakley was never ANY sort of shotblocker or mistake-eraser on defense, so his presence had no effect on Jordan's style of play. I'd LOVE for you to provide ANY sort of substantiation for that claim. You're the master of just saying stuff and hoping it sticks.

lol @ you talking about Jordan's defense as "gambling," though. :lol:

Double lol @ citing Jordan's DRB when his steal/block numbers dropped precipitously, and anyone who watched games from '88 and then '89 could see the difference in his activity level on defense help-wise.

lorak · Post #9 » by **lorak** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:37 pm

1988: 10.7 DRB%, 3.9 STL%, 2.4 BLK%
1989: 17.3 DRB%, 3.6 STL%, 1.2 BLK%

So big improvement in DRB, drop off in BLK and basically the same in STL

But the most important thing - you still didn't provide any proof of Jordan's DPOTY level impact.

Jordan23Forever · Post #10 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:44 pm

WHat does DRB have to do with defensive impact? OF COURSE his defensive rebounding increased - they lost a league-leading rebounder.

Please provide substantiation of your claim that Jordan couldn't "gamble" as much without Oakley around.

lorak · Post #11 » by **lorak** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:50 pm

DavidStern wrote:
But the most important thing - you still didn't provide any proof of Jordan's DPOTY level impact.

Jordan23Forever · Post #12 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:53 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:
Please provide substantiation of your claim that Jordan couldn't "gamble" as much without Oakley around.

lorak · Post #13 » by **lorak** » Thu May 9, 2013 12:59 pm

I asked first, so if you will answer my question I will answer yours.

colts18 · Post #14 » by **colts18** » Thu May 9, 2013 1:00 pm

The Bulls defense got better when MJ left then when he returned the defense got worse. That would never happen with LeBron.

mademan · Post #15 » by **mademan** » Thu May 9, 2013 1:36 pm

I think it's pretty clearly Lebron. You just can't teach size.

TheChosen618 · Post #16 » by **TheChosen618** » Thu May 9, 2013 1:37 pm

There is nothing I hate more than people that think that ONE player is responsible for a team's entire defense. Basketball is a 5 on 5 team sport. Great defensive teams are usually created by coaches, not by players and certainly not by one player.

Lebron's defensive impact was greater due to his size and versatility. He could defend perimeters and bigs.

vinceWin · Post #17 » by **vinceWin** » Thu May 9, 2013 1:40 pm

No doubt it's Lebron. His ability to LOCK DOWN 1-3's and to disrupt bigs is something none of us have ever seen before. Truly a one of a kind player in his own right.

Not Bias · Post #18 » by **Not Bias** » Thu May 9, 2013 2:07 pm

How can anyone with any ounce of objectivity say a 6'6 Jordan has more impact than a 6'8 250lb freak? Not to take anything away from Jordan he was great at his time, but like "TheChosen618" said Lebron's size and ability to guard out of position really gives him the edge. Did anyone see game 2, I mean Lebron was playing some ball hawking defense that you only see from Ed Reed.

guy1 · Post #19 » by **guy1** » Thu May 9, 2013 2:44 pm

DavidStern wrote:
Jordan23Forever wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Jordan never played on DPOTY level. Yes, he won that award but his impact wasn't on that level.

lol

I guess that's why the Bulls were 2nd in DRtg the year he won DPOY.

Bulls DRTG in 1988 was -2.5 relatively to league average. Next year no Oakley and it drop off to -0.1 (so barly better than average).

Also, in 1993 Bulls drtg was -1.9 and -3.7 in 1992. Then Jordan left, so if he had DPOTY level impact then Chicago defense should be much worse. But in reality 1994 Bulls were -3.6 defensive team, so as good as 1992 team. So either Myers also was DPOTY level player or Jordan's defensive impact is way overrated by you.

So really, what evidence do you have that Jordan had DPOTY level impact?

You do realize that the Heat's DRTG and its relative position to league average barely changed from 2010 to 2011 right? So according to the DRTG, Lebron barely made a difference. So, going by your logic, what evidence do you have that Lebron had DPOTY level impact?

SST · Post #20 » by **SST** » Thu May 9, 2013 2:48 pm

Yall are underestimating Jordans defence ahahaha

Defensive impact: peak MJ vs current Lebron