2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[E-Balla]

And Melo with back to back games being held scoreless in the 4th quarter. Does he drop out of the top 10 now?

They've been out of the game and in full chuck mode as a team in the last 2 4th quarters though so it makes no difference IMO. He could've made all 3 shots and they would've still lost. Personally these last two games were bad but not super bad. He was still somehow the best person on the team. Definetly not enough to knock him out the top 10.

Conley didn't have the better season though. "Clutch" is one of the most overrated concepts around.

Using the clutch argument for Conley over D-Will is like that one poster that was using game-winning shots that Melo's hit to put him over Durant and CP3. The argument doesn't really make a lot of sense and doesn't really prove anything.

There's no objective evidence for Conley over D-Will, especially when you consider team context.

Well, I shouldn't say no objective evidence, there is +/-, and Conley has always looked really good in +/-, better than a lot of big name PGs. I think it proves he's underrated, but at the same time, I can't use +/- as a sole reason to put him over someone else who by my eye test and by box score production is clearly better.

It depends. He's clearly had a better postseason. I guess it comes down to how much you care about the postseason.

[SideshowBob]

Yeah I don't think Williams should be making any top 5s. I like looking at end of season play as well as an indicator of how good Player A is, but in a POY, I think actual impact made, or value contributed, or whatever you want to call it, is more important. The overall picture needs to be looked at with heavy weight on the PS.

If I'm doing a career evaluation, I'd lean towards probabilistic thinking, but with an award like this, I think by design we're looking for voting that's results oriented.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm confused, why is DWill and Conley being mentioned in a POY thread.

Conley I don't know, but D-Will has an outside argument for top 5.

Based on what? I doubt he even makes All-NBA 3rd team, and the Nets lost to an injury depleted Bulls team. He's not even Top 10.

[therealbig3]

Deron Williams might not have been a Top 50 player for the first 50 games of the season. Recency bias is funny.

Forget 50, name 25 players better through the first 50 games.

And I must have missed the memo that said only the first 50 games matter. Compare his entire season to other players.

It depends. He's clearly had a better postseason. I guess it comes down to how much you care about the postseason.

No, he hasn't.

[CBA]

Deron Williams might not have been a Top 50 player for the first 50 games of the season. Recency bias is funny.

Forget 50, name 25 players better through the first 50 games.

And I must have missed the memo that said only the first 50 games matter. Compare his entire season to other players.

Everyone who made the allstar game.

Well, if you're struggling to be a top 50 player for literally over half the season, it's unlikely you were good enough for the rest of the season to be top 5, no?

[therealbig3]

Deron Williams might not have been a Top 50 player for the first 50 games of the season. Recency bias is funny.

Forget 50, name 25 players better through the first 50 games.

And I must have missed the memo that said only the first 50 games matter. Compare his entire season to other players.

Everyone who made the allstar game.

Well, if you're struggling to be a top 50 player for literally over half the season, it's unlikely you were good enough for the rest of the season to be top 5, no?

Except not everyone that made it was better, and he played pretty outstanding in the last 32 games (was easily a top 3-4 player post-ASB), which makes a jump from top 20-25 to 5 possible.

I also don't think he is top 5, but he has just as good of an argument as Wade/Harden/Melo at this point, who were far worse in the playoffs than he was, and overall, had similar statistical seasons as he had.

[CBA]

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

[ronnymac2]

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

Steph Curry didn't make the All-Star team...

[CBA]

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

Steph Curry didn't make the All-Star team...

And everyone cared.

Also, he played in the West.

[therealbig3]

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

Yes I would still consider him close to top 5. The whole season matters. His overall play still matches up with almost anyone else in the running for top 5.

[ronnymac2]

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

Steph Curry didn't make the All-Star team...

And everyone cared.

Also, he played in the West.

Shifting goalposts...

Luol Deng and Jrue Holiday making the all-star team was a travesty.

[bondom34]

Updated list

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Stephen Curry

HM: James Harden, Carmelo Anthony

Putting Kobe in my top 5 after Wade injury issues and Melo and Harden playoff struggles.

You're raising Kobe up because Wade got hurt after Kobe got hurt?

You're raising Kobe up because other players are struggling at a time Kobe would be physically unable to do even that?

I actually think this isn't a bad list, mine would be close, as Kobe essentially carried the Lakers to an 8 seed nearly alone toward the end of the season, and so many guys have been so underwhelming in the playoffs. Depending on how one weighs importance of different points of the season, I understand Kobe in above some others. I think I'd go:

1. Lebron
2. KD
3. CP3
4. Harden
5. Toss up between Kobe, Wade, and Curry is climbing

As for another guy climbing, anyone think of Paul George at least for HM? I think I'd put him at least in that category, his defense and effect in the postseason has been great, even w/o offensive numbers that stand out much.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

Yes I would still consider him close to top 5. The whole season matters. His overall play still matches up with almost anyone else in the running for top 5.

Come on man, Deron isn't close to Top 5 player this year, at all.

[CBA]

Steph Curry didn't make the All-Star team...

And everyone cared.

Also, he played in the West.

Shifting goalposts...

Luol Deng and Jrue Holiday making the all-star team was a travesty.

How am I shifting the goalposts. Read the post you quoted: "Deron didn't make the allstar team and no one cared." No one cared because Deron didn't play well enough to make the all star team. People cared about Curry because he did play well enough to make it.

It's not a travesty; it's the Eastern Conference. Of course they made it when they're competing with Paul Pierce and Deron Williams.

Don't be ridiculous, Deron wasn't a top 20 player. He didn't make the allstar team and no one cared.

I think you should pretend those last 28 games happened first, then that much larger sample size of 50 games happened after. Now do you think Deron is top 5? Of course not.

Yes I would still consider him close to top 5. The whole season matters. His overall play still matches up with almost anyone else in the running for top 5.

No, it really doesn't.

[therealbig3]

No, it really doesn't.

Ok, prove it. How are Melo, Harden, and Wade clearly better than D-Will overall for the season?

PS: You should probably check out how D-Will played after his first 30 games, not just after the first 50 games.

[therealbig3]

The All-Star game is a glorified exhibition game, and players are selected based on a lot of extraneous factors that have nothing to do with "how good are you"...no idea how anyone thinks that's actually a valuable tool in evaluating players.

[Doctor MJ]

The All-Star game is a glorified exhibition game, and players are selected based on a lot of extraneous factors that have nothing to do with "how good are you"...no idea how anyone thinks that's actually a valuable tool in evaluating players.

iirc, didn't Deron himself say he didn't think he deserved to make the all-star game this year?

I gotta say, I was not expecting Deron's name to really come in here as a serious candidate from anyone. Maybe you can convince me, but this was not how I was thinking of his season at all.

[CBA]

No, it really doesn't.

Ok, prove it. How are Melo, Harden, and Wade clearly better than D-Will overall for the season?

PS: You should probably check out how D-Will played after his first 27 games, not just after the first 50 games.

I find this whole conversation silly at this point and I honestly wonder how it got this far so I'll keep it short: They put up better stats with similar to better efficiency on better teams and the RAPM numbers correspond with those facts. If you need further clarification than that, then perhaps someone else can help you.

[ronnymac2]

How am I shifting the goalposts. Read the post you quoted: "Deron didn't make the allstar team and no one cared." No one cared because Deron didn't play well enough to make the all star team. People cared about Curry because he did play well enough to make it.

It's not a travesty; it's the Eastern Conference. Of course they made it when they're competing with Paul Pierce and Deron Williams.

How is "Nobody cared" an argument man?

The fact that Steph Curry did not make the all-star when he was obviously deserving (you yourself seem to think this) really puts a hole in your argument. Curry's omission is proof that no, the top 24 players in the NBA are not always selected to be in the all-star game. Therefore, your argument against Deron is weak.

That said, THE argument against Deron is there. I'm not championing him to be at number 5. He's a weak-to-decent contender.

[ardee]

I think we should all feel a little silly about how we were talking about Curry earlier.

He's had 17 ppg on 35% from the field in the last 4 games. And the funny thing is, we still need to put him in our top fives simply because no one else is playing that great.

These Playoffs are crazy... So up and down. Parker is probably back in my list.