The Lebron Thread (Pt. 2)

[arifgokcen]

Kind of annoying that Lebron's going to have to face 3 straight great defensive teams (assuming they play the Pacers and Griz).

Are the Bulls really a great defense without Deng and Hinrich all series, I think not. Their seasons ranking would have tumbled without those 2 for a full year. Robinson is a horrid little defender, Boozer is also terrible, and because Butler is filling in for Deng, Marco Belinelli has to start, who is average at best, and I rate him as a bit below average.

Any time the Bulls have not put 3 quality defenders in their starting lineup this year, the quality and consistency of it has drastically fallen down. Nate Rob with any other two suspect defenders on the floor has meant real bad results for the Bulls. A good argument could be made for starting Gibson with Robinson, as those lineups did a lot better.

Actually if deng was playing,lebron would have a field day.Butler is 100x better lebron defender.

I have watched almost all lebron vs deng matchups.Deng has a reputation but thats it,its just reputation.Lebron torched him everytime

[toodles23]

Are the Bulls really a great defense without Deng and Hinrich all series, I think not. Their seasons ranking would have tumbled without those 2 for a full year. Robinson is a horrid little defender, Boozer is also terrible, and because Butler is filling in for Deng, Marco Belinelli has to start, who is average at best, and I rate him as a bit below average.

Any time the Bulls have not put 3 quality defenders in their starting lineup this year, the quality and consistency of it has drastically fallen down. Nate Rob with any other two suspect defenders on the floor has meant real bad results for the Bulls. A good argument could be made for starting Gibson with Robinson, as those lineups did a lot better.

Point made. Still, they've done a really good job on Lebron, even if they haven't defended the Heat as a whole all that well. Butler is definitely playing Lebron better than Deng ever did.

[Rerisen]

Actually if deng was playing,lebron would have a field day.Butler is 100x better lebron defender.

LeBron's efficiency was reduced in the 2011 ECF vs his norms actually with Deng as primary defender. PPG about the same. Bulls did a really good job for the most part on him, but his jumper was on that series, and what really killed was he hit several bailout threes that won games. Think he was 5/10 in the clutch on three pointers that series. Really nothing you can do there, Bulls made him take the shots they wanted, he just made them.

I do think Butler defends LeBron at least as well as Deng, however it would be far better vs him to have both. As then you still have a very good defender on him if there is a switch, and obviously you can platoon both guys, and they will get less fatigued, and have to worry less about foul trouble. Not to mention help defense and collapse from either is far better than that of Marco, Rip, or Cook.

Stopping a superstar is never about just 1v1. And the original comment was about the Bulls *team* level defense, which is definitely hurt without Luol and Kirk. Better defenders around the main matchup lead to better help, better rotations, less breakdowns if the ball rotates back to LeBron a 2nd time, less assists due to shooters being covered better, etc.

That the Bulls have maintained pretty well in light of the injuries is a credit to Thibs, and perhaps also showing a bit of side effect of Wade not being 100% making the task not quite as difficult. It should never be forgotten what a great asset LeBron has there when Wade is healthy that makes defending him so much harder.

[Rasho_libre]

Actually if deng was playing,lebron would have a field day.Butler is 100x better lebron defender.

LeBron's efficiency was reduced in the 2011 ECF vs his norms actually with Deng as primary defender. PPG about the same. Bulls did a really good job for the most part on him, but his jumper was on that series, and what really killed was he hit several bailout threes that won games. Think he was 5/10 in the clutch on three pointers that series. Really nothing you can do there, Bulls made him take the shots they wanted, he just made them.

I do think Butler defends LeBron at least as well as Deng, however it would be far better vs him to have both. As then you still have a very good defender on him if there is a switch, and obviously you can platoon both guys, and they will get less fatigued, and have to worry less about foul trouble. Not to mention help defense and collapse from either is far better than that of Marco, Rip, or Cook.

Stopping a superstar is never about just 1v1. And the original comment was about the Bulls *team* level defense, which is definitely hurt without Luol and Kirk. Better defenders around the main matchup lead to better help, better rotations, less breakdowns if the ball rotates back to LeBron a 2nd time, less assists due to shooters being covered better, etc.

That the Bulls have maintained pretty well in light of the injuries is a credit to Thibs, and perhaps also showing a bit of side effect of Wade not being 100% making the task not quite as difficult. It should never be forgotten what a great asset LeBron has there when Wade is healthy that makes defending him so much harder.

#1 lebron is not clutch. I thought every body knew that. Greene font
#2 2011 version of Lebron was the worst version of Lebron in the past 6 years.
#3 he still dominated deng. Something about Deng seems to really make Lebron go off.

[Rerisen]

I don't think 2011 LeBron was worse from a capability standpoint. Wade was still a top 3 player in the game then and it drove LeBron's season stats down is all. Of course the Finals was brutal and bizarre and we can say that made the year his worst on performance, but that was likely all mental, not like his physical ability dropped.

Career head to head reg season, LeBron gets more points than norm against Deng, probably where the perception comes from, but shoots a bit worse (tad under 50% while being over it last 4 years against the league), and less assists. Bulls don't like LeBron setting everyone else up, and usually try to hold that down, and usually achieve it. This series its been much harder specifically due to the injuries I've mentioned.

LeBron's best performance vs Chicago was on Cleveland in 2010, and I blame a lot of that on Vinny Del Negro, who was pretty clueless about just about everything.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I didn't watch LeBron nearly as much while he was in Cleveland obviously, but even just going from 2011 to 2012/13, I can safely say the current LeBron is quite a bit better player just solely in terms of athleticism, not even factoring in the improvements he's made skill wise and in decision-making.

If you look at clips from him in 11 compared to 12 and 13, its apparent he dropped some weight (not really muscle, looks like he was just carrying a bit extra fat that year), and its very noticeable in his explosion. Could not take guys off the dribble nearly as easily, was not getting alley oops nearly as often... it really turned him into more of a jumpshooter that whole season, not to take credit away from the Bulls and other teams' defenses, but he took more jumpshots that year than even the previous season in Cleveland.

[toodles23]

I didn't watch LeBron nearly as much while he was in Cleveland obviously, but even just going from 2011 to 2012/13, I can safely say the current LeBron is quite a bit better player just solely in terms of athleticism, not even factoring in the improvements he's made skill wise and in decision-making.

If you look at clips from him in 11 compared to 12 and 13, its apparent he dropped some weight (not really muscle, looks like he was just carrying a bit extra fat that year), and its very noticeable in his explosion. Could not take guys off the dribble nearly as easily, was not getting alley oops nearly as often... it really turned him into more of a jumpshooter that whole season, not to take credit away from the Bulls and other teams' defenses, but he took more jumpshots that year than even the previous season in Cleveland.

Pretty much. I don't know how you could watch the 2011 season and come away thinking Lebron was anything like the same guy athletically that he was in Cleveland. As someone who's followed Lebron closely since '06, the difference was incredibly obvious to me. It wasn't a slow decline either, he was pretty much as athletic as ever in '10, just look at the highlights of him in the playoffs against the Bulls that year. Jaw dropping explosion that he hasn't shown since (even though he looks a lot better now than he did in '11, it's still a clear step down from his Cavs days).

[OnlyOneWay2Play]

I don't know how you could watch the 2011 season and come away thinking Lebron was anything like the same guy athletically that he was in Cleveland. As someone who's followed Lebron closely since '06, the difference was incredibly obvious to me. It wasn't a slow decline either, he was pretty much as athletic as ever in '10, just look at the highlights of him in the playoffs against the Bulls that year. Jaw dropping explosion that he hasn't shown since (even though he looks a lot better now than he did in '11, it's still a clear step down from his Cavs days).

Exactly what I and many of us on this thread have noticed (in fact the original topic of the thread was about LeBron's declining athleticism!). Just look at this clip from the Bulls series in 2010 and notice the fluidity, explosiveness, and agility:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofMwRzJynnc[/youtube]

Just, as toodles said, jaw-dropping. In Miami, LeBron has simply not seemed to possess this kind of grace, explosion, and fluid athleticism. Not to belabor this issue, but a few important questions:

1) Why did his athleticism drop off so suddenly from Cleveland to Miami?
The best guess seems to be a combination of (a) age and wear + tear and (b) increased weight and bulk.
On point (a), this seems a reality sadly. Even in your late 20's, especially given LeBron's minutes burden in Clev, you are past your athletic peak (which I feel is between 21 and 25). Although it is interesting that guys like Melo, Iguodala, Gerald Green - explosive wings about the same age as LeBron - don't seem to have changed athletically as much as LeBron has (obviously relative to their baseline levels).
Which brings up point (b); LeBron does seem bulkier than his Cavs days, which can clearly impact his quickness and agility (note, not top-end speed, which seems good as ever, but rather the quick change of directions). It seems part of this is likely intentional as the Heat have asked LeBron to play, essentially, PF more (post-up offensively, guard 4's, etc.) While this style of game isn't as beautiful as Cavs LeBron, it is clearly effective. In fact, I'd like to see LeBron go to work MORE in the high / low post in the playoffs, he seems to have gotten away from it.
---> What do you all think about his athleticism?

2) The athleticism issue becomes more important this year if Wade is hurt
If Wade is a non-factor for the rest of the playoffs (as may very well be the case), LeBron will have to become even more the catalyst on offense and so take on more of the role he did in Cleveland. Can he still be the dynamic juggernaut he was then? Constantly attacking, getting to the rim, sucking in the D to kick to his shooters (for 3's) and bigs (who slip in behind the D for dunks)? I hope he can bring out some vintage "Cavs LeBron" and find much of that energy and explosiveness again, when needed.
I don't think he can be fully as dominant as he was then, but few things will help him not HAVE to:
- Miami has an effective SYSTEM to generate good looks (esp. 3's) off ball-movement, LeBron post-ups, pick+rolls, etc. Cleveland had no such system (much like OKC and the Clippers today) and simply relied on their uber-star (LeBron, Durant, CP3, respectively) to create everything (incidentally, this burden likely contributed to LeBron's current wear and tear; shameful coaching by Mike Brown + roster building by Danny Ferry)
- Bosh is an excellent stretch 5 who will open things up for LeBron and Miami (better than anyone in Cleveland ever did)
- LeBron now is more comfortable scoring in the post AND off the ball (cuts, rolls, etc.)

With the Pacers and Memphis/San Antonio on the horizon, the rest of the post-season should be a true test for what Miami and, especially, LeBron is capable of. If I knew LeBron still had the god-like athleticism of 2008, 2009 (I think his true peak) and 2010, along with the knowledge of the game and teammates he now possesses, I would be supremely confident that he would DOMINATE the rest of the way. LeBron is still the best in the league and I root 100% for him, but I'm not quite as sure LeBron and Miami are untouchable (though I still think they will get it done).

BTW, sorry for the long post, this is actually my first on RealGM! I've been a long time lurker and followed LBJ since his early high school days (I am actually the same age as he and played HS ball at the same time). Thanks for your great work guys!

[SideshowBob]

Honestly, I think the skill progression from last season to this season is so dramatic that this Lebron in 2011's body would be comparable to 09 or 10 anyway. This is also the best he's ever been defensively, though part of that is due to him looking a little better physically than he did last season.

[ThatsWhatIShved]

[quote="SideshowBob"]Honestly, I think the skill progression from last season to this season is so dramatic that this Lebron in 2011's body would be comparable to 09 or 10 anyway. This is also the best he's ever been defensively, though part of that is due to him looking a little better physically than he did last season.[/quote]

This also has to do with the fact that 80% of the league is crippled by injury, and he's being hid on defense more often. It's easy to look good when you are guarding the Mbah Moute's and injury D-League replacements of the league. We will have to wait until Finals to possbily see Lebron against a non injured above average team.

[OnlyOneWay2Play]

Honestly, I think the skill progression from last season to this season is so dramatic that this Lebron in 2011's body would be comparable to 09 or 10 anyway. This is also the best he's ever been defensively, though part of that is due to him looking a little better physically than he did last season.

I hope you're right SideShow, but where is the ability to take over right now? Bulls are on a like 30-8 run and the Heat clearly need LeBron to take over, score, and regain momentum. He just doesn't seem to have the quickness and ability to finish in traffic needed to generate consistent scoring on tough half-court defense. He needs to (a) re-discover the quickness and leaping ability (b) finish using post moves (think Z-Bo) or (c) have confidence in, take, and make jumpers.

(PS - Ignore the ThatsWhatIShved troll)

[JulesWinnfield]

Honestly, I think the skill progression from last season to this season is so dramatic that this Lebron in 2011's body would be comparable to 09 or 10 anyway. This is also the best he's ever been defensively, though part of that is due to him looking a little better physically than he did last season.

I hope you're right SideShow, but where is the ability to take over right now? Bulls are on a like 30-8 run and the Heat clearly need LeBron to take over, score, and regain momentum. He just doesn't seem to have the quickness and ability to finish in traffic needed to generate consistent scoring on tough half-court defense. He needs to (a) re-discover the quickness and leaping ability (b) finish using post moves (think Z-Bo) or (c) have confidence in, take, and make jumpers.

(PS - Ignore the ThatsWhatIShved troll)

C is the biggest issue of all in this postseason, he's just not pulling the trigger enough, and its led to a frustrating lack of assertiveness in general. He is way too selective. Hate to play amateur psych, but I think he cares too much about his FG% at times right now. Efficiency is great, but there's a fine line you have to walk before you neuter some of what makes you the best player in the sport. At times the way he has straddled that line of late has been frustrating

[toodles23]

Yeah, Lebron's definitely been too passive at times in the playoffs. Would've really been helpful to see him get more aggressive during that Bulls run.

And God, have Battier/Chalmers been useless or what? They've sucked badly in the playoffs.

[JulesWinnfield]

And now on cue he opens the half pulling the trigger from three and buries it. Maybe this spurs on a binge

[Mutnt]

I hope you're right SideShow, but where is the ability to take over right now? Bulls are on a like 30-8 run and the Heat clearly need LeBron to take over, score, and regain momentum. He just doesn't seem to have the quickness and ability to finish in traffic needed to generate consistent scoring on tough half-court defense. He needs to (a) re-discover the quickness and leaping ability (b) finish using post moves (think Z-Bo) or (c) have confidence in, take, and make jumpers.

You can't take over games if you don't shoot the ball. Only 1 FGA in the second quarter in this game. He's shown the ability to take over games with his scoring plenty of times this year even though he might not be as good at penetrating as he was in Cleveland. He had 19 points in the 1st half of Game 2, when Miami was down 1-0 for example... The problem is that he just doesn't shoot the basketball enough to take over games. The second problem is that 95% of the time, Miami doesn't need 'taking over', and when they do, they rather execute plays than give the ball to LeBron and say: ''Here you go... now go and score the ball.''

It is what it is... Micheal and Kobe would take matters into their own hands, for better or worse, LeBron's not that type of player, especially when his team is more than capable of scoring with how they're playing now. Same goes for high scoring games... Nowadays, any game when LeBron's going to score 40 or more points will surprise me. Not in the sense that he isn't capable, but just that he doesn't play in the manner needed to achieve that + his team doesn't need him to do it.

[OnlyOneWay2Play]

Here we go, this is what is needed. LeBron needs to be diversified in his offense: shoot the 3 when it's open, pump fake and drive hard, post open when the floor is spaced.

Meanwhile, Boozer + Noah are destroying Bosh, Haslem, Battier and Jimmy Butler is straight up better at every aspect of basketball than Dwyane Wade (now and in the future I think).

[PCProductions]

Has Lebron forgotten how to finish at the rim?

[giordunk]

Imagine how many LeBron hate threads there would be if LeBron had a performance like this this time last year.

[LeChosen1]

Lebrons Jumpshot has dissapered once again

His foul rate has increased but He can barely score anything when creating for himself(Chicago deserves praise though)

Not gonna get easier with Indiana, Hope He shows some more 30pt games

[WinisKing]

Very underwhelming series, some of these drives are honestly lower percentage shots than his jumpers. Doesn't look great going foward for him against Indiana and Paul George/Roy Hibbert. That Goat peak is probably out of reach