Let the tank for Wiggins debate begin... (article)

[Marvin Martian]

I think trading Gay for a lotto pick will be farely easy, but it has to be done before the season start (i.e. with a team like Charlotte), the longer we wait the more teams will value their pick as they start to pile up the L's. I would try and trade Demar for a pick in this year's draft, I just don't think any team will give up a lotto pick from 2014 for him.

No it is not easy. In fact it is pure fantasy. If MEM could secure that kind of return for Gay, they would have done it instead of taking our crap package. MEM may be cheap, but they are not dumb.


The only player that can guarantee us a high 2014 lotto pick is Jonas, and in my opinion, that isn't a bad deal when you consider how deep the 2013 C draft class is, and the potential playoff in a "star studded" 2014 class.

They unloaded an underperforming, max contract player for a young prospect with good advanced stats and a replacement SF. Not necessarily a crap package.

As for the 2013 C draft class, Im not sure what that has to do with Jonas or the Raptors or the 2014 draft, given we are unlikely to have a pick in this year's draft.

Finally, I dont see any lotto team trading for Gay for the exact same reason we're looking to acquire a pick in the 2014 draft. Charlotte can resign Henderson if they want a wing with similar production and still suck and still have their pick while continuing to develop MKG.

MEM is overloaded at the 4 and they did not need another one. They asked for Ross first for a reason. They have enough big men.

2013 C class is relevant to those who are looking for a replacement C prospect that can be acquired with a decent asset in this hilariously weak draft. To me it doesn't matter. If you believe Wiggins is truly the best prospect since Lebron James, you can afford to lose Jonas anyway and wait 2 years until we have cap space and build a better and more cost effective core.

I do not expect any lotto team to trade for Gay and as I have said before, it is a pipe dream to expect a high quality pick in return.

[isyed]

I think its fairly easy to start the tank. All we hope for is a tough schedule. Let Casey coach the final year. As soon as we have a bad record, say 3-7 or 2-8 we fire Casey. Johnny Davis has been interim head coach enough times. He becomes our Head coach and heads start rolling. We package our Lowry and Gay. Send away Bargs. Try to acquire as many young players and vets on final year contract as possible. Amnesty Klieza in the off season and give as many shots as possible to Val and Demar. If we still survive and manage to reach close to .500 by the trade deadline then it probably means that Demar's doing pretty well. at that point you should be able to trade him for a 2014 pick. Maybe not top 5 but a 6-14 type pick. Tank away.

[40 Guzzle]

Wiggins & Randle's squad met this year and for stretches even guarded each other, the consensus was that Andrew won the matchup

[Raps in 4]

If this draft is as good as people are saying, there will be plenty of talent beyond the top 10 picks.

Need elite talent.

And in historically good drafts, elite talent often falls out of the lotto.

No, it doesn't.

[Marvin Martian]

I think its fairly easy to start the tank. All we hope for is a tough schedule. Let Casey coach the final year. As soon as we have a bad record, say 3-7 or 2-8 we fire Casey. Johnny Davis has been interim head coach enough times. He becomes our Head coach and heads start rolling. We package our Lowry and Gay. Send away Bargs. Try to acquire as many young players and vets on final year contract as possible. Amnesty Klieza in the off season and give as many shots as possible to Val and Demar. If we still survive and manage to reach close to .500 by the trade deadline then it probably means that Demar's doing pretty well. at that point you should be able to trade him for a 2014 pick. Maybe not top 5 but a 6-14 type pick. Tank away.

[WhatsaTDot]

No it is not easy. In fact it is pure fantasy. If MEM could secure that kind of return for Gay, they would have done it instead of taking our crap package. MEM may be cheap, but they are not dumb.


The only player that can guarantee us a high 2014 lotto pick is Jonas, and in my opinion, that isn't a bad deal when you consider how deep the 2013 C draft class is, and the potential playoff in a "star studded" 2014 class.

They unloaded an underperforming, max contract player for a young prospect with good advanced stats and a replacement SF. Not necessarily a crap package.

As for the 2013 C draft class, Im not sure what that has to do with Jonas or the Raptors or the 2014 draft, given we are unlikely to have a pick in this year's draft.

Finally, I dont see any lotto team trading for Gay for the exact same reason we're looking to acquire a pick in the 2014 draft. Charlotte can resign Henderson if they want a wing with similar production and still suck and still have their pick while continuing to develop MKG.

MEM is overloaded at the 4 and they did not need another one. They asked for Ross first for a reason. They have enough big men.

2013 C class is relevant to those who are looking for a replacement C prospect that can be acquired with a decent asset in this hilariously weak draft. To me it doesn't matter. If you believe Wiggins is truly the best prospect since Lebron James, you can afford to lose Jonas anyway and wait 2 years until we have cap space and build a better and more cost effective core.

I do not expect any lotto team to trade for Gay and as I have said before, it is a pipe dream to expect a high quality pick in return.

Well being overloaded at a position isnt necessarily a bad thing, especially if your team is already winning. The same reasoning many of us wanted to draft Drummond. As for Memphis asking for Ross over Davis, (a) I believe its speculation, (b) some of us might argue they got the better player anyways.

And whilst I believe that Wiggins is the best prospect in a long time, we're not guaranteed to draft him simply by unloading Jonas. From a statistical perspective, thats a really big gamble (i.e losing Jonas for say...Smart). That being said, I would also trade Jonas in a second if another team offered me the 2014 #1 pick post-lottery.

[Marvin Martian]

In hindsight, MEM got the better player, even though Ross was viewed as having higher value at the time (and filling a need at SG should Tony Allen leave this year). The difference with MEM and the Drummond blunder is that MEM already had established big man talent; we did not. BC believed otherwise and continue to put blind faith and too much money into a foundation that has produced nothing but disappointment.

You're right in that Wiggins is not guaranteed. But no sane GM is going to give us Wiggins for Jonas post lottery. Considering how the rest of the team has negative trade value, this would be the only way to increase the talent level of the squad without using voodoo magic.

Even if we miss out on Wiggins, we would still have a shot a Parker, Randle, Smart, and Harrison; Pretty good consolation prizes that mitigate the risk.

[WyseGuy]

Im sorry but your assessment of Lebron coming into the League is completely off base. He was an extremely complete player even as a rookie. While he had not yet developed a consistent mid range or post up game, he already possessed a solid handle and outstanding court vision to go along with his unparalled physical tools. To reduce him to "essentially just a dunker" is to ignore the fact that he already possessed (and took advantage of) an extremely diverse skillset even before playing his first NBA game. There was never a lull where he waited for him to "put it all together. That type of statement applies to Marvin Williams and players of his ilk.

Are you kidding me? I guess you don't know how Pro Sports work. Rookies come in flawed, work on their game and elevate themselves to super stardom, even the most highly touted. If LeBron didn't need to put in work he would have 10 MVPs, 10 Championships. This is crap and you know it. LeBron, MJ, Kobe, THEY ALL PUT IN THE WORK which is why they are where they are today. They possessed the tools, worked on making themselves better and now you see the results.

You may want to remove LBJ's nuts from your mouth bro.

LOL. buddy. Of course rookies come in flawed. However, to say that Lebron came in as flawed as your avg rook is ludicrous. You clearly said that coming into the league Lebron was just a dunker who needed to put it all together. Clearly this is minimizing the talents he had coming into the league. Possessing a relatively complete game for a rookie (which LBJ did) is a far cry from winning championships and MVPs. You cant just equivocate the two. Obviously he put in more work, I clearly said he added a mid range game as well as a post game, and he became a much, much better defender. However, that is not the point. The point is that you clearly stated that he was just a dunker who "just needed to put it all together." That statement implies that he was a blank canvas, which he was not. He already possessed a solid handle and uncanny court vision.

If you dont think that Lebron possessed a more complete game than 99.9% of the rookie's who come into this league, maybe you should remove your own nuts from your mouth "bro"

[dTox]

No it is not easy. In fact it is pure fantasy. If MEM could secure that kind of return for Gay, they would have done it instead of taking our crap package. MEM may be cheap, but they are not dumb.


The only player that can guarantee us a high 2014 lotto pick is Jonas, and in my opinion, that isn't a bad deal when you consider how deep the 2013 C draft class is, and the potential playoff in a "star studded" 2014 class.

Memphis shot them self in the foot by trying to trade him at his lowest value, since aquiring him, he's been fairly decent, even put up a decent PER with our team and played pretty good defense. His value is alot better now than it was before (esp. since another year just went by and only 2 left on his current deal). Like I told another poster, If a washed up Gerald Wallace can get you a pick like Damien Lillard why wouldn't there be a possibility with a much much better player in Gay.

Unless you're accidentally giving BC a metric ton of credit for swindling Memphis, no... Gay is not worth remotely close to a lotto pick.

You can argue his merits as a borderline all-star in a good year, but his value will always be massively diminished by the fact that he gets paid about twice his value. You can't ignore that in a league with a cap. Raps didn't get him for Calderon and Davis by mistake. On top of that, Gay was available for months with no takers.

To answer both of you, let me start by saying I am against Gay being on this team and think he's highly overpaid. With that said, I also think he can net us a lottery pick, there will be teams in the draft looking to win now, there always has been in almost every draft. I brought up the Celtics for example when they traded a lotto pick (Roy) for Telfair, Nets trading 6th pick (ended up being Lillard) for Wallace, Boston trading Allen for 5th pick in OKC...I'm not saying this is guaranteed but its a fairly reasonable expectation that Gay can net us a top 10 pick, not top three but closer to 5-10 range in 2014 draft. He's overpaid yes, but he also had a decent run with the Raps putting up a 18.2 PER and is a pretty good defender. I'm sure our GM can sell the opposing team that the Raps had a .500 record with him on the team, ahough it was against weak/injured teams. Maybe I'm thinking of the situation at a glass half full scenario but I don't think its to far fetched to expect a 5-10 pick for R. Gay.

[Just Win Baby]

Simple fact is, Rudy will not go for fair market value. Bad contract + the fact that we JUST traded for him and now want to trade him may make some teams wary. A lot of the teams who have picks are most likely also looking at the 2014 draft. I think our team could potentially be very dangerous IF it makes the playoffs next year so in my eyes tanking is not an option next year unless we have a bad start like this year.

[yk24]

If we tank then we will probably trade EVERYONE and start absolutely from ground up.