Westbrook and the Thunder

[sp6r=underrated]

It looks like they are going down in 5 games and it could have easily been a sweep. This is a Thunder team that had a monster RS and were clearly playing at the level of a team that could win a title. The Griz obviously are a great defensive team but this victory raises a few questions.

1. Did people underestimate the value of Westbrook to the Thunder offense?

2. Did you underestimate the value of Westbrook to the Thunder offense?

3. How much of OKC's offensive struggles are the Griz defense?

[ronnymac2]

Yes, people underestimated Westbrook's importance to OKC's offense and overall level of play.

I had Westbrook as a top-4 player last year. Had him close to that this year before the injury. I've been preaching to people that Westbrook is a monster force. Maybe not as good as KD, but a dominant force and indispensable piece for OKC.

The Grizzlies are an excellent defense team. Without Westbrook, Durant has to carry a meh offense that it built around two stars. It's not really fair to Durant.

[An Unbiased Fan]

People overrate Durant. He's a great scorer, but average in other areas. Westbrook gave them another scorer, but also a playmaker.

KD's not the type of wing who you can create for others, so he needs a distributor next to him.

[JordansBulls]

Honestly had them losing to the Grizzlies or Clippers with a fully healthy roster in either case.

[bondom34]

Yes, people underestimated Westbrook's importance to OKC's offense and overall level of play.

I had Westbrook as a top-4 player last year. Had him close to that this year before the injury. I've been preaching to people that Westbrook is a monster force. Maybe not as good as KD, but a dominant force and indispensable piece for OKC.

The Grizzlies are an excellent defense team. Without Westbrook, Durant has to carry a meh offense that it built around two stars. It's not really fair to Durant.

[Vinsanity420]

A Top 10 player was replaced by Reggie Jackson... I would've been more interested if he were replaced by a guy like Mike Conley. Grizzlies winning the series was expected to happen, honestly. This series sort of reinforced that Kevin Durant needs a creator of some sort @ PG, because he's not capable of doing it like LeBron is... and that's what will always separate them as players.

The question more was - "Is Russell Westbrook maximizing OKC's offensive potential?", not "Is Russell Westbrook a net negative to OKC?"

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't get these Durant and Thunder threads.

How on earth does this change the perception of Durant at all? How does this even change the perception of Westbrook?

General census around Durant is that hes the second best player, third at worst by most people, a notable gap between him and James (#1 player).

Westbrook is widely considered to be a top ten player, by nearly everyone. Even people who do not like Westbrook and would not put him in top 10 (usually for irrational reasons of him being too aggressive), would admit that he is a star at the very least, not much different from Derrick Rose.

The Thunder are a team that have only three people who can create their shot. Westbrook, Durant and Martin (and the degree to how Martin can create his shot is highly questionable considering he's barely played any meaningful games in his career).



I'm sorry, but is anyone actually surprised by the results here? Should the Thunder have done better when Westbrook who is really the only other potent offensive player on the team aside from Durant is gone? Should the Thunder have magically gotten better considering a huge chunk of their payrole just went out the window for the rest of the season? I really do not get the perception here. Should Kevin Martin as the second option be helping the Thunder tear it up, Derrick Fisher is out playing almost the entire roster on offense. I mean where is this offensive talent on the Thunder that people are getting these expectations from?

Hey, I wonder how good the Grizzlies would be if they did not have Z-Bo. Probably not as good as they were before! Marc Gasol must be overrated.

[Doctor MJ]

I think HeartBreak said probably the most important point but to go a little further in one direction:

If a 60 win team loses it's 2nd best player and consensus All-NBAer, do we really expect it to have a good shot of beating a 56-win team that got significantly better after a mid-season trade?

Along those lines, I'd like to see where the Grizz end up this post-season before I make any big conclusions. It wouldn't have surprised me at all if the Thunder had taken the series before the series started because I wasn't yet that sold on the Grizz. Right now the Grizz look really dang good. If they stay looking really dang good going forward, then to me this series says more about them than the injured Thunder.

[SideshowBob]

Memphis pre-trade (Gay/Gasol/Allen/Randolph/Conley IN)

+5.77 SRS, +0.6 Offense, -5.7 Defense (36 G)

Memphis post-trade (Prince/Gasol/Allen/Randolph/Conley IN)

+4.87 SRS, -0.7 Offense, -5.8 Defense (31 G)

OKC RS (82 G)

+9.15 SRS, +6.6 Offense, -3.2 Defense

OKC PS With Westbrook (2 G)

+16.7 SRS, +8.0 Offense, -11.8 Defense

OKC PS Without Westbrook (9 G)

+2.4 SRS, +1.1 Offense, -0.9 Defense

[E-Balla]

Your acting like OKC showed even a glimmer of hope. The only series less competitive was Miami-Milwaukee and LA-San Antonio. No one expected that steep dip in play of a +9 team. They were horrible without WB (who most had as barely in the top 10). With a loss tonight they're 2-6 without him against two teams that aren't exactly world beaters.

I'm happy this happened really. People really underestimate what agressiveness could bring to a team (I had Westbrook tied at 7 with Tony Parker before going down) even when completely out of control. I honestly believe the Thunder without KD and with WB would play better.

[SideshowBob]

The ~4 point offensive dropoff should have been expected with Westbrook out, but they've also played weaker than usual defensively in these 8 games.

[E-Balla]

Well even though he's overly aggressive Westbrook's pressure on the ball can lead to a lot of dumb mistakes by the offense. Wouldn't expect a steep drop but I'd definetly expect a drop.

[SideshowBob]

Spoiler:

Memphis pre-trade (Gay/Gasol/Allen/Randolph/Conley IN)

+5.77 SRS, +0.6 Offense, -5.7 Defense (36 G)

Memphis post-trade (Prince/Gasol/Allen/Randolph/Conley IN)

+4.87 SRS, -0.7 Offense, -5.8 Defense (31 G)

OKC RS (82 G)

+9.15 SRS, +6.6 Offense, -3.2 Defense

OKC PS With Westbrook (2 G)

+16.7 SRS, +8.0 Offense, -11.8 Defense

OKC PS Without Westbrook (8 G) not including tonight's game

+3.1 SRS, +2.2 Offense, -0.1 Defense

Updated with tonight

Memphis pre-trade (Gay/Gasol/Allen/Randolph/Conley IN)

+5.77 SRS, +0.6 Offense, -5.7 Defense (36 G)

Memphis post-trade (Prince/Gasol/Allen/Randolph/Conley IN)

+4.87 SRS, -0.7 Offense, -5.8 Defense (31 G)

OKC RS (82 G)

+9.15 SRS, +6.6 Offense, -3.2 Defense

OKC PS With Westbrook (2 G)

+16.7 SRS, +8.0 Offense, -11.8 Defense

OKC PS Without Westbrook (9 G)

+2.4 SRS, +1.1 Offense, -0.9 Defense

[NaturalThunder]

Your acting like OKC showed even a glimmer of hope. The only series less competitive was Miami-Milwaukee and LA-San Antonio. No one expected that steep dip in play of a +9 team. They were horrible without WB (who most had as barely in the top 10). With a loss tonight they're 2-6 without him against two teams that aren't exactly world beaters.

I'm happy this happened really. People really underestimate what agressiveness could bring to a team (I had Westbrook tied at 7 with Tony Parker before going down) even when completely out of control. I honestly believe the Thunder without KD and with WB would play better.

In all 4 losses, OKC had the ball in a one possession game in teh final minute. How is that not a competitive series?

I'm going to sound like a huge homer, but OKC wins this series probably in 6, maybe even 5, games with Westbrook. It's not like they were beating us by 10-15 every night.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Durant's inability to create for others, and his one-dimensional scoring was certainly exposed.

[NaturalThunder]

Well even though he's overly aggressive Westbrook's pressure on the ball can lead to a lot of dumb mistakes by the offense. Wouldn't expect a steep drop but I'd definetly expect a drop.

Then you're severely underestimating or underrating the pressure his constant dribble penetration can put on a defense over the course of a game. And you're also not taking into account that the defense can't just stick their best perimeter defender on Durant the whole game while also sending one or two other defenders to him every time he catches the ball and puts it on the floor.

[NaturalThunder]

Durant's inability to create for others, and his one-dimensional scoring was certainly exposed.

This was the first game of the series he didn't have 6+ assists. And if Fisher had hit a couple of wide-open 3's he would've gotten there again. Tonight was far-and-away his worst ball-handling/distributing game. The Grizzlies just loaded-up on him tonight, sending 2 or 3 defenders at him almost every time he put the ball on the floor.

And what one-dimensional scoring? Who else in the league, besides LeBron, wouldn't have a hard time consistently getting to the paint off the bounce against this defense?

[E-Balla]

Your acting like OKC showed even a glimmer of hope. The only series less competitive was Miami-Milwaukee and LA-San Antonio. No one expected that steep dip in play of a +9 team. They were horrible without WB (who most had as barely in the top 10). With a loss tonight they're 2-6 without him against two teams that aren't exactly world beaters.

I'm happy this happened really. People really underestimate what agressiveness could bring to a team (I had Westbrook tied at 7 with Tony Parker before going down) even when completely out of control. I honestly believe the Thunder without KD and with WB would play better.

In all 4 losses, OKC had the ball in a one possession game in teh final minute. How is that not a competitive series?

I'm going to sound like a huge homer, but OKC wins this series probably in 6, maybe even 5, games with Westbrook. It's not like they were beating us by 10-15 every night.

With Westbrook I agree that OKC would win. I don't think those games were really competitive though. In all those games besides the OT game I never doubted that Memphis would win. Actually in game 1 I thought Memphis would win. IDK this is really a "feeling" thing. All because the boxscore was close doesn't mean the game was really in doubt.

[E-Balla]

Well even though he's overly aggressive Westbrook's pressure on the ball can lead to a lot of dumb mistakes by the offense. Wouldn't expect a steep drop but I'd definetly expect a drop.

Then you're severely underestimating or underrating the pressure his constant dribble penetration can put on a defense over the course of a game. And you're also not taking into account that the defense can't just stick their best perimeter defender on Durant the whole game while also sending one or two other defenders to him every time he catches the ball and puts it on the floor.

I'm talking about his defense...

[orangeparka]

Durant's inability to create for others, and his one-dimensional scoring was certainly exposed.

This was the first game of the series he didn't have 6+ assists. And if Fisher had hit a couple of wide-open 3's he would've gotten there again. Tonight was far-and-away his worst ball-handling/distributing game. The Grizzlies just loaded-up on him tonight, sending 2 or 3 defenders at him almost every time he put the ball on the floor.

And what one-dimensional scoring? Who else in the league, besides LeBron, wouldn't have a hard time consistently getting to the paint off the bounce against this defense?

Even LeBron would.