Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season

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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#41 » by ElGee » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:30 am

Dr Positivity wrote:I'm voting based on how many wins I think the player produced. So while 91 Jordan may be "better", by nature of 96 Jordan playing on a better team and specifically with a better defense, he gets credit for more wins in this case.


Hmm - just to clarify, you should have the better version of Jordan as producing more wins on a random, average team. Based on the survey criteria, this is a goodness > value situation. Dave DeBuscherre and Rasheed Wallace may have been worth 20 wins to the 69 Knicks/04 Pistons, but what the survey is asking is how many wins were those players worth to a random, average team?

I have no problem if you want to use the secret sauce formula or any method you prefer, but just be clear on what the question is asking. Based on your answer, you are very much saying 96 Jordan was peak Jordan. Perfectly fine to believe that, it'd just be nice if your answer reflected what you believe (which is the goal of the survey).
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#42 » by ElGee » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:42 pm

Michael Jordan-related In/Out (WOWY)

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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#43 » by colts18 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:44 pm

Elgee, do you have the O rating/D rating breakdown for Rodman? IIRC, he impacted the offense more than defense.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#44 » by JordansBulls » Mon Apr 1, 2013 1:47 am

85 - +9.0 WS (50.0)
86 - +4.5 WS (45.5)
87 - +15.0 WS (56.0)
88 - +18.0 WS (59.0)
89 - +19.0 WS (60.0)
90 - +20.0 WS (61.0)
91 - +22.0 WS (63.0)
92 - +21.0 WS (62.0)
93 - +19.0 WS (60.0)
95 - +6.0 WS (47.0)
96 - +20.0 WS (61.0)
97 - +18.0 WS (59.0)
98 - +17.0 WS (58.0)
02 - +4.0 WS (45.0)
03 - +3.0 WS (44.0)
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#45 » by Gregoire » Mon Apr 1, 2013 12:23 pm

85 - +8.0 WS
86 - +3.5 WS
87 - +15.0 WS
88 - +20.0 WS
89 - +21.0 WS
90 - +22.0 WS
91 - +22.0 WS
92 - +21.0 WS
93 - +20.0 WS
95 - +5.0 WS
96 - +18.0 WS
97 - +18.0 WS
98 - +17.0 WS
02 - +4.0 WS
03 - +3.0 WS
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#46 » by ardee » Mon Apr 1, 2013 3:18 pm

ElGee I think you should decide on either SRS or Wins, just my opinion. Tabulating it will be really difficult, for one. I think SRS is the way to go because SRS is a more accurate representation of team strength than wins (not that I think SRS is flawless, 01 Lakers, 12 Heat, you see a lot like that, just there's less of that than in W-L).
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#47 » by E-Balla » Mon Apr 1, 2013 4:04 pm

ardee wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:SRS:

1985 +2.0
1986 +3.5
1987 +3.5
1988 +6.0
1989 +6.0
1990 +7.0
1991 +7.0
1992 +6.5
1993 +6.5
1995 +3.5
1996 +6.0
1997 +5.5
1998 +5.5
2002 +0.5
2003 +1.5


Do you have '91 Jordan as the GOAT peak or in the top three? 7.0 is kinda low.

Missed this...

I think no one is worth +9 or something around there. Let's say the Bulls without MJ was at least a +2 team. They were +10 without him and those Bulls teams weren't super slackers. I think with every star the supporting casts get completely underrated.

And 91 Jordan is in my top 3. I'm not actually sure if 91 is better than 90 though. They're even though.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#48 » by oolalaa » Mon Apr 1, 2013 4:13 pm

I think people are getting confused. '93 Jordan wasn't worse than '92 Jordan just because the Bulls won 10 less games. Just because Jordan coasted a little during the MEANINGLESS regular season and turned it up in the playoffs doesn't mean he was "worth" any less wins, it doesn't mean he wasn't as good. How about just doing a simple rating out of 10? (0 being average) e.g....

'85 - 6.5
'86 - 7.0
'87 - 7.5
'88 - 8.5
'89 - 9.0
'90 - 9.5
'91 - 9.5
'92 - 9.0
'93 - 9.0
'95 - 7.5
'96 - 8.5
'97 - 8.0
'98 - 8.0

Kobe, as a comaprison....

'99 - 5.5
'00 - 6.0
'01 - 7.5
'02 - 7.0
'03 - 8.0
'04 - 7.0
'05 - 7.5
'06 - 8.5
'07 - 8.5
'08 - 8.0
'09 - 8.0
'10 - 7.5
'11 - 6.5
'12 - 7.0
'13 - 7.5
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#49 » by ElGee » Mon Apr 1, 2013 6:09 pm

colts18 wrote:Elgee, do you have the O rating/D rating breakdown for Rodman? IIRC, he impacted the offense more than defense.


Year ORtg DRtg
(93) -1.82 -4.72
(95) 5.73 3.97
(96) 3.47 0.49
(97) 2.50 -1.15

I had a post somewhere noting the OREB% trends of his teams. Lots of value on offense from scooping up those extra possessions...
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#50 » by Gregoire » Mon Apr 1, 2013 6:52 pm

Gregoire wrote:85 - +8.0 WS
86 - +3.5 WS
87 - +15.0 WS
88 - +20.0 WS
89 - +21.0 WS
90 - +22.0 WS
91 - +22.0 WS
92 - +21.0 WS
93 - +20.0 WS
95 - +5.0 WS
96 - +18.0 WS
97 - +18.0 WS
98 - +17.0 WS
02 - +4.0 WS
03 - +3.0 WS

Now I decided to give it in SRS form. Its more simple for me.
So,In terms of SRS

1985 +3.5
1986 +3.5
1987 +5.5
1988 +7.0
1989 +8.0
1990 +9.5
1991 +9.5
1992 +9.0
1993 +9.0
1995 +5.5
1996 +7.5
1997 +7.5
1998 +6.5
2002 +1.5
2003 +1.0
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#51 » by thebottomline » Fri Apr 5, 2013 7:11 am

1985: +4.0
1986: +3.0
1987: +5.5
1988: +8.0
1989: +8.0
1990: +9.0
1991: +9.0
1992: +8.5
1993: +8.0
1995: +5.0
1996: +7.5
1997: +7.0
1998: +6.0
2002: +1.0
2003: +0.5
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#52 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 16, 2013 6:58 am

DavidStern wrote:Not only sample size (but as you said - for finals teams we have +16 games samples, so good enough), but also matchups are big issue here, because in playoffs teams play with very limited number of opponents and some are easier for particular teams than other, but SRS "doesn't see" it. (for example for Chicago Cavs were always one of these easy matchups.)


1993 CHI pts differential
regular: 6.3
playoffs: 5.8
vs ATL (-0.7 SRS) +16.4
vs CLE (+6.3 SRS) +8.5
vs NYK (+5.9 SRS) +4.7
vs PHO (+6.3 SRS) 0.0 (without Ceballos, so their strength in finals was in reality lower than SRS indicates)


Sorry to bump an old thread but I have to strongly agree with DavidStern that there should be a heavy presumption in favor of evaluating teams by season long SRS rather than focusing on teams best runs.

Matchups can warp PS SRS performance dramatically. As an example during the Lakers last run they always matched up great with the Jazz who had massive problems with their frontline. Second, one extreme blowout totally warps the numbers. Take the 98 finals, by PD it looks like a total domination with the Bulls winning by an average of 8 points a game. In reality outside of G3 the series was extremely close.

I hear a few reasons typically brought up for discarding season long SRS.

1. Injuries: this is legitimate when the injury in question is a fluke type injury (a sprained ankle, broken nose) that doesn't indicate problems with the durability of the players. This is an illegitimate excuse when the player in question is legitimately fragile (Manu as an example). Building your team around fragile players does lower the ceiling of the club.
2. Coasting: this is generally a garbage excuse and is just tossed out with little evidence. There should be extreme prejudice against the coasting argument. The exception that proves the rule is Shaq and the 01 season. Shaq is a guy who was known to be (i) legitimately lazy, (ii) indifferent to the RS, (iii) was coming off his personal masterpiece the 00 season, (iv) had enough charisma that his attitude would rub off on his teammates and (v) the Lakers consistently blew teams out game after game, against a very high level of competition who all played different styles. There is sufficient evidence to at least support a contention of coasting.

By contrast in most of the other years were people make the coasting argument there is little reason to believe it nor is any evidence brought forth to explain why they were coasting.

BTW, he's right about the 93 bulls. They weren't on the level of the rest of their title teams. They were still an above average title team which shows you how amazing the 93 Bulls.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#53 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 16, 2013 5:47 pm

This is such an interesting project that despite my prior message I'm going to give it a shot. The guidelines are again (i) player added to an average team, and (ii) how they played at the end of the season.

MJ was generally very consistent year to year so he is a good player to begin with.

1985 3.0
1986 0.5
1987 5.5
1988 6.5
1989 6.5
1990 10
1991 10
1992 10
1993 9
1995 3
1996 9
1997 8.5
1998 6
2002 1
2003 0
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#54 » by Double Clutch » Thu May 16, 2013 7:47 pm

The 1992-93 Chicago Bulls DID coast in the regular season so I would definitely say their playoff dominance gives a better and more accurate indication of the quality of the team.

First of all, the Dream Team practices and the Americas qualifying tournament kicked off just a week or two after the finals and the Olympics would continue until 10th Aug so their two best players did not get as much time off in the off-season as they normally would have. This applies to a number of Dream Teamers including Karl Malone, John Stockton and Patrick Ewing as well.

BARCELONA BRUISES
This is not to suggest that a telethon is in order, but it has come to pass that a few of the Olympic Dream Teamers—remember them?—were adversely affected by their extended season. Not all of them. Certainly not the scourge of Angola.Charles Barkley, who is having a potential MVP year with the Suns.
But consider a few of the other Dream Teamers: The Blazers'Clyde Drexler underwent arthroscopic surgery on his right knee on Sept. 18 and has been slowed ever since (he has missed nine games). He says the surgery might not have been necessary if he had stayed home from Barcelona to rehabilitate the knee, which had bothered him much of last season. Knick center Patrick Ewing got off to a slow start—he didn't block a shot until the sixth game of the season—mostly because he did not have enough time between the end of the Olympics on Aug. 9 and the start of training camp on Oct. 9 to rest the left ankle that he had sprained badly in last season's Eastern Conference semifinals against the Bulls. And both of the Bulls' Olympians, Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, have complained this season of physical and mental fatigue. "Even with all the pressure I would've taken [for not playing]," says Jordan, "I wouldn't have played if I knew then what I know now." Neither Bull is having a bad season—Jordan leads the league, after all, with a 32.2-point average, and Pippen leads the Bulls in assists (6.8) and is second in rebounding (8.0) and scoring (18.8)—but both have been more inconsistent than usual. In consecutive losses last week to the Lakers and the Cavs, Jordan shot a combined three for 17 in the fourth quarter. That sounds suspiciously like fatigue.
The Dream Teamers should not expect many sympathy cards. "From what I heard they did over there," says one general manager, "I had a tougher summer dealing with agents and mowing my lawn." That attitude is understandable.
But so is the fatigue. Even the Jazz's Karl Malone, the lone Dream Teamer so far to volunteer for duty in the '96 Olympic crusade, says he feels the effects of what amounted to a 10-month season.
"I don't expect anyone to feel bad for us," says Malone, "but that doesn't mean it's not a factor."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

As a result of fatigue, the Bulls also did not use their vaunted pressure defense as much during the regular season.

But consider that Jackson's Bulls are heading for a third straight title not long after it was generally agreed it was too hard to keep a team motivated in this big-money era to win twice. Riley and Daly accomplished that and never got credit until they left.

But consider, also, that the Bulls remain the team to beat in the NBA with only about a quarter of the season left and that this is what Jackson has had to deal with:

U.S. Olympic Dream Teamers Jordan and Pippen are tired after a short summer, so Jackson has had to curtail the team's pressure defense. If the Bulls do win, it will be because they had the energy left to play that defense in the playoffs.

Jackson has had two-fifths of his starting lineup-Bill Cartwright and John Paxson-out much of the season with injuries. He had starters doubting B.J. Armstrong could play starting point guard. He has had all three backup centers asking for trades at one time or another. He has had Pippen asking to go on the injured list because of a painful ankle and Horace Grant laboring in silence with knee problems. He has had injuries and ineffective play from his key off-season acquisition, Rodney McCray. He has had Jordan, despite excellent play, openly wishing the regular season were over and looking forward to the playoffs.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993 ... il-jackson

As you can see above, they also had injuries to deal with and a few chemistry issues early on as well since it was rumored the starters felt Armstrong was too selfish however most of these concerns were dealt with come playoff time. Horace Grant also complained this year (money and spotlight was an issue) as Jordan and Pippen had practices off and he felt they received preferential treatment that he deserved as well. But come playoff time, they were able to put their differences aside and work as a team.

Last but not least, Jordan himself admitted the regular season was boring and they were anxious to get to the playoffs.

Rome News-Tribune - Apr 30, 1993
We're anxious to get the playoffs going; the regular season has been a boring scenario," Jordan said after Thusday's practice."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0u ... oing&hl=en

Some quotes by the rest of the team giving credence to this theory:

The Bulls have no hesitation admitting that, in many ways, they have merely been biding their time this season, waiting for the playoffs to begin.

"Phil has done a job trying to motivate us during the regular season," Scott Williams says frankly, "but we know that the only thing that really matters to us is a third championship ring."

Jackson says that more than anything, cold, hard reality dictated the course of this season.

"Last season had a different energy altogether because we were healthy except for Bill (Cartwright) breaking his hand early in the season," he says. "We were right there and raring to go and so all our energy toward the games was there. But this year we realized, hey, we might have to take second or third place because we have guys who can't physically make it through the season. We were willing to take that chance and have some time to allow guys to rejuvenate their bodies.

"We anticipated we would come together in April and hopefully make a run to get ourselves together again so we could go into the playoffs with momentum. That's what's important."

If it has made this season less "fun," as Scottie Pippen suggests, then so be it. "Last season was a lot of fun because we had the challenge of trying to win 70 games, everyone stayed healthy and we were going for our second championship," Pippen says. "This year it hasn't been as much fun for us during the regular season because we've had guys banged up and it's been a long three years and a tough season for us, so the playoffs are something we've really been looking forward to."

Paxson agrees: "That's been kind of our attitude all year long. And I don't want that to sound like we've gone through the season not caring, because we have. But it's been hard for us to circle big games on our schedule, and it's not tough for other teams to find big games. And, of course, we're a big game for everyone."

Williams, for one, isn't worried. "This is the most focused team I've ever been on when it comes to competitive nature and when we have something we really have to play for," he says.

And while the Bulls may not possess the same ability to "turn it on" that characterized the '91-92 team during the regular season, Pippen says fatigue should not interfere with playing solid basketball.


"The enthusiasm of the playoffs brings a lot of energy in itself, so I can't see that as a problem," he says. "Normally, you can always get yourself going."

At the same time, the Bulls are quick to caution against expecting anything different from last year's playoffs, which were agonizing to watch, with 22 games needed for the title, and no picnic to play.

"We made it look too easy the first time around," says Paxson. "It's a grind."

"That first year was an unbelievable run that couldn't have been written any better," says B.J. Armstrong. "The unfortunate part is that after that, everyone expected us to always do that well and measured us by that standard of excellence. But realistically, last year was what playoff basketball is all about."

Now they face it all over again. The challenge by ripe newcomers, the determination by stubborn contenders, the uncertainty of it all.

"The regular season is a race, a great race," says Jackson, "but when you come down to the end of the year, it's a sprint and you just have to make it through. Everything boils down to two weeks of motivation, 10 days to start off, then the next two weeks, then two more weeks, then two more weeks and you keep building up to this crescendo. Is it going to be over or not? Can we sustain it? And will we be the last one left standing?"

It is all waiting to be played out, to be written, catalogued and documented. Jordan can hardly wait.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993 ... hip-team/2

Due to the above, I'd be reluctant to be overly critical of the regular season Jordan and the Bulls had. In such a year, I'd certainly weigh their playoff performance more heavily than I normally would especially considering the fact they coasted didn't come to bite them later on. I have also talked about how several teams after logging in 2-3 deep postseason/championship runs wore down (1991 Pistons, 1993 Blazers, 1996 Rockets, 1999 Jazz, 2003 Lakers ect) due to a variety of reasons (though there's obviously exceptions as well) so that in a way makes the Bulls accomplishments this year even more impressive to me.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#55 » by Gregoire » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:12 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:This is such an interesting project that despite my prior message I'm going to give it a shot. The guidelines are again (i) player added to an average team, and (ii) how they played at the end of the season.

MJ was generally very consistent year to year so he is a good player to begin with.

1985 3.0
1986 0.5
1987 5.5
1988 6.5
1989 6.5
1990 10
1991 10
1992 10
1993 9
1995 3
1996 9
1997 8.5
1998 6
2002 1
2003 0

IMO he was not worse in 93 than in 92
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#56 » by nolunch » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:51 pm

Before getting coached by Phil, MJ was just another T-mac, AI or Carmelo. He was a very selfish player and ballhog. He was just a stat-padding guy without success.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#57 » by Jordan23Forever » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:32 pm

nolunch wrote:Before getting coached by Phil, MJ was just another T-mac, AI or Carmelo. He was a very selfish player and ballhog. He was just a stat-padding guy without success.


Great contribution.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#58 » by Gregoire » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:33 pm

Ahaha, Shaq fans are alive :lol:
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#59 » by B_Creamy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:21 am

Michael Jordan
1985: 4.0
1986: 4.0
1987: 6.0
1988: 7.0
1989: 7.5
1990: 9.0
1991: 9.0
1992: 8.5
1993: 8.0
1995: 4.0
1996: 7.0
1997: 5.5
1998: 5.0
2002: 1.0
2003: 1.0

Updated and increased several values.
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Re: Survey Project: Michael Jordan by season 

Post#60 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:31 am

In SRS:

1985 +5.0
1986 +5.5
1987 +6.0
1988 +7.5
1989 +7.5
1990 +7.5
1991 +7.5
1992 +7.0
1993 +6.5
1995 +3.0
1996 +6.0
1997 +5.5
1998 +4.0
2002 +1.0
2003 +0.0

EDIT: Updated 11/13/13
Now that's the difference between first and last place.

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