First of all, there are a lot of knee-jerk reactions around this game. People probably took a side, and have dug their heels in and remained dead set on holding that position. The more time goes by, the more dead set they become. Personally, I was pretty turned off by Kobe's game in the 2nd half. That's been my working bias over the years.
I had re-watched the game a few years ago and tried to track how idle Kobe was. My stance at the time was that I wasn't sure if he "quit," but that something was weird about the game. I have re-watched it again as it seems it's a topic that will not go away, and here's what I found.
Kobe played 38 "plays" in the 2nd half. There are 14 clear possessions where he is incredibly "idle," "stationary" or "passive" (pick one) -- in other words, he stands out beyond the 3-point line, or walks slowly toward halfcourt, and makes no attempt to cut, post, move, attack, or go into PnR. He doesn't post teammates on mismatches in these situations or clear out for isolation (they did this once with Odom) but simply stands or catches the ball and moves it along.
14 of 38. 37% of the plays. This does not include the plays where Kobe couldn't have done anything because it was a designed clearout or his teammate shot quickly. If we include those, we could say that Kobe Bryant was passive on 39% of the plays in the second half.
My guess is the people who believe that Kobe "quit" perceived his uncharacteristically passive play as quitting. (Is there an instance of Kobe being idle on even 20% of possessions in any half in his career?) At the same time, those who believe that he didn't quit perceive his play as consistent with "facilitating" and "buying into the team strategy" for the series. Which begs an obvious question -- was the team strategy for the series feeding Smush Parker in the post (this happened once) and staying 30+ feet away from the hoop? What did his first half look like?
The plays:
Spoiler:
P1 11:27 Kobe never goes inside 3 line. (0 pts) P2 10:58 Normal, cut, extra pass. P3 10:23 Normal movement. P4 10:02 Never goes inside 3 line. (2 pts) P5 9:16 Feeds post, retreats to 35 feet away. (0 pts) P6 8:52 Catches on logo, stands on logo whole pos (2 pts) P7 7:56 Bryant runs from under the basket to the 3-point line and launches a quick contested 3 and misses. P8 7:24 runs to foul line extended, feeds post and retreats to halfcourt. (0) [P9 7:04] On offensive rebound stands 5 feet behind line (0) P10 6:47 Runs to pinch post. Walton misses open 3. P11 6:24 dribbles to logo. Feeds Smush in post. (!) Sets screen for Smush 3. (3 pts) P13 5:37 One dribble on halccourt logo. Takes a few steps and Parker turns it over. (0 pts) “When is Kobe going to start becoming aggressive?” - Doug Collins P14 5:00 Dribbles to 3-point line, met by soft double and passes. Makes a backdoor cut and is fouled by Bell. On inbounds runs to the corner and misses a fadeaway contested 3. P15 4:31 Kobe stands on US Air logo by design for Odom clearout. (2 Fts) P16 4:01 Kobe stands on US Air logo, passes back to Odom in post who feeds Brown. (2 pts) P17 3:18 Kobe drifts outside top of circle, missed Laker shot. (0 pt) P18 2:46 Kobe dribbles to US air logo, waits for screen, doubled and gives it up. Walks to US air logo. (0 pts) P19 2:21 Kobe runs to US air logo, doesn't come within 30 feet of hoop. (0 pts) P20 1:59 turnover runs to 3 pt line, quick Parker shot. (2 pts) P21 1:30 Kobe catchs on playoff logo, takes two dribbles and is doubled. George misses. (0 pt) P22 1:04 Kobe dribbles to far wing, pick and pop to Cook. (0 pts) P23 0:26 Kobe dribbles and gives to Cook, stands at top of key. “Kobe's not even looking for his shot right now.” -Doug Collins 4th P1 12:00 Kobe one dribble and shuffle to Walton, looks to seal in post. (2 pt) P2 11:10 runs to post and fights for boards. (0 pt) P3 10:42 pinch post, Cook misses (0 pt) P4 10:22 Kobe near halfcourt. Passes along and stands near halcourt. [P5] 10:06 Kobe runs over Bell (foul) P6 10:00 Kobe drives and takes wild shot in lane. (0 pt) P7 9:47 Kobe dribbles off screen and tries to split double (fouled) [P8] 9:30 Kobe doubled and moves ball along, Odom layup (2 pt) P9 8: 52 Kobe runs to ball near halfcourt. Doubled off PnR and moves to Walton jumper. (2 pt) P10 8:08 Kobe PnP to Cook misses 3. (OC) (0 pt) P11 7:37 Kobe empy PnP, then gets it back near halfcourt, entry to Odom. (2 pt) P12 7:02 Kobe brinsg it up to 3 line, doubled, gives it up. Stand basically still for rest of trip. (0 pt) P13 6:13 Kobe brings it up, PnR to Turiaf. Miss Vujacic J (OC) (0 pt) P14 5:41 Kobe catches near halcourt, shuffles out there while Walton posts. (2 pts) P15 5:03 Kobe feeds Turiaf and backpedals again before a foul.
Yes he quit, threw a hissy fit, tried to make some sort of statement.
There is a difference between trying to involve your supporting cast in the offense more and almost completely disinvolving yourself from the offense.
The team NEEDED Kobe to be the main ball-handler and take a significant role in terms of offensive creation. He stopped doing both of those things and basically just stood around and watched.
The idea that Kobe thought they would have a better chance at winning if he just passed off, set screens and didn't look for his own shot at all is absurd. He was by far the best scorer on the team.
I can't believe some people try to deny this.
I personally never made a big deal out of it. That team wasn't gonna contend that year even if they had gotten past PHX.
It definitely irks me when people try to deny this or even worse when they try to say that he wasn't the main reason the Lakers lost in the 2004 Finals.
I remember that game very well because of how he quit. Now whenever people bring up a new star and how he falls short to the standard of Kobe's will I think back to that game.
Actually, just a couple weeks ago I thought of the game and went through the play by play page. It's amazing how he just stops shooting in the second half. That is the opposite of Kobe -- when his team is down, he is shooting it. (Research proved this recently; I think it was at Sloan.)
Well we should bring up how he scored 23 points on 8/15 in the first half and his team was down by 15. He tried to will his team into it and it just wasn't working. The Lakers weren't winning that game, or coming very close to it regardless of how Kobe played.
Kobe did give up though. He does in most elimination games. That's why the Lakers almost always end an unsuccessful season by getting blown out. It's very strange. You would think someone of Kobe's ilk would just fire away in a situation like that. It's pretty inconsistent with the rest of his career, but it seems to be the case that when the season looks like it's over, he just packs it up. The only time I remember him doing the opposite was in Game 5 vs. Phoenix in 07 and Game 5 vs OKC in 12. Also, in Game 6 of this series. It was clear our shot was disappearing in that overtime and he just started hitting these crazy shots to try to delay the inevitable. I think he had 10 points in that OT and 50 for the game. That was our real elimination game that year.
Lakers fan since 99.
PCProductions wrote:NBA has probably the most parity of any pro sport.
BattleTested wrote:Well we should bring up how he scored 23 points on 8/15 in the first half and his team was down by 15. He tried to will his team into it and it just wasn't working. The Lakers weren't winning that game, or coming very close to it regardless of how Kobe played.
Kobe did give up though. He does in most elimination games. That's why the Lakers almost always end an unsuccessful season by getting blown out. It's very strange. You would think someone of Kobe's ilk would just fire away in a situation like that. It's pretty inconsistent with the rest of his career, but it seems to be the case that when the season looks like it's over, he just packs it up. The only time I remember him doing the opposite was in Game 5 vs. Phoenix in 07 and Game 5 vs OKC in 12. Also, in Game 6 of this series. It was clear our shot was disappearing in that overtime and he just started hitting these crazy shots to try to delay the inevitable. I think he had 10 points in that OT and 50 for the game. That was our real elimination game that year.
So you probably one of Kobe's biggest fans are calling him a quiter?
BattleTested wrote:Well we should bring up how he scored 23 points on 8/15 in the first half and his team was down by 15. He tried to will his team into it and it just wasn't working. The Lakers weren't winning that game, or coming very close to it regardless of how Kobe played.
Kobe did give up though. He does in most elimination games. That's why the Lakers almost always end an unsuccessful season by getting blown out. It's very strange. You would think someone of Kobe's ilk would just fire away in a situation like that. It's pretty inconsistent with the rest of his career, but it seems to be the case that when the season looks like it's over, he just packs it up. The only time I remember him doing the opposite was in Game 5 vs. Phoenix in 07 and Game 5 vs OKC in 12. Also, in Game 6 of this series. It was clear our shot was disappearing in that overtime and he just started hitting these crazy shots to try to delay the inevitable. I think he had 10 points in that OT and 50 for the game. That was our real elimination game that year.
So you probably one of Kobe's biggest fans are calling him a quiter?
wouldnt you call lebron a quitter for what he did against the celtics his last game as a cav?
not to make this about lebron, but both did similar things really.
I don't know if he really quit. But the game is one of the best examples for Kobe's mentality. There are a lot of games when he didn't trust his teammates at all, so he went into full KoMe-mode. Then there are some games when overcompensated by taking his own scoring out of the game, just to prove (or try) something, like that game. I think that he sometimes lacks the instinct for a good mixture that is necessary for teammates to come into the best rhythm. I would not say that there are only those two gears, but without trust Kobe doesn't find the others that often.
Yes he went completely passive but it's not the only time I've seen him play like he didn't want to be out there. Game 7 vs Boston from about the 10 minute mark in the 4th until 6 minute mark, the key time when they were down and managed to bring it back to even he was doing the same thing. He was a non-factor when his team expects him to be the centerpiece. Standing around waving weakly as if he didn't even want the ball.
“anyone involved in that meddling to justice”. NO COLLUSION
BattleTested wrote:Well we should bring up how he scored 23 points on 8/15 in the first half and his team was down by 15. He tried to will his team into it and it just wasn't working. The Lakers weren't winning that game, or coming very close to it regardless of how Kobe played.
Kobe did give up though. He does in most elimination games. That's why the Lakers almost always end an unsuccessful season by getting blown out. It's very strange. You would think someone of Kobe's ilk would just fire away in a situation like that. It's pretty inconsistent with the rest of his career, but it seems to be the case that when the season looks like it's over, he just packs it up. The only time I remember him doing the opposite was in Game 5 vs. Phoenix in 07 and Game 5 vs OKC in 12. Also, in Game 6 of this series. It was clear our shot was disappearing in that overtime and he just started hitting these crazy shots to try to delay the inevitable. I think he had 10 points in that OT and 50 for the game. That was our real elimination game that year.
I agree with this, Kobe did all he could (offensively) in the first half and the Lakers were still down 15. He mentioned on inside the NBA that him(Kobe) being passive is what worked for the Lakers just like game 4. It was clear in the 2nd half that Kobe knew the team wasn't winning the series, heck after game 6 everyone knew Phoenix was winning the series. Tough to say he quit, but hey it's tough being Kobe because he gets criticized for not shooting enough or shooting too much .
Not Bias wrote:Tough to say he quit, but hey it's tough being Kobe because he gets criticized for not shooting enough or shooting too much .
Well, according to ElGee, it's not just about shooting. It's the fact that the Lakers were basically playing 4 on 5 because Kobe made himself a complete nonfactor on offense. You don't need to shoot to get the involved, because you CAN act as a decoy via cutting, moving around on screens, or just getting better scoring opportunities for your teammates.
What ElGee basically described seems awfully similar to this.
This wasn't a question after the series all this nonsense started when Lebron quit during the Boston series in 2010 his adamant supports started this Kobe quit BS, you won't see this discussion anywhere else outside this forum.
Black Feet wrote:This wasn't a question after the series all this nonsense started when Lebron quit during the Boston series in 2010 his adamant supports started this Kobe quit BS, you won't see this discussion anywhere else outside this forum.
I have quite clear memories of people at the time of G7 accusing Kobe of quitting just like the accusations of quitting following that late regular season game with Sacramento in 02.
Abolish the draft. Abolish the rookie scale. Make teams try to win.
Black Feet wrote:This wasn't a question after the series all this nonsense started when Lebron quit during the Boston series in 2010 his adamant supports started this Kobe quit BS, you won't see this discussion anywhere else outside this forum.
In the game itself, the announcers are questioning him. There's other stuff on Yardbarker, Spurstalk, ESPN, all over the place talking about this. Much of it is from 2010 or 2011, true, but there was discussion at the time as well because he had such an odd game.
Black Feet wrote:This wasn't a question after the series all this nonsense started when Lebron quit during the Boston series in 2010 his adamant supports started this Kobe quit BS, you won't see this discussion anywhere else outside this forum.
In the game itself, the announcers are questioning him. There's other stuff on Yardbarker, Spurstalk, ESPN, all over the place talking about this. Much of it is from 2010 or 2011, true, but there was discussion at the time as well because he had such an odd game.
yup not necessarily saying its right but this is not a revisionist argument.
Abolish the draft. Abolish the rookie scale. Make teams try to win.
Black Feet wrote:This wasn't a question after the series all this nonsense started when Lebron quit during the Boston series in 2010 his adamant supports started this Kobe quit BS, you won't see this discussion anywhere else outside this forum.
Didn't Barkley immediately question him following the game?
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom. ~George Smith Patton
It's a debatable point, but yeah, not tevisionist in concept.
Kobe very early wasn't playing the way he has throughout his career, though: he was visibly disinclined towards creating or taking shots, wasn't going after guys...
I have a tough time believing he didn't shoot to make a point or to "quit," though. He has proven willing to shoot at even the cost of winning in other instances, so I'm more inclined to think injury or other motivator. It's possible thst he was just being pissy, but it doesn't look like what he usually does when he gets that way, which is shoot more.
tsherkin wrote:It's a debatable point, but yeah, not tevisionist in concept.
Kobe very early wasn't playing the way he has throughout his career, though: he was visibly disinclined towards creating or taking shots, wasn't going after guys...
I have a tough time believing he didn't shoot to make a point or to "quit," though. He has proven willing to shoot at even the cost of winning in other instances, so I'm more inclined to think injury or other motivator. It's possible thst he was just being pissy, but it doesn't look like what he usually does when he gets that way, which is shoot more.
Very weird, in any case.
Well, I think he also stopped shooting as much in Game 4 against Dallas two years ago, when it was clear that the Maverick barrage of 3s was basically unstoppable.
I do have a feeling his passive play was him sending a message to the Lakers FO, and maybe even Phil Jackson.
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom. ~George Smith Patton
I'm really not a fan of assuming I know what's going on in a player's head, so I usually view these things like I view all conspiracy theories. It's obvious Kobe didn't have a great game no matter his "mentality" or whatever, so just treat it as so. All the greats have bad games.
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