Shabazz is being under valued.

snaltonj · Post #1 » by **snaltonj** » Tue May 21, 2013 2:34 pm

Every year there is a player that the media tries to ride into the ground and once it starts everyone jumps on the hate bandwagon. Last year it was Barnes and Drummond and both of them had good seasons and dropped out of the top 5. This year everyone is saying Shabazz had a bad season. He averaged about 18ppg on a sub par team. I think his selfishness that everyone talks about is no different than Carmelo Anthony taking many shots and going one on one most of the time. His game is an NBA game one on one and not suited for college. He also has the killer instinct that can't be taught. I think Mclemore is a better player but without that killer instinct and drive to want to take over games and be the best I have to say that Shabazz should still be a top 3 pick. Shabazz vs Olidapo would result in Olidapo getting owned everytime. So when I hear those questions being posed, they are not even the same caliber of player.

No-Man · Post #2 » by **No-Man** » Tue May 21, 2013 2:50 pm

Bazz is going to be at least a Caron Butler.

That's a top5, even top3, in this year class, without a doubt.

He proves to be quick enough and long enough to play both wing positions at the next level, his shot is there, and his athleticism is coming back now that his regaining his shape after a rough year with the injury plus the eligibility issues.

My only concern with him is his father.

ImHeisenberg · Post #3 » by **ImHeisenberg** » Tue May 21, 2013 3:10 pm

I agree. When the "experts" are down on him, stating he can only score you 20PPG, little else.

That's hilarious. There's only a couple guys in the league that can score 20+PPG. He can rebound, and he has the tools to be at least adequate defensively.

A lot of scorers are billed as bad defender in college, but the reality is, the coach has told them not to foul and they end up looking terrible because of it.

No-Man · Post #4 » by **No-Man** » Tue May 21, 2013 3:48 pm

Where do you think he would finish as a player in this scale

Brandon Rush - Caron Butler - Paul Pierce

I think better than Caron and worse than Pierce.

That's a great value in this draft.

tidho · Post #5 » by **tidho** » Tue May 21, 2013 4:03 pm

I'm not sure he's really being beaten down that much. He's still a fringe top 10. Falling from 5 to 10 isn't a big deal.

Post #6 » by **165bows** » Tue May 21, 2013 4:13 pm

Fischella wrote:Where do you think he would finish as a player in this scale

Brandon Rush - Caron Butler - Paul Pierce

I think better than Caron and worse than Pierce.

That's a great value in this draft.

Caron was a year older his year in college, but he shot better 2PT and 3PT, was a better rebounder, and had a much better rate of assists and steals. I think he's slightly less than Caron, but Butler had a pretty good career that was derailed by injuries. Butler's career would be safely in the top 10 this year if GMs knew that's what they were getting, IMO.

Pharmcat · Post #7 » by **Pharmcat** » Tue May 21, 2013 4:35 pm

hes been undervalued for some reason, but its a big mistake

he should be top 5 pick in this weak draft

No-Man · Post #8 » by **No-Man** » Tue May 21, 2013 4:58 pm

Butler as a 20-21 year old freshmen at UConn
32.8minpg 15.3ppg 43.5FG% 30.43pt% 75.4FT% 3.1apg 7.6rpg 0.3bpg 2.2stpg
Bazz as a 20-21 year old freshmen at UCLA
30.8minpg 17.9ppg 44.3FG% 37.73pt% 71.1FT% 0.8apg 5.2rpg 0.1bpg 0.7stpg

Well, Butler were more complete, better defender and rebounder (Bazz is a good rebounder too, but UCLA had a really good rebounding team this year, so not sure that matter at all) but worse at scoring, I also think the kind of game they play at UConn offensively let him show his talent more than what Bazz could do at UCLA.

I can see him being at Caron's level if he improves on D.

wildvikeswolves · Post #9 » by **wildvikeswolves** » Tue May 21, 2013 5:26 pm

I think he will be a Timberwolf if he's available at pick 9

Wizenheimer · Post #10 » by **Wizenheimer** » Tue May 21, 2013 5:57 pm

I don't know that he is being undervalued

I went to the U of Oregon and am a big pac-12 fan. I saw Shabazz play several times this season. For sure, compared to other college wings, he's physically impressive. Muscular and mobile

at the same time, it sure looks like he has rather limited skills at this point. UCLA played Oregon twice. The Ducks had their own freshman shooting guard, Damyean Dotson. And while Shabazz was quite a bit bigger, Dotson looked a little more skilled. That might be a bit of homer in me, but ertainly Shabazz didn't look significantly better overall.

it also probably didn't help that Shabazz threw up brick after brick in the combine last week. NBA teams tend to like players that can make shots and not like players who don't

Post #11 » by **165bows** » Tue May 21, 2013 6:45 pm

Fischella wrote:Butler as a 20-21 year old freshmen at UConn
32.8minpg 15.3ppg 43.5FG% 30.43pt% 75.4FT% 3.1apg 7.6rpg 0.3bpg 2.2stpg
Bazz as a 20-21 year old freshmen at UCLA
30.8minpg 17.9ppg 44.3FG% 37.73pt% 71.1FT% 0.8apg 5.2rpg 0.1bpg 0.7stpg

I think Butler was 19-20 as a freshman. I was looking at his soph. year I believe, it is the earliest entry on his DX profile. Butler's shooting numbers jumped quite a bit into his sophomore year, essentially 50% from 2 and 40% from 3.

Golabki · Post #12 » by **Golabki** » Tue May 21, 2013 7:04 pm

Fischella wrote:Where do you think he would finish as a player in this scale

Brandon Rush - Caron Butler - Paul Pierce

I think better than Caron and worse than Pierce.

That's a great value in this draft.

Rush

Golabki · Post #13 » by **Golabki** » Tue May 21, 2013 7:16 pm

165bows wrote:
Fischella wrote:Butler as a 20-21 year old freshmen at UConn
32.8minpg 15.3ppg 43.5FG% 30.43pt% 75.4FT% 3.1apg 7.6rpg 0.3bpg 2.2stpg
Bazz as a 20-21 year old freshmen at UCLA
30.8minpg 17.9ppg 44.3FG% 37.73pt% 71.1FT% 0.8apg 5.2rpg 0.1bpg 0.7stpg

I think Butler was 19-20 as a freshman. I was looking at his soph. year I believe, it is the earliest entry on his DX profile. Butler's shooting numbers jumped quite a bit into his sophomore year, essentially 50% from 2 and 40% from 3.

1. I think those Butler numbers are from when he was almost 2 years older than Bazz now.

2. Butler had a HUGE edge APG, RPG and SPG... if Bazz had put of those numbers we'd be talking about him for #1 overall.

3. I think the defense of Bazz has to center around the UCLA coaching staff. The whole team underachieved, and you hate to blame a 20-year-old if he was just in a bad situation. Basically, the same argument you'd make for Tony Mitchell.

ManualRam · Post #14 » by **ManualRam** » Tue May 21, 2013 7:58 pm

Golabki wrote:3. I think the defense of Bazz has to center around the UCLA coaching staff. The whole team underachieved, and you hate to blame a 20-year-old if he was just in a bad situation. Basically, the same argument you'd make for Tony Mitchell.

i don't think they underachieved at all. they won their conference and finished up as top 25 team. that's more than i expected of them given the make up of their roster. they had no depth, were very young and were also a team full of really bad defenders.

No-Man · Post #15 » by **No-Man** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:14 pm

Butler was the same age as Bazz when he put those numbers, 20-21 (he's from 1980 and was a freshmen at 2000-01...do the math) actually he's from March and Bazz from November, so he was older than Bazz as a freshmen.

Butler improved as a Sophmore yes, but you don't think Bazz could be at that level next if he stayed? c'mon man

Eoghan · Post #16 » by **Eoghan** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm

His defense just looks terrible.

Golabki · Post #17 » by **Golabki** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:46 pm

ManualRam wrote:
Golabki wrote:3. I think the defense of Bazz has to center around the UCLA coaching staff. The whole team underachieved, and you hate to blame a 20-year-old if he was just in a bad situation. Basically, the same argument you'd make for Tony Mitchell.

i don't think they underachieved at all. they won their conference and finished up as top 25 team. that's more than i expected of them given the make up of their roster. they had no depth, were very young and were also a team full of really bad defenders.

Fair point... I guess I was remembering the loss to Minny and generalizing. Although they probably shouldn't have been top 25.

Marvin Martian · Post #18 » by **Marvin Martian** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:56 pm

snaltonj wrote:Every year there is a player that the media tries to ride into the ground and once it starts everyone jumps on the hate bandwagon. Last year it was Barnes and Drummond and both of them had good seasons and dropped out of the top 5. This year everyone is saying Shabazz had a bad season. He averaged about 18ppg on a sub par team. I think his selfishness that everyone talks about is no different than Carmelo Anthony taking many shots and going one on one most of the time. His game is an NBA game one on one and not suited for college. He also has the killer instinct that can't be taught. I think Mclemore is a better player but without that killer instinct and drive to want to take over games and be the best I have to say that Shabazz should still be a top 3 pick. Shabazz vs Olidapo would result in Olidapo getting owned everytime. So when I hear those questions being posed, they are not even the same caliber of player.

Shabazz scored 18 ppg off of transition dunks, jumpshots, cuts, and straight line drives. That is the exact same way Mclemore and Oladipo scored their points and they did it at a higher efficiency. Not to mention that both are better athletes and have higher potential on the defensive end.

Shabazz does not deserve to go ahead of Oladipo or Mclemore under any circumstances.

Post #19 » by **165bows** » Tue May 21, 2013 9:07 pm

2. Butler had a HUGE edge APG, RPG and SPG... if Bazz had put of those numbers we'd be talking about him for #1 overall.

True, that Sophomore year of Butler's was a great year. Don't see too many of those, really.

I'm sure Shabazz is capable of improvement, but I wouldn't put him high on the list of big gainers, really. He was the age of a slightly older sophomore as a freshman, played a lot of minutes and took a lot of shots. Many basic things that can account for a big jump in production between the first and second year in college aren't there. Ie, a leap in physical maturity, minutes played, or taking a more prominent role on the team while on the court.

He certainly could improve, but I wouldn't have been at all surprised to see a Sullinger/C. Zeller scenario. That is, in the second year after a very productive freshmen season, that they maintained that production the next year. I think that is more likely for Shabazz, of course we will never find out.

That said, UCLA prospects have relatively overperformed in the NBA compared to their college careers, and he has a competitive temperament. I just think that Butler is the best comp of the three, which isn't a huge criticism, IMO. Most guys don't turn into productive players.

No-Man · Post #20 » by **No-Man** » Tue May 21, 2013 9:13 pm

Butler is a top5 in this Draft, that's why Bazz is undervalued, most of the experts put him in late lottery.
Actually I don't understand at all why Porter is ranked higher than him, but whatever...

Butler was also a "a slightly older sophomore as a freshman, played a lot of minutes and took a lot of shots" in UConn, and then he improved a lot, shot, defense, physique, Bazz has a lot of room for improvement under the right coach/direction.

By the way, Butler played more minutes as a freshmen than Bazz, and he shot worse than him, Bazz was also in bad shape the whole year, cause the injury+eligibility issues, so there's a leap he can make right there, also with Larry Drew leaving UCLA, he would have a more prominent role on the team, no question.