Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V

[stevemcqueen1]

Would you guys do #3 + #37 + #54 for Sac's #7 and DeMarcus Cousins? I would even throw in Vesley or Booker to make it work.

Yes. Would Sacramento do it?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

For comparison, Beal is exactly the same height without shoes, has only 0.5 inches less in standing reach, same no-step vert, a smidge slower in lane agility, and near identical quarter-court sprints. Dipo did bench 185 7 more times but that's probably due to age.

Physically speaking, there's very little difference between Dipo and Beal. Statistically, Beal was a better rebounder both in RB% (by a lot) and gross totals. Furthermore Beal was a freshman and Dipo a Junior. I'm very suspicious of the claims that Oladipo can consistently play SF even in spot minutes.

Olidipo led the Big Ten in eFG%.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Would you guys do #3 + #37 + #54 for Sac's #7 and DeMarcus Cousins? I would even throw in Vesley or Booker to make it work.

Yes. Would Sacramento do it?

Throw in Seraphin and make it happen !

[Ruzious]

I gotta say your wrong here. Regardless of what you & I think of Zeller (and we are far apart on him), productive bigs are easier to come by these days than quality 3s. Quality 3s are scarce. LeBron & Melo play the 4 almost exclusively now. After Durant, who else is there? Paul George? A 35 yr old Paul Pierce? If Otto Porter is the next Tayshaun Prince, that would make him a top 5 SF in this era.

Meh. The fact that top 3's like Melo and Lebron are playing 4 is BECAUSE of the lack of quality bigs in the NBA. Who's a dominant big in the NBA now? There's not even 1 in the entire NBA - now that Howard has deteriorated. That's never been the case since I started watching the NBA... and I'm old. Players like Javale McGee and DeAndre Jordan still get enormous contracts - not to mention Okafor. The Wiz picked up their starting 3 for the NBA minimum.

Plus, you need 2 bigs for every 3.

Again I disagree, It's because LeBron & Melo create mismatches as 4s because typical bigs can't defend them. It's about teams wanting to spread the floor and utilizing skill to beat opponents.

There may be no real dominant bigs since Shaq retire & Howard got hurt but lets not act like Zeller is going to be some dominant big. I believe Porter will have a bigger impact at SF than Zeller at PF or C.

Lebron would create mis-matches at literally any position. Using him as your evidence is like using Michael Jordan as evidence that shooting guard is the most important position in basketball. Look at the guys Miami has at the 3 - Mike Miller and some old guy from Duke. Remember Miller? Apparently, you can win titles playing him at the 3 - even when he can barely walk. Hey, using him as an example makes as much sense as using Lebron as your example. Miami can find these guys to play SF and fit under their budget, because they're available at reasonable prices - and bigs that can play - aren't. Again, look at the Wiz - they got their starting 3 for the veteran minimum.

Before this season, 4 of the top 5 bigs were Howard, Bynum, Love, and Pau Gasol. All of them either declined badly or didn't play this season. The 5th was one of the oldest players in the NBA - Tim Duncan. There is a huge lack of bigs in the NBA - which is what I thought we were talking about.

Of course teams want to spread the floor more with guys who can shoot 3's. That doesn't mean you use SF's not named Lebron to play the 4. You get your 4's to expand their shooting range - like Ryan Anderson did. Do you really think NY is ever going to win against top playoff teams with Melo as their PF - with his rebounding and interior defense? <gotta get back to work - nice topic>

[Dark Faze]

The combine scores for Zeller rose his offensive stock in my mind but lowered his defensive stock quite a bit. His rebounding rate being as low as its been in college despite that sort of athleticism shows that its just not an instinctive thing for him. He doesn't make the most of his athleticism like say Blake Griffin. It's like the way Barnes tested out--most of those jaw dropping numbers didn't translate to the NBA other than a poster or two throughout the NBA season.

[stevemcqueen1]

Porter had 30 points against Syracuse in their final Big East game against the Orange at the Carrier Dome. Porter was a Player of the Year Finalist. You can't sit there and say their highs weren't that impressive. Porter was impressive enough to get national attention at the end of the year. You mentioned Bennett and his game against Air Force. Air Force. He dominated his conference, he should have. He's playing teams like Air Force.

I love that article on Otto though and his family. Sounds like Beal, sounds like a guy that can start for 10 years and consistently be a great robin. Problem is that we have 3 robin's, if he's a robin, and no Batman.

I agree with what you said about the athleticism and dominance Bennett displayed. He looked like LJ when he was at his best. Just overpowering and long and athletic with a tight handle like a guard. His power is really impressive, great explosiveness and functional strength.

I do think he is immature but I think he is a super nice kid and not a problem child at all. He's just young. Won't be forever.

But my biggest qualm with Bennett is that he's really raw on offense working off the ball and with his back to the basket, and that his defensive effort was poor and his understanding of playing big man D was very nascent to put it kindly. Those things are going to keep him in constant conflict with Wittman. Witt has shown a detrimental effect on young big men both in DC and Minnesota (he's the guy who made Kevin Love stop shooting threes). He doesn't have the ability to teach and develop young bigs. And he doesn't have the vision to figure out how to use them while they remain incomplete players.

That creates a serious chemistry conflict between Bennett and our coach. Their weaknesses make them incompatible IMO.

Anyway, I highlighted this part of your post though because John Wall is our Batman. John is an alpha by temperament, he is a very dominant personality that seems very comfortable in his leadership role. He likes to have the ball in his hands in key moments and he has the clutch gene on both offense and defense. We don't need someone to come in here big timing the team, demanding the ball, acting the like the star. I think that would clash with John actually. We need someone who can really go to work off the ball and understand his main role is as an outlet for John, not the trigger man for the majority of the offense. Someone who is patient and selfless and comfortable being the glue guy. That's definitely Porter. It's the same dynamic that made Beal such an awesome fit for us.

[Ruzious]

The combine scores for Zeller rose his offensive stock in my mind but lowered his defensive stock quite a bit. His rebounding rate being as low as its been in college despite that sort of athleticism shows that its just not an instinctive thing for him. He doesn't make the most of his athleticism like say Blake Griffin. It's like the way Barnes tested out--most of those jaw dropping numbers didn't translate to the NBA other than a poster or two throughout the NBA season.

Zeller's rebounding rate wasn't bad in college. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad.

[DCZards]

Oladipo is probably as good or better than Beal at SG.

An insane, brass balls move would be to draft Oladipo and trade Beal along with Seraphin and Vesely for Cousins and a pick.

I don't see any reason to believe that VO is going to be as good or better than Beal...at least at this point. Beal has already proven his NBA metal, imo, while Oladipo hasn't done squat at the next level. EG could end up looking like a fool if he traded one of last year's top rookies (and one of the best young shooters in the game) with the HOPE that Dipo is as good or better.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, ccj, but this sounds eerily similar to some of your "the Zards should dump Wall" talk. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

[Nivek]

Beal was better as a freshman than Oladipo was. Comparable on the boards and in overall efficiency. Beal got more assists and committed fewer turnovers. Oladipo got more steals; Beal more blocks. Oladipo fouled twice was often. And, Beal was a full-time starter as a freshman (34.2 mpg) while Oladipo was a role player (18.0 mpg).

pancakes: Are you getting rebounding percentages from DX? If so, I'd suggest some caution. I'm not sure how they're calculating those percentages, but they look kinda hinkty to me. Oladipo and Beal had very similar per minute rebounding and their team's paces were similar. Indiana played at about 67 possessions per 40 minutes; Florida at 65. Not a big enough pace difference to explain the gap in rebounding percentage.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Porter looks like he has good upper body strength. He's got good muscle tone. He's just got no bulk and has a skinny base.

But he gets it done. That kind of defines him for me:
- Didn't play AAU, still ended up a top college player and NBA prospect.
- Not that strong nor a leaper, but he gets a TON of rebounds outside his area.
- Not fast and looks awkward when he runs, but he creates space for himself to shoot and finishes well in transition.
- Got a funny looking jumper but it goes in.

People are always going to be wondering how he's as good as he is throughout his career because he's so unconventional. But he's going to play winning basketball and get great results in spite of being an abnormal player. He's just figured out what works for himself and mastered his own approach to the game. He's an odd bird.

Excellent description of Porter's game. Unconventional and awkward as hell but knows how to play winning basketball on both ends of the court. Otto is a highly-instinctive player as well as a poised facilitator who will help make his teammates better.

There are a lot of options out there for the Zards with third pick (including trades) but right now drafting Porter, assuming the Cavs don't take him, is option #1 , imo.

I'm gravitating to this as well. I'd probably go Noel #1 if he's there, Porter #2, Zeller #3. I've got Noel at one because I think he can be a game changing defensive big like Joakim Noah. Porter at #2 as the best two way player for us at three. Zeller #3 as a high upside offensive big man who won't be total crap on D. In fact, I think Zeller ends up a solid defensive big man because of his intelligence and athleticism.

I agree that what makes Porter special are his elite instincts. He anticipates the game so well. He makes a lot of big plays in spite of his ordinary athleticism. He does everything right. Big communicator on D that can lock it down and force turnovers. I think he's probably the third best defensive player among the high lotto guys behind Noel and Dipo. And he's a better offensive player than both of them, he has very advanced skills from mid range and for finishing in transition. He torched the Syracuse zone when that thing really bothered a lot of people this year. He just had the keys to unlocking it with his tremendously diverse mid range game. I'd say him and Bazz have the best mid range games among the likely lottery picks, followed by Burke and McCollum. Porter can post up too and will generate some offense out of the high post. And Porter is a far better passer than Bazz so he's a more complete offensive player.

I think Porter is the most skilled and holistic offensive perimeter player in the class. He's the most well rounded because he does all of these things at a high level:

- Highly effective creating and scoring off the dribble.
- Highly effective finisher in transition with a good command of a variety of moves and great below the rim game.
- Reliable spot up shooter.
- Excellent off the ball ability, very important for playing with John Wall (and something Bennett lacks).
- Excellent passer, can facilitate the offense from the perimeter and in the open court, keeps the ball moving.
- Excellent generating contact in the lane and getting to the FT line.
- Excellent at sniffing out offensive boards for extra possessions and getting hustle points.

Guys like Zeller, Bazz , McLemore, Bennett, and Dipo are also very offensively skilled and they too are masters of some of those things. But they aren't as good at all of those things as Porter is.

So I'm thinking Porter is the best two way option for us at three.

Like Zeller, he's squeaky clean for me. No significant weaknesses as a player, just body or athleticism limitations. Those guys bring a lot of great things to the table and they take nothing away from it. They could fit in great with every team in the league. We've got some long term structures (and barriers) we have to build around now--Wall at PG, Beal at SG, Nene at a big spot. Having a guy who can come in and fit into our construction seamlessly is important.

I love Porter's D, and I love the thought of Wall coming up court having the option of taking it himself, kicking to Nene or Oak down low, Porter with the mid range, or out to Beal for the 3. And defensively, that could be a really really good starting 5.

And I'm surprised I haven't seen it yet, maybe I missed it, so here it goes...

WALL, BEAL, PORTER !! THE NEW BIG 3 !!!




Also, I can't imaging Cavs don't take Noel. Seems to me with their fans still reeling from LeBron leaving they want to make a big splash with their pick. I love Porter's game, but he's not exactly exciting.

[dobrojim]

agree that it's WAY too early to say Dipo will be better than Beal.

But I think for the short term, if CLE did take OP, I would go ahead
and draft Dipo as BPA. He can play about 20 minutes at SG and maybe
a few additional minutes at 3 in a small ball lineup (these are the rage
in the modern NBA with increased emphasis/ability to shoot/make 3s).

[Nivek]

Wade doesn't show up as all that similar to Oladipo in my statistical doppleganger machine. Most similar in YODA to Oladipo's junior year:

- Vince Carter (SO & JR)
- Jason Richardson (SO)
- Grant Hill (SO & JR)

Beal has different similars. Most similar to him: McLemore, Porter, Arenas (FR), Will Barton (SO), Tayshaun Prince (JR), Ron Artest (SO)... and mostly a bunch of other tough SFs. Jordan's freshman year shows up as reasonably similar.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Maybe we can deal our 2nd rounders to OKC for #32, enough to move up for Muscala.

I would really be happy with a Porter and Muscala draft.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Jazz at 21 could be a good trade partner. Maybe something like our 2nd rounders with Singleton. At 21 target Withey, or maybe Dieng?

[nuposse04]

For comparison, Beal is exactly the same height without shoes, has only 0.5 inches less in standing reach, same no-step vert, a smidge slower in lane agility, and near identical quarter-court sprints. Dipo did bench 185 7 more times but that's probably due to age.

Physically speaking, there's very little difference between Dipo and Beal. Statistically, Beal was a better rebounder both in RB% (by a lot) and gross totals. Furthermore Beal was a freshman and Dipo a Junior. I'm very suspicious of the claims that Oladipo can consistently play SF even in spot minutes.

Olidipo led the Big Ten in eFG%.

And that means what in the NBA? He won't be facing big ten talent in the NBA. He was also a junior this past year, you expect him to show some level of improvement especially considering he was on a fairly stacked and well built team. I don't believe the individual parts of IU are as great as the sum result. They're good players no doubt, but I have a hard time believing Oladipo can approach 2nd option pedigree (which is what I attribute to Beal). I see him being a smaller Webster. Able to knock down shot so long as he's relatively open. That or finishing in transition, which won't really matter in the playoffs as half court offense is the most important component in the playoffs IMO.

[dobrojim]

Before this season, 4 of the top 5 bigs were Howard, Bynum, Love, and Pau Gasol. All of them either declined badly or didn't play this season. The 5th was one of the oldest players in the NBA - Tim Duncan. There is a huge lack of bigs in the NBA - which is what I thought we were talking about.

this leads me to wonder or ask who are the best 5 bigs or more restricted, best 5 Cs
in the league now at the end of the season?

Marc Gasol - he might be the best right now as a 2 way big
Chandler?
Duncan - is he a 4 or 5? Or a 5 playing the 4 because he has 4 skills?
Hibbert?
B Lopez
Noah

It seems like having a great 2 way C is not a requirement any more.
Maybe because having to match up against another elite 5 just doesn't happen that often.

[truwizfan4evr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3ZFRmXo08 Noel scouting video.

[dobrojim]

Wade doesn't show up as all that similar to Oladipo in my statistical doppleganger machine. Most similar in YODA to Oladipo's junior year:

- Vince Carter (SO & JR)
- Jason Richardson (SO)
- Grant Hill (SO & JR)

Beal has different similars. Most similar to him: McLemore, Porter, Arenas (FR), Will Barton (SO), Tayshaun Prince (JR), Ron Artest (SO)... and mostly a bunch of other tough SFs. Jordan's freshman year shows up as reasonably similar.

even though I was never a huge Vinsanity fan (personal reasons), that's pretty good company, esp GHill.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

lol why do people like cousins

he's a proven net negative, locker room cancer, etc

Because he is young, he rebounds a ton, and has real offensive skills (if not great shot selection). His locker room cancer label is overblown. He doesn't have a Derrick Coleman level of jerkiness where he doesn't even care about playing hard. And he doesn't have an Andre Blatche level of laziness where he gets fat, out of shape, and refuses to bang on the low block. Basically, he's a hothead. That's not great, but it's something you can work with and it's something that he'll probably get under control as he gets older.

If he can improve his shot selection, he would be a top 5 big man. Hopefully, that could happen on a team like Washington with John Wall and a bunch of selfless veterans to set the tone. It also helps that we have Nene who wouldn't be intimidated by Cousins in the locker room.

All of this and because he and Wall played in a Final Four and are friends. This will be his fourth NBA season. The hope for acquiring Cousins would be he improves his efficiency because of Wall and the three point shooters. A healthy Nene would also be open often with Cousins inside.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Looking at mocks I see a realistic draft scenario of Porter, Green, Murphy.

However I know this is impossible since Grunfeld announced they have no intention of adding 3 rookies.