Around The NBA 4.0

[EArl]

It pisses me off that the Pacer could be up 2-0 in this serious. They need to take care of home.

[DEEP3CL]

i havent had the time to watch either game unfortunately.

but i have had the time to notice that every time deep makes a prediction regarding the spurs, they instantly prove him wrong

The thing is, is that you two seem to think I've been way off. Yeah they've won the games but it's been a lot of luck involved in those wins. And in the playoffs like Pat Riley once said you need some luck too in certain games.

But when the Spurs lost games neither one of you quoted those predictions, just the Spur wins......think I didn't figure that out ?

[Dr Aki]

i havent had the time to watch either game unfortunately.

but i have had the time to notice that every time deep makes a prediction regarding the spurs, they instantly prove him wrong

The thing is, is that you two seem to think I've been way off. Yeah they've won the games but it's been a lot of luck involved in those wins. And in the playoffs like Pat Riley once said you need some luck too in certain games.

But when the Spurs lost games neither one of you quoted those predictions, just the Spur wins......think I didn't figure that out ?

when the spurs lost games, it because they had already proven you wrong.

like when you predicted the warriors were going back to san antonio 3-1 up. (spurs won the first game in oakland, to instantly prove you wrong)

[DEEP3CL]

when the spurs lost games, it because they had already proven you wrong.

like when you predicted the warriors were going back to san antonio 3-1 up. (spurs won the first game in oakland, to instantly prove you wrong)

What's really funny is that you haven't even watched the games, so you have no clue on why Memphis lost these 2 games.

As far as the GSW series I was having some fun with it but I'm not gonna lie, I was hoping the Warriors could strike lightning. For the most part they controlled the first 3 games, they lost Game 3 as soon as Curry tweaked his cotton made ankle again.

[DEEP3CL]

Miami is becoming way too predictable, growing more dependant on Lebron down the stretch and once the Pacers cut off his lanes he reverted to passive Lebron from the Cav days.

People made too much of how they lost Game 1, those things don't affect young teams.

And the more I watch PG24, the more I see Granger being expendable. Pacers can unload him and get a decent back up C and SF for him.

[Dr Aki]

Sure, no arguments there. But Nash basically shot around the same total he did last year and wasn't too far off previous years before that. This is an issue in the aspect of Nash the player. He passes up shots, I don't it's Kobe stealing shots. And you also have the added factor that Nash was hurt. Remember, Kobe actually shot at a rate lowest since his MVP year, Kobe wasn't a gunner this year at all. Especially in the beginning of the season when the Lakers were trying different things (Mike Brown's offense, Steve Nash PnR, posting up Dwight etc.), all of that failed spectacularly.

kobe changed back rather quickly though didn't he?

Was Kobe semi-efficient in '08?

at .576 TS%? yes kobe was semi-efficient.

Well Pau was consistent, so don't lump him in there. I really don't see that, LeBron failed to get over the hump without high scoring efficient players. Now he has two and 2 finals appearances and a championship. I don't want to get too much into Kobe vs LeBron though.

cos we all know how that argument would go.

Well bigs are easier to build around, but championship teams don't necessarily need to be dependent on them. As to your question, I don't know about making a false dilhema out of it. Lots of teams have qualties to them that if absent would seriously hinder their overall play. Take Bosh away from Miami or their shooters, how well does Miami do?

only 1 team did it without a HoF big man. and that's because that 1 team had a guy named Mike.

Kobe's a guy that can lead you to a title. There aren't too many players that can boast that claim. I'd pick Kobe 10 times out of 10.

i'd rather pick the 3 big guys knowing i've got three of them to rely on playing in more important interior positions more critical to defense and high % shot creation over 1 perimeter guy. agree to disagree

Elaborate, like who? Nash? Howard? Pau? How aren't they being utilized correctly?

kobe needs to be a prototypical point guard and commit to feeding the bigs. and involve nash as a second in command in setting up said bigs. it really isn't too hard to see kobe (being the semi-efficient volume shooter he is) needs to get easier baskets for his teammates, who quite frankly have pretty much turned into max salary role players

Interesting, so because LeBron is more efficient than the rest of the players on his team, so you would want to keep riding that gravy train. In a vacuum, you might be right, but like I've been echoing this whole time, things aren't black and white. You wouldn't maximize your other players skills, thus their effectiveness and impact would wane. And if we're really just zeroing in on TS%, then does LeBron start stealing shots from his floor spacers who are better shooters? What are they gonna do on the court now?

i concur, it is a symbiotic relationship that lebron has with his team. why can't kobe get his team playing as well as the heat?

[Dr Aki]

when the spurs lost games, it because they had already proven you wrong.

like when you predicted the warriors were going back to san antonio 3-1 up. (spurs won the first game in oakland, to instantly prove you wrong)

What's really funny is that you haven't even watched the games, so you have no clue on why Memphis lost these 2 games.

As far as the GSW series I was having some fun with it but I'm not gonna lie, I was hoping the Warriors could strike lightning. For the most part they controlled the first 3 games, they lost Game 3 as soon as Curry tweaked his cotton made ankle again.

ill watch the one tomorrow. seeing itll be sunday here in oz

[MistyMountain20]

kobe changed back rather quickly though didn't he?

You mean after the injuries to Steve Nash and Pau Gasol? For a quarter of the season Kobe was averaging less than 20 shots despite averaging over 37 minutes a game. I hope you remember that team only started performing better once Kobe started taking control of the offense. His second half numbers to end the season were extremely good.

at .576 TS%? yes kobe was semi-efficient.

So you would agree LeBron was semi-efficient that year as well?

I'm trying to figure out what metric your using to arrive at = semi-efficient? It clearly has nothing to do with league average, does it have to do with peer play? Is it just about hitting an arbitrary none formulaic number you've assigned? What is it?

BTW, another huge issue with what you're saying; we're not even talking about Playoff performance.

cos we all know how that argument would go.

?
Because this is a discussion on Kobe being "semi-efficient", not Kobe vs LeBron. Red herrings aren't cool.

only 1 team did it without a HoF big man. and that's because that 1 team had a guy named Mike.

Right, but my point is that you don't necessarily need a team with HoF big game to win; that isn't the intrinsic formula to a championship. It yields a good success rate, but most of those teams had a dominant HoF perimeter player as well. Look no further than the current NBA landscape to resolve that point.

i'd rather pick the 3 big guys knowing i've got three of them to rely on playing in more important interior positions more critical to defense and high % shot creation over 1 perimeter guy. agree to disagree

Well specific to the Lakers, it'd basically be two bigs. Pau has never won a game in the Playoffs on his own and the one year Lamar played consistent basketball he played like ass in the Playoffs.

kobe needs to be a prototypical point guard and commit to feeding the bigs. and involve nash as a second in command in setting up said bigs. it really isn't too hard to see kobe (being the semi-efficient volume shooter he is) needs to get easier baskets for his teammates, who quite frankly have pretty much turned into max salary role players

Did you miss the part where after the All-Star break Kobe was averaging 7 assists. Did you miss the stat which showed Howard received the second highest amount of post touches, yet he did absolutely nothing with it. Pau has been misused all season and it wasn't until Kobe and Pau made it a concerted effort to get him the ball in the post was he effective (blame injuries and coaching). Again, there is nothing Kobe could do for Nash. The team struggled with Nash running the show because our floor spacers are jokes, which limits Nash's effectiveness. Did you want Kobe to go back in time, tell Phoenix Steve Nash to shoot the ball more and hope he would continue doing so in the future? He passes up shots, if you've watched Steve Nash in the past you should know this. It has nothing to do with Kobe stealing shots from Steve.

i concur, it is a symbiotic relationship that lebron has with his team. why can't kobe get his team playing as well as the heat?

Not sure how this is a response to the quoted text, but lol at comparing peak LeBron with current Kobe. Never mind all the goodies LeBron has playing next to him.

[Dr Aki]

You mean after the injuries to Steve Nash and Pau Gasol? For a quarter of the season Kobe was averaging less than 20 shots despite averaging over 37 minutes a game. I hope you remember that team only started performing better once Kobe started taking control of the offense. His second half numbers to end the season were extremely good.

the team started doing better because the lakers as a whole started playing passable defense coinciding with howard's back improving to level dwight could begin to look like the 3 DPOY he was.

the lakers never had issues scoring

So you would agree LeBron was semi-efficient that year as well?

yes, that was a down year for lebron

I'm trying to figure out what metric your using to arrive at = semi-efficient? It clearly has nothing to do with league average, does it have to do with peer play? Is it just about hitting an arbitrary none formulaic number you've assigned? What is it?

TS% scales from 0-150%, 150% if you shoot only 3s and hit 100% of them.

mid .600s = efficient, mid .500s = semi efficient. median = passable offense. we've been through this

BTW, another huge issue with what you're saying; we're not even talking about Playoff performance.

and this has what to do with this debate?

Because this is a discussion on Kobe being "semi-efficient", not Kobe vs LeBron. Red herrings aren't cool.

from the very first few posts, i've referred to lebron being efficient and kobe being semi-efficient. we've been through this

Right, but my point is that you don't necessarily need a team with HoF big game to win; that isn't the intrinsic formula to a championship. It yields a good success rate, but most of those teams had a dominant HoF perimeter player as well. Look no further than the current NBA landscape to resolve that point.

MJ was the exception, not the rule. we can debate this to death, but big men have long dominated the game starting from george mikan

Well specific to the Lakers, it'd basically be two bigs. Pau has never won a game in the Playoffs on his own and the one year Lamar played consistent basketball he played like ass in the Playoffs.

doesn't change the fact id rather build around big men over kobe.

Did you miss the part where after the All-Star break Kobe was averaging 7 assists. Did you miss the stat which showed Howard received the second highest amount of post touches, yet he did absolutely nothing with it. Pau has been misused all season and it wasn't until Kobe and Pau made it a concerted effort to get him the ball in the post was he effective (blame injuries and coaching). Again, there is nothing Kobe could do for Nash. The team struggled with Nash running the show because our floor spacers are jokes, which limits Nash's effectiveness. Did you want Kobe to go back in time, tell Phoenix Steve Nash to shoot the ball more and hope he would continue doing so in the future? He passes up shots, if you've watched Steve Nash in the past you should know this. It has nothing to do with Kobe stealing shots from Steve.

only one of the reasons we went 28 from 40 games to finish the season along with improved defense. if we'd had that from the beginning, we'd have been a 55 win team. more please

Not sure how this is a response to the quoted text, but lol at comparing peak LeBron with current Kobe. Never mind all the goodies LeBron has playing next to him.

physical ability aside, as far as stats go, this is still peak kobe

[moonpie]

[MistyMountain20]

the team started doing better because the lakers as a whole started playing passable defense coinciding with howard's back improving to level dwight could begin to look like the 3 DPOY he was.

Okay you ignored the portion of the quote of where I was directly responding to you, whatever.

I didn't say the Lakers improved play was only because of Bryant's play; Howard's defensive emergence coupled with Pau's later improved play and Blake playing out of his mind helped as well. But the Lakers still had difficulties even beating the weakest of teams; they need every bit of boxscore stuffing Kobe was doing at the time.

the lakers never had issues scoring

If that's the case, why do you have such an issue with the way Kobe plays. Offense is offense, right?

TS% scales from 0-150%, 150% if you shoot only 3s and hit 100% of them.

mid .600s = efficient, mid .500s = semi efficient. median = passable offense. we've been through this

No this is the first time you've explained what qualifies as efficient. So it's an arbitrary number like I said, that relates to nothing. Weird analysis, that means Michael Jordan was never efficient once in his career and that Tim Duncan's efficiency as a big man is embarrassing.

and this has what to do with this debate?

I was gonna open that topic after you elaborated on what is efficient, but clearly we have bigger issues before we can broach another sub-topic.

from the very first few posts, i've referred to lebron being efficient and kobe being semi-efficient. we've been through this

Right, his TS% as a benchmark. Not a PC where we're discussing who's better and why. Hence why this shouldn't be about Kobe vs LeBron.

MJ was the exception, not the rule. we can debate this to death, but big men have long dominated the game starting from george mikan

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce/Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli/Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, 2004/1990/1989 Pistons, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, etc. etc. etc.

This is the same thing like saying you need to be a defensive team in order to win a title. Yes there's plenty of support to it, but there's also plenty of support to the offensive side as well. It's the same thing here.

doesn't change the fact id rather build around big men over kobe.

Correct, big men. Like Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson etc. Pau and Lamar are not those players, so no I don't want to build around them over Kobe.

only one of the reasons we went 28 from 40 games to finish the season along with improved defense. if we'd had that from the beginning, we'd have been a 55 win team. more please

Has completely nothing to do with the quoted text. Yes if we would have been a good defensive team we would have had a better record. Who's arguing that.

physical ability aside, as far as stats go, this is still peak kobe

So aside from the other most critical part of being an effective basketball player, he's still the same, cool.

[Dr Aki]

I didn't say the Lakers improved play was only because of Bryant's play; Howard's defensive emergence coupled with Pau's later improved play and Blake playing out of his mind helped as well. But the Lakers still had difficulties even beating the weakest of teams; they need every bit of boxscore stuffing Kobe was doing at the time.

and if kobe hadn't been too busy scoreboard stuffing and fed the bigs/nash, we have bigger margins of victory and we mightn't have been in those situations in the first place.

If that's the case, why do you have such an issue with the way Kobe plays. Offense is offense, right?

because we would've won by larger margins and a wouldn't be reliant on kobe's offense.

No this is the first time you've explained what qualifies as efficient. So it's an arbitrary number like I said, that relates to nothing. Weird analysis, that means Michael Jordan was never efficient once in his career and that Tim Duncan's efficiency as a big man is embarrassing.

duncan brought various other qualities to the table aside from scoring. but as a scorer, he's not that great.

MJ most seasons would be considered semi-efficient. but at least he's topped .600 in 4 separate seasons

Right, his TS% as a benchmark. Not a PC where we're discussing who's better and why. Hence why this shouldn't be about Kobe vs LeBron.

fine. let's call it kobe's TS% vs the .600 TS% threshold. we don't have to involve lebron

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce/Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli/Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, 2004/1990/1989 Pistons, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, etc. etc. etc.

This is the same thing like saying you need to be a defensive team in order to win a title. Yes there's plenty of support to it, but there's also plenty of support to the offensive side as well. It's the same thing here.

are you seriously trying to argue that big men aren't more important than perimeter players.

Correct, big men. Like Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson etc. Pau and Lamar are not those players, so no I don't want to build around them over Kobe.

which wasn't my argument either, my argument was i'd pick lamar AND pau AND bynum over kobe

Has completely nothing to do with the quoted text. Yes if we would have been a good defensive team we would have had a better record. Who's arguing that.

i'm arguing kobe's new found selflessness midway through the season deserved a lot less credit than our defense and thus such an argument didn't hold as much weight

So aside from the other most critical part of being an effective basketball player, he's still the same, cool.

that's why there's this part of basketball called skills that has allowed kobe to stay relevant

anyway, im off to eat korean fire chicken. we'll continue this tomorrow

[EArl]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFI4CJdX66Y[/youtube]


Sign me up for Paul George.

[TyCobb]

Goddamn. Go Pacers!

[EArl]

Grizz off to a great start.

[makaveli_99]

memphis sucks man... blew such a big lead... at least make this a series damnit. Plus i have $ on them tonight.

damn duncan, 15 9 and 3, and the 4th just started - someone check his birth certif. he cant be 37

[makaveli_99]

ok so the Spurs will play the winner of Indi/Miami in the finals.

[RamonSessions7]

I thought the Spurs were supposed to be dominated like a round ago?

[Dr Aki]

DEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPP

[dockingsched]

grizz have em right where they want