RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

[colts18]

Huh? Where has Durant taken OKC? Where did he ever take an average team? Dude is paired with Westbrook, had Harden off the bench(now KMart), and had Ibaka/Thabo holding down the defense.

Kobe took a good team to a 11-1 playoff record, 3 Finals, 2 titles during his prime. Wade took a good Heat to a title in 2006. Tmac....well I agree Durant is better than Tmac.
Durant's scoring efficiency comes back to Earth when his uAST% FGs shoot up to the level of Kobe, Wade. He's no where near the playmaker as them, and not the defender either.

Pau Gasol was a better player than Westbrook. Gasol averaged 19-11-3, .610 TS%, 23 PER, .222 WS/48 during the 2 title runs while shutting down Howard and KG in the finals.

Durant was assisted on 28% of FG in the 2013 playoffs while having a .574 TS%. Kobe was at 34 assist% in 2010 with a .567 TS%.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Huh? Where has Durant taken OKC? Where did he ever take an average team? Dude is paired with Westbrook, had Harden off the bench(now KMart), and had Ibaka/Thabo holding down the defense.

Kobe took a good team to a 11-1 playoff record, 3 Finals, 2 titles during his prime. Wade took a good Heat to a title in 2006. Tmac....well I agree Durant is better than Tmac.
Durant's scoring efficiency comes back to Earth when his uAST% FGs shoot up to the level of Kobe, Wade. He's no where near the playmaker as them, and not the defender either.

Pau Gasol was a better player than Westbrook. Gasol averaged 19-11-3, .610 TS%, 23 PER, .222 WS/48 during the 2 title runs while shutting down Howard and KG in the finals.

Durant was assisted on 28% of FG in the 2013 playoffs while having a .574 TS%. Kobe was at 34 assist% in 2010 with a .567 TS%.

Pau Gasol is 0-16 in the PS without Kobe. His efficiency jumped once he started playing with Kobe. Westbrook is definitely on par with Pau, if not flatout better.

And the difference between 57.4% and 56.7% is pretty trivial, especially considering Kobe's came on a full playoff run.

[lorak]

Pau Gasol is 0-16 in the PS without Kobe.

Kobe without Shaq or Gasol missed playoffs once, blew 3-1 lead next year in 1st round and then lost 1-4 in 1st round.

[ardee]

Pau Gasol is 0-16 in the PS without Kobe.

Kobe without Shaq or Gasol missed playoffs once, blew 3-1 lead next year in 1st round and then lost 1-4 in 1st round.

Against the greatest offensive dynasty in history

He had an amazing series in '06 and a good one in '07. Not his fault Kwame couldn't get the rebound in '06 to win the series in game 6.

If you want to play that game...

Shaq without Penny, Kobe or Wade missed the Playoffs in one year, and wait a sec... He never spent a single prime year without any of them.

[colts18]

Pau Gasol is 0-16 in the PS without Kobe. His efficiency jumped once he started playing with Kobe. Westbrook is definitely on par with Pau, if not flatout better.

And the difference between 57.4% and 56.7% is pretty trivial, especially considering Kobe's came on a full playoff run.

Kobe without Shaq/Gasol is 0-2 in the playoffs and missed the playoffs the other year.

[colts18]

Shaq without Penny, Kobe or Wade missed the Playoffs in one year, and wait a sec... He never spent a single prime year without any of them.

Shaq won the 2000 title with Kobe completely disappearing in the finals. Kobe averaged like 15 PPG and under .500 TS%. Thats one of the worst finals ever for a top 5 player.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Pau Gasol is 0-16 in the PS without Kobe. His efficiency jumped once he started playing with Kobe. Westbrook is definitely on par with Pau, if not flatout better.

And the difference between 57.4% and 56.7% is pretty trivial, especially considering Kobe's came on a full playoff run.

Kobe without Shaq/Gasol is 0-2 in the playoffs and missed the playoffs the other year.

MJ is 0-3 in PS series, and 1-9 overall without Pippen.

I originally responded to this,"I think Durant is better at elevating already good teams than T-Mac/Kobe/Wade, and that's more important to me than lifting a bad team to above average."

The notion that KD has elevated good teams better than Kobe, or Wade for that matter, is untrue.

[ardee]

Shaq without Penny, Kobe or Wade missed the Playoffs in one year, and wait a sec... He never spent a single prime year without any of them.

Shaq won the 2000 title with Kobe completely disappearing in the finals. Kobe averaged like 15 PPG and under .500 TS%. Thats one of the worst finals ever for a top 5 player.

Right after Kobe saved the day in the WCF which was the real Finals.... It's like people just forget he put up 33/2/6/4/3 and 25/11/7/4 in those last two games when Shaq was having the toughest series of his prime against Sabonis.

Kobe was injured in those Finals, but for the year he was still a bona-fide top 6-8 player.... Better than Wade in '05 for example.

[colts18]

Right after Kobe saved the day in the WCF which was the real Finals.... It's like people just forget he put up 33/2/6/4/3 and 25/11/7/4 in those last two games when Shaq was having the toughest series of his prime against Sabonis.

Kobe was injured in those Finals, but for the year he was still a bona-fide top 6-8 player.... Better than Wade in '05 for example.

You make it seem like the Lakers coasted against the Pacers when in reality it wasn't like that. The Pacers actually outscored the Lakers in the series. Without Shaq, they get swept in that series. Shaq was the only thing holding that supporting cast together.

[B_Creamy]

Better than Wade in '05 for example.

Not completely on topic but no. He wasn't.

[therealbig3]

00 Kobe better than 05 Wade? What?

05 Wade was a superstar and a top 5 player in the game...00 Kobe was clearly worse.

[TheChosen618]

4. 12 LeBron James.

Are you not counting 2013 Lebron? or do you think 2012 Lebron was better? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the comparison.

[therealbig3]

4. 12 LeBron James.

Are you not counting 2013 Lebron? or do you think 2012 Lebron was better? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the comparison.

I believe I said that I'm not including the current season when I made that list.

I think 2013 LeBron is better than 2012 LeBron. I think his defense is less consistent this season, but his offense is a lot better. He seems to be moving better and can attack the basket in the halfcourt better, and he seems to be a much better shooter as well. Everything else is pretty much the same. I think he's got an argument for GOAT peak this year (although his playoffs aren't as outstanding as it should be for GOAT peak consideration, I'd probably put him right after 91 Jordan and 00 Shaq though, unless he has a monster playoff run from here on out, in which case, he's back in the mix).

For example, because of his improvement, he didn't even play all that well offensively in terms of his individual numbers against Chicago, but his impact was absolutely massive, because he demanded so much defensive attention, and he made the right plays.

[TheChosen618]

I believe I said that I'm not including the current season when I made that list.

Yes you did and I skipped through it by accident, but nevertheless I thank you for your well thought-out post.

I think 2013 LeBron is better than 2012 LeBron. I think his defense is less consistent this season, but his offense is a lot better. He seems to be moving better and can attack the basket in the halfcourt better, and he seems to be a much better shooter as well. Everything else is pretty much the same.

I feel like 2012 Lebron and 2013 Lebron is relatively similar to comparing 2009 Lebron and 2010 Lebron with 2012 being 2009 and 2013 being 2010.

People were saying the same about Lebron in 2010 that his defense wasn't very consistent and his energy level wasn't as high. I feel like it's the same case with 2013 Lebron. 2012 Lebron was incredibly relentless and played with high energy level night in and night out in every aspect of the game. 2013 Lebron hasn't been like that. My other problem with 2013 Lebron is that he isn't going to the post as much anymore (hardly ever) and is taking a bit longer to make decisions. He was pretty quick with his decisions last season and his post-play killed OKC in the Finals.

However, if Lebron keeps up his play from the ECF, then I'll say 2013 Lebron is pretty easily better than 2012 Lebron. The problem is that he hasn't been playing with that high energy and intensity all season long. I hope he does play like that next season though, a combination of 2012 and 2013 Lebron.

I kind of get why though. He played in a condensed schedule last season and then he had the Olympics in the off-season and then he had this season shortly. He is probably fatigued or willing to unleash everything when the time is right. Now is a good time with his team sucking so far in the ECF.

I think he's got an argument for GOAT peak this year (although his playoffs aren't as outstanding as it should be for GOAT peak consideration, I'd probably put him right after 91 Jordan and 00 Shaq though, unless he has a monster playoff run from here on out, in which case, he's back in the mix).

I think next year will be his best shot unless he finishes the ECF and Finals like the way he has been playing in these first two games in the ECF so far.

For example, because of his improvement, he didn't even play all that well offensively in terms of his individual numbers against Chicago, but his impact was absolutely massive, because he demanded so much defensive attention, and he made the right plays.

I don't think that's an example of how Lebron has improved as it is how smart the Bulls were defensively.

[JordansBulls]

Pau Gasol is 0-16 in the PS without Kobe. His efficiency jumped once he started playing with Kobe. Westbrook is definitely on par with Pau, if not flatout better.

And the difference between 57.4% and 56.7% is pretty trivial, especially considering Kobe's came on a full playoff run.

Kobe without Shaq/Gasol is 0-2 in the playoffs and missed the playoffs the other year.

MJ is 0-3 in PS series, and 1-9 overall without Pippen.

I originally responded to this,"I think Durant is better at elevating already good teams than T-Mac/Kobe/Wade, and that's more important to me than lifting a bad team to above average."

The notion that KD has elevated good teams better than Kobe, or Wade for that matter, is untrue.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.

Bulls would have still probably been 1-9 against the 85 Bucks, 86 Celtics and 87 Celtics if you added Prime Pippen to those Bulls teams.

[NaturalThunder]

Why would you put him over TMac, Kobe, and Wade? They're all basically the same players other than Kobe, Wade, and TMac being better suited to unipolar teams (but all of them still being good in teams with others).

I think Durant is better at elevating already good teams than T-Mac/Kobe/Wade, and that's more important to me than lifting a bad team to above average.

Huh? Where has Durant taken OKC? Where did he ever take an average team? Dude is paired with Westbrook, had Harden off the bench(now KMart), and had Ibaka/Thabo holding down the defense.

Kobe took a good team to a 11-1 playoff record, 3 Finals, 2 titles during his prime. Wade took a good Heat to a title in 2006. Tmac....well I agree Durant is better than Tmac.

Durant's scoring efficiency comes back to Earth when his uAST% FGs shoot up to the level of Kobe, Wade. He's no where near the playmaker as them, and not the defender either.

Nowhere near the playmaker? He may not be quite as good Wade and Kobe in that regard, but he's definitely better than (when given the responsibility of being the primary playmaker) "nowhere close."

[soxfan2003]

I'm not sure this has been discussed but in general I think most players peak seasons have been captured. The order is obvious up for debate but in general a reasonable job has been done but I'd put Lebron's peak season up there higher since I believe it may be better then Jordan's after you adjust for the improved level of competition today. Sure Jordan more dominant in the finals but in his most dominant finals he just wasn't usually facing very good defenses. I'm also someone that would tend to vote the dominant centers higher.

There is one glaring error IMHO unless I miss the criteria which I may have. I don't think anybody could ever convince me that Barkley was as good with the Suns as he was in his prime with Philly. Was there any Philly fans from the 80's that were on the panel and how did they vote? Since I was a diehard Celtics fan and I was a Danny Ainge fan I followed Barkley's career with the Suns and Philly very closely. Watched lots of his games..remembered his interviews. In an interview back then with Phoenix, Barkley even said himself that his best years were with Philly and not in Phoenix. Much better offensively and better on defense as well. The difference in records was just that Phoenix had some good to great players supporting him and Philly truly had some terrible supporting casts for Barkley during his prime. Some of the names may have been good such as Andrew Toney but during Barkley's peak seasons with Philly Toney wasn't that good at all.

Prime Barkley with Philly for about 4 years was an absolute monster but he was usually playing with much less talent then Lebron in Cleveland.

When you consider NBA players on average peak at 24-25, Barkley's stats by far are the best around that age -- led the NBA in TS% 4 years straight -- and Barkley himself when he was having his MVP year with Phoenix readily admitted he was better in Philly earlier in his career. By the end of Barkley's career in Philly he had already declined and that makes sense since he didn't really do a good job in taking care of his body at all. Barkley is one of those guys who lost a good deal of his athleticism at a young age.

Prime Philly Barkley with that cast of characters in Phoenix probably beats the Jordan Bulls in 5 games instead of losing in 6.

[soxfan2003]

I think Durant is better at elevating already good teams than T-Mac/Kobe/Wade, and that's more important to me than lifting a bad team to above average.

Huh? Where has Durant taken OKC? Where did he ever take an average team? Dude is paired with Westbrook, had Harden off the bench(now KMart), and had Ibaka/Thabo holding down the defense.

Kobe took a good team to a 11-1 playoff record, 3 Finals, 2 titles during his prime. Wade took a good Heat to a title in 2006. Tmac....well I agree Durant is better than Tmac.

Durant's scoring efficiency comes back to Earth when his uAST% FGs shoot up to the level of Kobe, Wade. He's no where near the playmaker as them, and not the defender either.

Nowhere near the playmaker? He may not be quite as good Wade and Kobe in that regard, but he's definitely better than (when given the responsibility of being the primary playmaker) "nowhere close."

Durant was the best player by a large margin on OKC when they went to the finals. That can never be said about Kobe IMHO..perhaps 1 year. Frankly I don't think Kobe was anything that special his last 2 finals appearances compared to Durant these last 2 seasons.

Kobe had players like Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum. Extremely impressive supporting cast and he obviously had prime Shaq for the 3 peat who was the most dominant playoff force I've ever seen.

IMHO Durant last year and this year reached a higher level then Kobe has ever reached. Durant's finals appearance considering he was guarded by Lebron at times is one of the best in nba history.

In a sport such as basketball it ridiculous to downgrade him for Harden having a very bad series and missing open shots, Westbrook a mediocre series and guys like Miller/Battier having great series by role player standards for the Heat.

And I don't think Durant should be penalized much for scoring 28-30 ppg very efficiently instead of trying to score 35 ppg less efficiently.

Trying to score too much was one of Kobe's problems and quite frankly with a better officiated 4th quarter of game 7 in 2010, it probably would have cost LA a championship when they had the better team.

[ardee]

Durant was the best player by a large margin on OKC when they went to the finals. That can never be said about Kobe IMHO..perhaps 1 year. Frankly I don't think Kobe was anything that special his last 2 finals appearances compared to Durant these last 2 seasons.

Kobe had players like Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum. Extremely impressive supporting cast and he obviously had prime Shaq for the 3 peat who was the most dominant playoff force I've ever seen.

IMHO Durant last year and this year reached a higher level then Kobe has ever reached. Durant's finals appearance considering he was guarded by Lebron at times is one of the best in nba history.

In a sport such as basketball it ridiculous to downgrade him for Harden having a very bad series and missing open shots, Westbrook a mediocre series and guys like Miller/Battier having great series by role player standards for the Heat.

And I don't think Durant should be penalized much for scoring 28-30 ppg very efficiently instead of trying to score 35 ppg less efficiently.

Trying to score too much was one of Kobe's problems and quite frankly with a better officiated 4th quarter of game 7 in 2010, it probably would have cost LA a championship when they had the better team.

Are you saying that the difference between Durant and Westbrook is greater than Kobe and Pau?!

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm not sure this has been discussed but in general I think most players peak seasons have been captured. The order is obvious up for debate but in general a reasonable job has been done but I'd put Lebron's peak season up there higher since I believe it may be better then Jordan's after you adjust for the improved level of competition today. Sure Jordan more dominant in the finals but in his most dominant finals he just wasn't usually facing very good defenses. I'm also someone that would tend to vote the dominant centers higher.

There is one glaring error IMHO unless I miss the criteria which I may have. I don't think anybody could ever convince me that Barkley was as good with the Suns as he was in his prime with Philly. Was there any Philly fans from the 80's that were on the panel and how did they vote? Since I was a diehard Celtics fan and I was a Danny Ainge fan I followed Barkley's career with the Suns and Philly very closely. Watched lots of his games..remembered his interviews. In an interview back then with Phoenix, Barkley even said himself that his best years were with Philly and not in Phoenix.

Every time I've seen Barkley speak on the subject, he said he was better in Philly than in Phoenix, and when he won MVP, he said he had several seasons better in Philly.