2013 Draft Targets (#9, #26, #52, #59)

[cube]

A thing that bothers me about McLemore is just how dumb and passive he is. His combine interview is cringe-worthy..."upsize" instead of upside.

I don't think he is too dumb, he just seemed to be extremely nervous.

I love Oladipo, but I hate his shot mechanics, just no lift at all. Our first priority should be getting a SG, who can shoot and doesn't get abused on defense. Rookie McLemore instantly fits both, plus he has great upside. Oladipos ceiling seems more like an elite role player, wouldn't hate having him, but would take McLemore if I had to choose.

[Gideon]

A thing that bothers me about McLemore is just how dumb and passive he is. His combine interview is cringe-worthy..."upsize" instead of upside.

I don't think he is too dumb, he just seemed to be extremely nervous.

I love Oladipo, but I hate his shot mechanics, just no lift at all. Our first priority should be getting a SG, who can shoot and doesn't get abused on defense. Rookie McLemore instantly fits both, plus he has great upside. Oladipos ceiling seems more like an elite role player, wouldn't hate having him, but would take McLemore if I had to choose.

I'll have to watch his shot again... do you just want him to jump higher when he shoots or is there something in the actual form that bothers you? I thought his form was just about right on when I watched him... main and guide hands in the correct positions, shoots up (many players shoot too much forward), gets good arc and rotation on the ball, and has a nice follow-through most of the time. I did notice that he sometimes neglects to completely follow-through, but that would be easy to fix, and that was the only (minor) flaw I noticed. I wasn't paying much attention to his lift, though... I would have noticed if he was set-shooting or something, but I don't remember how high he was getting.

[Klomp]

Oladipos ceiling seems more like an elite role player, wouldn't hate having him, but would take McLemore if I had to choose.

This is an interesting point to consider.

I actually think Oladipo's ceiling is much higher. But along with that ceiling comes a high floor. With McLemore, the gap between floor and ceiling is MUCH larger.

[AQuintus]

A thing that bothers me about McLemore is just how dumb and passive he is. His combine interview is cringe-worthy..."upsize" instead of upside.

Every time Magic Johnson speaks is equally "cringe-worthy" and he's arguably the smartest player basketball-wise ever. BBIQ and regular IQ are 2 very different things, and BBIQ is the only one that matters in the NBA.

[Gideon]

A thing that bothers me about McLemore is just how dumb and passive he is. His combine interview is cringe-worthy..."upsize" instead of upside.

Every time Magic Johnson speaks is equally "cringe-worthy" and he's arguably the smartest player basketball-wise ever. BBIQ and regular IQ are 2 very different things, and BBIQ is the only one that matters in the NBA.

I disagree with this. I think regular IQ and BBIQ are pretty closely related. Magic actually had a number of mental errors in key situations and frequently made poor decisions during his first 3 or 4 seasons (much of the "Tragic Johnson" stuff had to do with this). Eventually, something clicked for him and he became the player we think of nowadays, but decision-making was a major weakness of his for years before he finally overcame that issue.

I can't think of another situation like Magic, where somebody made that sort of jump in BBIQ. I think it happens very, very rarely.

[moss_is_1]

I've moved to thinking I want VO over McLemore. Hard for me to say as a KU homer, but I've always thought that McLemore didn't deserve to be as high as people have him.

Oladipo, IMO, will at least be a high level defender and someone who is lethal in transition. McLemore could turn out to be a slightly more athletic Morrow, or a better shooting Brandon Rush.

A thing that bothers me about McLemore is just how dumb and passive he is. His combine interview is cringe-worthy..."upsize" instead of upside.

Ive heard he is a really good kid. Bill self said he would hope his child would grow up to the the type of man that Mcelmore is. And that he is also the best player he has ever coached. Regardless of that I also question his intelligence. But he seems very hardworking as well, he was a big man until high school pretty much, so he developed the best jumpshot in college in a very short amount of time.

In terms of ability right now I would prefer MCelmore, but I think VO is a safer pick because of the intangibles he brings as well as his work ethic.



that being said I would be happy with having either as them as our SG of the future and wouldnt be mad if we chose either one.

I read the reports of him being a pf and self loving the kid...but I also saw Self say Ben is a lit like Brandon Rush...where he had to push them to stop being so passive. Now, I think Ben has more talent and nba potential then rush....but still somewhat scary to hear since rush is merely a decent bench guy.

[Klomp]

I read the reports of him being a pf and self loving the kid...but I also saw Self say Ben is a lit like Brandon Rush...where he had to push them to stop being so passive. Now, I think Ben has more talent and nba potential then rush....but still somewhat scary to hear since rush is merely a decent bench guy.

Look at the list of guys Self has put in the NBA. Other than Deron Williams, the next best player on the list is Mario Chalmers. Hardly impressive...

Meanwhile, while Crean's list isn't extremely long, he has a very good history of putting SGs in the league with Dwyane Wade and Eric Gordon.

[zauchary]

I'll take KCP ocer Oladipo. I agree, Oladipo's shot mechanics are really bad. I know he shot a good percentage this year, but I'm not buying it. I think KCP has potential to be an elite shooter in this league, he's great in the open floor, great at getting into passing lanes, shows great hustle with 6 boards a game. Needs to bulk up to take contact and that's about it.

[NikolaPekovic]

I'll take KCP ocer Oladipo. I agree, Oladipo's shot mechanics are really bad. I know he shot a good percentage this year, but I'm not buying it. I think KCP has potential to be an elite shooter in this league, he's great in the open floor, great at getting into passing lanes, shows great hustle with 6 boards a game. Needs to bulk up to take contact and that's about it.

cant go wrong with any of the 3. I just dont want McCollum cause his size.

[Gideon]

I'll take KCP ocer Oladipo. I agree, Oladipo's shot mechanics are really bad. I know he shot a good percentage this year, but I'm not buying it. I think KCP has potential to be an elite shooter in this league, he's great in the open floor, great at getting into passing lanes, shows great hustle with 6 boards a game. Needs to bulk up to take contact and that's about it.

How are Oladipo's shot mechanics bad? I just don't see it. His form is good (main and guide hand in correct positions, shooting up instead of forward), he gets good arc and rotation on the ball, usually follows through (I've seen him neglect to follow through every so often, but that's the only problem I've seen with his shot and it's quite minor). What's wrong with his mechanics?

[Yes We Kahn]

I read the reports of him being a pf and self loving the kid...but I also saw Self say Ben is a lit like Brandon Rush...where he had to push them to stop being so passive. Now, I think Ben has more talent and nba potential then rush....but still somewhat scary to hear since rush is merely a decent bench guy.

Look at the list of guys Self has put in the NBA. Other than Deron Williams, the next best player on the list is Mario Chalmers. Hardly impressive...

Meanwhile, while Crean's list isn't extremely long, he has a very good history of putting SGs in the league with Dwyane Wade and Eric Gordon.

Wasn't Gordon under Sampson?

[Klomp]

Wasn't Gordon under Sampson?

Good catch. I was reading Wikipedia too fast.

[horaceworthy]

A thing that bothers me about McLemore is just how dumb and passive he is. His combine interview is cringe-worthy..."upsize" instead of upside.

Every time Magic Johnson speaks is equally "cringe-worthy" and he's arguably the smartest player basketball-wise ever. BBIQ and regular IQ are 2 very different things, and BBIQ is the only one that matters in the NBA.

I disagree with this. I think regular IQ and BBIQ are pretty closely related. Magic actually had a number of mental errors in key situations and frequently made poor decisions during his first 3 or 4 seasons (much of the "Tragic Johnson" stuff had to do with this). Eventually, something clicked for him and he became the player we think of nowadays, but decision-making was a major weakness of his for years before he finally overcame that issue.

I can't think of another situation like Magic, where somebody made that sort of jump in BBIQ. I think it happens very, very rarely.

Magic won two championships in his first three years and was Finals MVP each time. His Game 6 performance as a rookie is legendary. The Tragic Johnson stuff was mostly due to his pre-Riley reputation as a spoiled coach-killer and Bird starting to win championships at Magic's expense. He got better as time went on because he worked at it, but his BBIQ, feel for the game, whatever you want to call it was always elite.

The something clicked case is made every time a guy goes from not having best player on a championship team status to having it (Kareem had that status in most people's eyes the first two championships). Jordan, LeBron and Kobe are probably the three most obvious examples.

Feel for a particular sport and being smart are not one and the same. Christian Ponder graduated in two and a half years, earned an MBA and was on his way to a second graduate degree before the Vikings drafted him and he still hasn't figured out that it helps to look off a safety from time to time. After Peyton Manning was drafted he had to call his girlfriend and ask her how to use a can opener.

It's nice if a guy can give a good interview, but that doesn't mean he's going to make the correct defensive rotation.

[Gideon]

I just don't agree with that... yes, Magic was a really talented player and he rose to the occasion in some really big moments early in his career... he still made LOTS of huge errors, including really boneheaded stuff like dribbling out the clock when the score was tied in a NBA Finals game. If you had referred to him as a high-BBIQ player before 85 or so, I think people would have been absolutely perplexed. It did take Magic a while to have the game click for him in a BBIQ sense, and I don't think "the something clicked case" is some trope that's constantly trotted out... at least it isn't by me, and I really don't think random assertions about various NFL quarterbacks have any relevance here either.

Also, the biggest "Tragic Johnson" sequence of events BY FAR was in the 1984 Finals (dribbles out clock with score tied mistakenly thinking his team is ahead, misses two likely game-clinching free throws, turns the ball over on dumb plays late in two different games) long after the coach-killer controversy... arguing that Magic was always a high-BBIQ player is totally revisionist history.

BTW Magic didn't even play PG most of the time for his first four seasons... it took the Lakers four years before they finally trusted him enough to really give him the reins and trade Norm Nixon. The development of Magic's BBIQ is such an anomaly that using Magic as an example to argue that real-life intelligence is irrelevant in basketball is like using Barkley as an example to argue that 6'5 is the perfect height for a power forward.

[horaceworthy]

I haven’t watched nearly as much basketball this year as years past. The awfulness of the Gopher and Wolves seasons broke me and I ended up taking a year off of disappointment. Usually I pay a lot more attention and do some simple number crunching for every draft class, but I’ve been too busy to do so this year. Still, here are some of my thoughts on this year’s draft. Forgive the length please, it sort of snowballed.

Guys that should be gone

Nerlens Noel- Injured and skinny, but the appeal is obvious.

Ben Mclemore- The talent is apparent but I wish he was a bit more polished. His lack of a confident handle in the halfcourt limits the ways he can take advantage of his explosiveness. Like Shabazz, him being 20 years old does take a little away from his freshman wow factor, but it’s not a deal-breaker.

Alex Len- Len’s the leader of an interesting group of non-#1 pick big men.

Victor Oladipo- It’s ridiculous to say his worst case scenario is Iggy-lite...but it’s so easy to see him doing so much of what Iggy does.

Otto Porter- 6’8”-ish guys who can shoot, pass and defend never go out of style.

Guys I hope will be gone

Trey Burke- Other needs are far too pressing to use a lotto pick on a point guard.

Anthony Bennett- Same issue as Burke, different position.

CJ McCollum- I really want to like McCollum. Curry and Cassell are two of my favorite players ever and if McCollum were to pan out he’d likely resemble that type of guard. I’m not completely sold he has that caliber a shot. I hope he goes before #9 so I can avoid a complicated mixture of relief and disappointment.

Cody Zeller- I’m not as down on him as most, as there are worse things out there than a 6’11” guy who hustles, has nice touch, a good feel for the game and plus athleticism. Unfortunately, like most Gopher fans I got a chance to see his frightened turtle act against Mbakwe, so I can’t pump his tires too much.

Shabazz Muhammad- His upside is something like Caron Butler with better range, but he’s got just enough Alando Tucker to him to worry me. I think the age knock is a bit overblown, he’s 3 month older than Mclemore and 4 months older than Bennett.

Michael Carter-Williams- I’m somebody who likes to think that the tournament means something. Carter-Williams was the hardest guy to stay in front of in the tournament, thus I’m a bigger fan of his than many around here. That being said, I recognize that he’s a terrible fit for this particular team, and hope he goes early and pushes somebody else down.

Guys I hope are there

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope- Minnesota and Caldwell-Pope may be the most obvious marriage of team need and player projected to be available in the draft. The guy took 7 threes per game and still managed to grab 7 boards and get to the line 5 times per game. He’s also a week younger than McLemore, for whatever that’s worth. There are still some facets of his game that could use polishing, but I’m very excited at the prospect of him sharing a backcourt with Rubio for the foreseeable future.

Rudy Gobert- I haven’t seen him play much, and I’m pretty sure his last name is French for Go-gurt. The little I have seen reminds me a bit of Valanciunas. Jonas was sturdier, but Gobert seems to have a similar combination of length, mobility, touch and realization his bread is buttered around the rim.


Guys I’m intrigued by (not necessarily at #9)

Archie Goodwin- The youngest collegian in the draft, and looked like an early lottery pick toward the start of the season. He fell off badly as the season went on, but he’s still got a good first step and size/athleticism combo.

Giannis Adetokunbo- Great size for the small forward position, confident handle, and looks to be active. It would behoove him to move on from the set shot, as it doesn’t allow him to take full advantage of his length.

Steven Adams- He had a rough freshman season, but he’s a large human being. He’d also add a new accent to the collection. Steep learning curve.

Gorgui Dieng- I’m still trying to figure out if he’s more Taj Gibson or Ekpe Udoh, but he brings the ruckus on the defensive end and has shown some interesting attributes on offense. Age is a concern but he’s a good fit.

Dario Saric- 6’10”, versatile, skilled, tremendous feel for the game.

Allen Crabbe- Outside shooting is a huge need, Crabbe can shoot, has good size for a swingman and is active off the ball.

Reggie Bullock- As mentioned, outside shooting is a need, and he’s a guy that contributes at both ends of the floor.

Jamaal Franklin- Tough wing defense is another need and that’s something Franklin will need to provide if he hopes to have a decent NBA career.

Sergey Karasev - All the Russians will be ours.

Bebe Nogueira- Feel like I’ve been reading about him forever. Active guys with a near 7’5” wingspan are worth a flyer at some point in the draft.

Ricky Ledo- The lure of the unknown and a decent showing on Youtube.

Erick Green- Extremely productive scoring guard who got better every year. Didn’t have much help at Virginia Tech, quick and fast, can shoot and has a knack for getting buckets. Could be a nice first guard off the bench, microwave type.

Mouhammadou Jaiteh- Somewhat interesting draft and stash candidate.

Trevor Mbakwe- Apparently he’s a 6’7” 7 footer. Hearing Flip talk it seems like the only way he doesn’t leave this draft a member of the Timberwolves is if he goes before 52.

Alex Abrines- The last RFCB alum has worked out alright for us.

[moss_is_1]

Look at the list of guys Self has put in the NBA. Other than Deron Williams, the next best player on the list is Mario Chalmers. Hardly impressive...

Meanwhile, while Crean's list isn't extremely long, he has a very good history of putting SGs in the league with Dwyane Wade and Eric Gordon.

While thats true...Self doesnt really recruit nba type stars. His recruits are generally guys who will still 2,3,4 years and be great college guys. The high profile recruits like Josh Selby and Xavier Henry werent very impressive in college. ..and no one really predicted stars. Self seems to get the most out of his rec4uits.

[cube]

I'll have to watch his shot again... do you just want him to jump higher when he shoots or is there something in the actual form that bothers you? I thought his form was just about right on when I watched him... main and guide hands in the correct positions, shoots up (many players shoot too much forward), gets good arc and rotation on the ball, and has a nice follow-through most of the time. I did notice that he sometimes neglects to completely follow-through, but that would be easy to fix, and that was the only (minor) flaw I noticed. I wasn't paying much attention to his lift, though... I would have noticed if he was set-shooting or something, but I don't remember how high he was getting.

I watched his shot again, and I was wrong. It seemed to me that he didn't jump high enough while shooting in the draft workout video, but in actual games he does jump.

[nickforthreee]

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope- Minnesota and Caldwell-Pope may be the most obvious marriage of team need and player projected to be available in the draft. The guy took 7 threes per game and still managed to grab 7 boards and get to the line 5 times per game. He’s also a week younger than McLemore, for whatever that’s worth. There are still some facets of his game that could use polishing, but I’m very excited at the prospect of him sharing a backcourt with Rubio for the foreseeable future.

besides what Marcus Smart and the Magic could have been, KCP and the wolves seems like the most perfect fit for any prospect and team. kid was triple teamed in college at times and still managed to score. with k love down low and Rubio running point he is going to be open A LOT. the ability to run off screens and have Rubio throw him pin point passes to id say the 2nd best shooter (besides allen crabbe) in this draft would make a deadly backcourt for the next 10-15 years. KCP has allstar potential. can score in so many ways. how many 3 point shooting 2 guards do you know that average 7 rebounds and get many chase down blocks like LeBron? not many. hes also athletic enough to catch a lob every now and then

[Klomp]

I admit, I do like KCP. But I like Oladipo even more.

I'd rank the three: Oladipo, Caldwell-Pope, McLemore

[[RCG]]

Dream scenario: #9 for Utah's #14 & #21.

#14: Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
#21: Giannis Adetokunbo/Rudy Gobert
#26: Gorgui Dieng/Tony Mitchell/Sergey Karasev