Paul George vs Carmelo Anthony?

[tsherkin]

I took it from 20-20.9 feet .

An odd sample, and unmarked, and not specified for RS or PS.

Melo's a better scorer than George, we know this and I don't dispute it. And in the RS, Melo was very good. Not great, but close to it. Very, very good. Perhaps his finest season, butting up against the bottom end of Kobe's career as a scorer (though not as a total offensive player, or defender).

That said, I think people overvalue scoring volume to begin with. New York got the bum end of the trade, IMO. Hardly a BAD trade for them, but I don't think they made out as well as Denver.

Anyway, I think the versatile game George brings, and his lack of ego regarding scoring, make him a little more valuable on average than Melo. Especially to a team like Indy, which is essentially built like the 01 Sixers, only with broader offensive distribution. On a squad like that, or the Bulls, you can afford a weaker scorer, particularly if he also adds D. There are some built-in limitations without a great offensive player, of course, but I think Indy is demonstrating the validity of their model rather well, personally.

[Joao Saraiva]

What? George is winning by a lot?! Damn!

I guess you just have to show some basketball against the Heat to be considered elite. Melo was 3rd in MVP votes for a reason. Scoring champ. There's no way anyone should be choosing George! I doubt he'll even make top 5 in MVP votes EVER.

[E-Balla]

I took it from 20-20.9 feet .

An odd sample, and unmarked, and not specified for RS or PS.

Melo's a better scorer than George, we know this and I don't dispute it. And in the RS, Melo was very good. Not great, but close to it. Very, very good. Perhaps his finest season, butting up against the bottom end of Kobe's career as a scorer (though not as a total offensive player, or defender).

That said, I think people overvalue scoring volume to begin with. New York got the bum end of the trade, IMO. Hardly a BAD trade for them, but I don't think they made out as well as Denver.

Anyway, I think the versatile game George brings, and his lack of ego regarding scoring, make him a little more valuable on average than Melo. Especially to a team like Indy, which is essentially built like the 01 Sixers, only with broader offensive distribution. On a squad like that, or the Bulls, you can afford a weaker scorer, particularly if he also adds D. There are some built-in limitations without a great offensive player, of course, but I think Indy is demonstrating the validity of their model rather well, personally.

It was a half joke. You said 20 feet so I got a 20 feet sample.

And the Pacers are built for a scorer. If they had Melo they'd be so much better. George doesn't bring much offensively other than a distraction to the post play and a entry pass (which has been very noticeable at times against Miami).

And look a the Knicks and adenver before the trade. Denver before the trade was a 50+ win team and first round exit (they actually made the WCF with their core though). Now they're a 50+ win team and first round exit with their cap still completely taken like it was before the trade and the only promising, young players they have they didn't get because of the trade.

Meanwhile NY was a .500 team being led by a player that was 2 months from breaking down and after the trade turned Chauncey into Tyson and got Melo - the two players that led their team to a 54 win season and their first playoff wins in 10 years.

I'm struggling to see how Denver won here...

[tsherkin]

It was a half joke. You said 20 feet so I got a 20 feet sample.

It was all joke, given that it was a 10-foot swath, but then, I never intended to say George was as good a shooter as Melo, so we're even.

And the Pacers are built for a scorer. If they had Melo they'd be so much better. George doesn't bring much offensively other than a distraction to the post play and a entry pass (which has been very noticeable at times against Miami).

He's certainly not an elite offensive player, but he can get past his defender and make a pass, generally. Melo is much better at creating offense, but he's still a middling-efficiency player for a volume scorer and awful in the playoffs, much worse than the true elite.

And look a the Knicks and adenver before the trade. Denver before the trade was a 50+ win team and first round exit (they actually made the WCF with their core though). Now they're a 50+ win team and first round exit with their cap still completely taken like it was before the trade and the only promising, young players they have they didn't get because of the trade.

So you're saying they lost a focal star and didn't lose a step, plus they have tons of assets....

I'm seeing win.

It's nice to be in the Leastern Conference, sure, but the ceilings on these teams aren't much different and Denver has more options.

[E-Balla]

Denver with Chauncey and Melo pre trade had 2 seasons. 1 WCF appearance, 1 first round loss. Since the trade they haven't won a playoff series. They got worse post trade. NY got better. NY won the trade. It's simple math really. Would you say NY and Denver had a comparable ceiling before the trade?

He's certainly not an elite offensive player, but he can get past his defender and make a pass, generally. Melo is much better at creating offense, but he's still a middling-efficiency player for a volume scorer and awful in the playoffs, much worse than the true elite.

He's not middling. If a team was as efficient as Melo they'd be the best offense in the league. If a team was as efficient as George they'd be the 20th ranked offense.

Melo was bad in the playoffs but George has been worse. Say what you want about Melo being one dimensional but his passing looked great when Felton went down and he was averaging 4+ assists a game while being the only playmaker. He's one dimensional because the team falls for it.

And this game is a great example of why I hate George offensively. They somehow think giving him the ball is a good idea and they let Miami go on a few runs because they moved from the post.

[RebelWithACause]

65 % George!
That is what I call prisoner of the Moment!

This should be clearly Melo!

If you swap them and George is on the Knicks they get clearly worse!
If you put Melo on the Pacers they even get better!
Of the other 28 teams Melo is probably the better fit as well on at least 18-20 teams!

Their defense would still be elite, they loose some of course but would still have 4 excellent defenders and 1 average one!
Their defense clearly is a Team effort anchored by Hibbert.

Food for thought: Melo also is One of the best SF defenders against LeBron!

So basically Pacers get much better scoring, comparable rebounding, bit weaker passing and they loose D!
All in all they still get much better though!

Carmelo was not good this Playoffs, but his injury and lack of help were the Main reasons for the Knicks failure!
Very small Sample size as well!

In 64 Games (excluding the 3 be4 he got his knee drained) he averaged 29.6 ppg on 56.5 % TS
This is elite and tops everything of PG!

Side Note:
Paul George indeed is a very good young Player, but to put him over Melo at this point is laughable!
Also PG does not possess Superstar-Potential!
He is not good enough on offense to become one and never will be!
The comparisons to T-Mac need to stop as well, this is an insult to McGrady.
He was 1000 times a better talent and Player than PG ever will be!
PG will more likely be a slightly better Iguodala type with better shooting but worse passing

[bondom34]

2 things:

1. It all matters what a team needs! For the Knicks, melo's their best scoring threat, and fits better into the role he has to play than PG would. If they switched, it would suck for both, and Melo wouldn't work for Indy either, I dont think its fair to say Indy is better with melo or NY better with PG. I like PGs game better, and would rather him on a team I would hypothetically be running, as I value pure volume scoring little, that being said I still respect Melo and his scoring ability.

2. Completely unrelated, but I love this thread, its my best entertainment after every Pacers game.

[MeloMIracle]

Don't derail threads with pointless one-word responses.

[Nuntius]

And the Pacers are built for a scorer. If they had Melo they'd be so much better.

Eeerm, no. The Pacers are not built for a scorer. We are built on our defensive identity. We certainly need some scoring help (especially off the bench) but the key to our success is that all of our players have bought into our team concept of a balanced offensive attack and that defense is the key to victory.

Can Melo buy into a balanced offensive attack? Can Melo buy into a defense-first concept?

If the answer is no to either of the two questions then the Pacers wouldn't be better with him.

[tsherkin]

I think the Pacers would suffer from the massive drop-off in D, personally. Also, with West and Hibbert in the post, I don't see Melo getting a lot of his favorite sets on offense either.

[E-Balla]

And the Pacers are built for a scorer. If they had Melo they'd be so much better.

Eeerm, no. The Pacers are not built for a scorer. We are built on our defensive identity. We certainly need some scoring help (especially off the bench) but the key to our success is that all of our players have bought into our team concept of a balanced offensive attack and that defense is the key to victory.

Can Melo buy into a balanced offensive attack? Can Melo buy into a defense-first concept?

If the answer is no to either of the two questions then the Pacers wouldn't be better with him.

The 2010 Nuggets (3rd ranked offense) were definetly balanced with Chauncey putting up 20/3/6, JR putting up 15/3/2, and Melo putting up 28/7/3. Every starter other than Affalo was in double digits.

Knicks were the 5th ranked defense last season so he's played on a defensive team too.

The Pacers have a team made for a great scorer and one player not being great defensively isn't going to make the number one defense suck.

[Nuntius]

I think the Pacers would suffer from the massive drop-off in D, personally. Also, with West and Hibbert in the post, I don't see Melo getting a lot of his favorite sets on offense either.

Agreed 100%.

[Nuntius]

The 2010 Nuggets (3rd ranked offense) were definetly balanced with Chauncey putting up 20/3/6, JR putting up 15/3/2, and Melo putting up 28/7/3. Every starter other than Affalo was in double digits.

You're talking about this team, right?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2010.html

Melo took 21.8 FGA per game. JR took 13.8 FGA per game off the bench. Billups took 13.2 FGA per game. Kenyon Martin took 10.7 FGA. Nene only took 8.7 FGA but he was crazy efficient and was able to put up 13.8 PPG despite a small number of FGA.

The scoring was kinda spread but that's what George Karl does the best. How much did those Nuggets run? A lot. They had the 5th best pace in the league at 94.8. They also put up 106.5 PPG which was good enough for 3rd in the league.

So, yeah. They scored a lot but that was because they run a lot. Indiana does not run. We're bottom five in pace. Given the discrepancy of FGA between Melo and the rest of the team, it wouldn't bode well for our other starters.

Knicks were the 5th ranked defense last season so he's played on a defensive team too.

And that's why Chandler was DPOY last season. Woodson is also a quite good defensive coach. They did bought into his defensive system for a bit. But how good this same team was this season defensively? They were only mediocre.

The Pacers have a team made for a great scorer and one player not being great defensively isn't going to make the number one defense suck.

Melo wouldn't make our defense suck but PG is a huge reason why our D was #1.

[E-Balla]

I see no reason why Indiana would have to be balanced after getting one of the top 5 offensive players in the league though. They could run the offense like NY did with Amare playing and have Melo as the primary option, West as the second scorer the same way he already was, and Hibbert was 45% this season so I'm not sure why you would want to give him the ball. Hill would definetly translate well to playing next to Melo and I think Stevenson could pull off a Shump impression (only attack mismatches, and in transition, ocassionally the PNR). The is Carmelo and not George so taking a high percentage of the possessions (especially when with that super high usage he was still more efficient than EVERY SINGLE PACERS PLAYER) would do nothing but help this team even if he's taking more than 18 shots a game (actually the more shots the merrier).

And defensively the Knicks fell off this year because for most of the year the Knicks only had one real big man active. On average NY bigmen played 32.8 games this year and Tyson was the only big over 700 minutes. Real bigs combined for 21% of NY's minutes (remember that number is doubled for your average team).

Combine that with the fact that Woody wanted an offensive oriented team and it makes sense that the Knicks fell off this season. They showed they could easily be great defensively in the playoffs.

[Nuntius]

I see no reason why Indiana would have to be balanced after getting one of the top 5 offensive players in the league though. They could run the offense like NY did with Amare playing and have Melo as the primary option, West as the second scorer the same way he already was, and Hibbert was 45% this season so I'm not sure why you would want to give him the ball. Hill would definetly translate well to playing next to Melo and I think Stevenson could pull off a Shump impression (only attack mismatches, and in transition, ocassionally the PNR). The is Carmelo and not George so taking a high percentage of the possessions (especially when with that super high usage he was still more efficient than EVERY SINGLE PACERS PLAYER) would do nothing but help this team even if he's taking more than 18 shots a game (actually the more shots the merrier).

Because we're still talking about Melo. We're not talking about Durant or LeBron. We're not talking about a super efficient offensive player. We're not talking about a player that is at around 60 TS%.

Heck, we're not even talking about a player at 58 TS%. Melo had a 56 TS% this season which is a bit lower than the career average of Danny Granger. And since we went to a balanced attack with Granger we would do the same with Melo.

It's quite simple, actually. If a player isn't super efficient like Durant, LeBron or Harden then it's not worth it for that player to have the lion's share of FGA. A balanced attack is more effective.

And defensively the Knicks fell off this year because for most of the year the Knicks only had one real big man active. On average NY bigmen played 32.8 games this year and Tyson was the only big over 700 minutes. Real bigs combined for 21% of NY's minutes (remember that number is doubled for your average team).

Combine that with the fact that Woody wanted an offensive oriented team and it makes sense that the Knicks fell off this season. They showed they could easily be great defensively in the playoffs.

I'm well aware why New York fell off defensively this year. Shumpert was injured for a large part of the season and he is your most important defender.

But here's another problem with Melo here. Melo is not a good perimeter defender. He can only defend in the post. He wouldn't work on our defensive system because he is similar defensively with David West. We need Paul George because he is a lock-down perimeter defender. Melo cannot provide that and hence our D would fall off a lot.

[E-Balla]

Because we're still talking about Melo. We're not talking about Durant or LeBron. We're not talking about a super efficient offensive player. We're not talking about a player that is at around 60 TS%.

Heck, we're not even talking about a player at 58 TS%. Melo had a 56 TS% this season which is a bit lower than the career average of Danny Granger. And since we went to a balanced attack with Granger we would do the same with Melo.

It's quite simple, actually. If a player isn't super efficient like Durant, LeBron or Harden then it's not worth it for that player to have the lion's share of FGA. A balanced attack is more effective.

This mindset is why I find myself defending Kobe, Melo, and other players I were never particularly fond of until recently. I will say it again...
Carmelo Anthony with his league leading 35 USG% was still more efficient than EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the Pacers!
Why not give him 35% of the possessions if that 35% is going to score 1.12 times per possession while the old team was stuck under 1.05 ppp.

And how does giving him the ball work for NY? The third best offense while the second and third option are scoring at 52 and 50 TS? Sometimes you need to look at effectiveness and reason. If Melo is AI, Indy is the 01 Sixers. As inefficient as AI was every number says he helped the Sixers tremendously on offense because they all got better looks.


And Indy would still be a top 5 defense with Melo. Your right in that he isn't good at guarding the perimeter but he's not that bad. The reason NY wants him guarding the post is that he's one of the best post defenders in the league. The team still has other good man defenders and Melo would look a lot better if he just had to funnel players toward Hibbert.

[Nuntius]

This mindset is why I find myself defending Kobe, Melo, and other players I were never particularly fond of until recently. I will say it again...
Carmelo Anthony with his league leading 35 USG% was still more efficient than EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the Pacers!
Why not give him 35% of the possessions if that 35% is going to score 1.12 times per possession while the old team was stuck under 1.05 ppp.

Because Indiana's and New York's offense were not the same!

It's not that hard to understand, mate. Indiana threw the ball to its bigs. Indiana played inside-outside.

New York played through its perimeter. They shot tons of 3s. They played outside-inside.

It's not the same offensive system. It's simple as that.

And how does giving him the ball work for NY? The third best offense while the second and third option are scoring at 52 and 50 TS? Sometimes you need to look at effectiveness and reason. If Melo is AI, Indy is the 01 Sixers. As inefficient as AI was every number says he helped the Sixers tremendously on offense because they all got better looks.

Don't compare Melo and AI. They are entirely different players.

Melo is more efficient than AI. He has a career 54.5% TS while AI is at 51.8%.

But there another difference as well. AI had a career 28.8% Assist Rate. Melo is only at 15.8%.

AI was inefficient but he was able to get his teammates some great looks. Melo cannot do that as well as AI did.

Hence, the two players are not comparable.

And Indy would still be a top 5 defense with Melo. Your right in that he isn't good at guarding the perimeter but he's not that bad. The reason NY wants him guarding the post is that he's one of the best post defenders in the league. The team still has other good man defenders and Melo would look a lot better if he just had to funnel players toward Hibbert.

George's task isn't to "just funnel players toward Hibbert". He is doing a lot more than that.

George is tasked to guard the opposition's best offensive player. He will guard LeBron, he will guard Melo, he will guard Josh Smith, he will guard Kobe, he will guard Monta Ellis, he will guard Durant, he will guard Harden. Heck, Paul George defended Derrick Rose in 2010.

Can Melo do that? No, he can't.

[MeloMIracle]

I see no reason why Indiana would have to be balanced after getting one of the top 5 offensive players in the league though. They could run the offense like NY did with Amare playing and have Melo as the primary option, West as the second scorer the same way he already was, and Hibbert was 45% this season so I'm not sure why you would want to give him the ball. Hill would definetly translate well to playing next to Melo and I think Stevenson could pull off a Shump impression (only attack mismatches, and in transition, ocassionally the PNR). The is Carmelo and not George so taking a high percentage of the possessions (especially when with that super high usage he was still more efficient than EVERY SINGLE PACERS PLAYER) would do nothing but help this team even if he's taking more than 18 shots a game (actually the more shots the merrier).

Because we're still talking about Melo. We're not talking about Durant or LeBron. We're not talking about a super efficient offensive player. We're not talking about a player that is at around 60 TS%.

Heck, we're not even talking about a player at 58 TS%. Melo had a 56 TS% this season which is a bit lower than the career average of Danny Granger. And since we went to a balanced attack with Granger we would do the same with Melo.

It's quite simple, actually. If a player isn't super efficient like Durant, LeBron or Harden then it's not worth it for that player to have the lion's share of FGA. A balanced attack is more effective.

And defensively the Knicks fell off this year because for most of the year the Knicks only had one real big man active. On average NY bigmen played 32.8 games this year and Tyson was the only big over 700 minutes. Real bigs combined for 21% of NY's minutes (remember that number is doubled for your average team).

Combine that with the fact that Woody wanted an offensive oriented team and it makes sense that the Knicks fell off this season. They showed they could easily be great defensively in the playoffs.

I'm well aware why New York fell off defensively this year. Shumpert was injured for a large part of the season and he is your most important defender.

But here's another problem with Melo here. Melo is not a good perimeter defender. He can only defend in the post. He wouldn't work on our defensive system because he is similar defensively with David West. We need Paul George because he is a lock-down perimeter defender. Melo cannot provide that and hence our D would fall off a lot.

Im confused, Melo shot a better percentage than the Knicks in the postseason and in the regular season. He is also shot better than the entire Pacer team in the regular season, so why should he not shoot a larger percentage of the shots if he went there? His efficiency would only improve going to Indy.

[E-Balla]

It's not that hard to understand, mate. Indiana threw the ball to its bigs. Indiana played inside-outside.

New York played through its perimeter. They shot tons of 3s. They played outside-inside.

It's not the same offensive system. It's simple as that.

That offense led them to the 20th ranked offense.worse than any offense Melo's ever been a part of. The just give it to Melo strategy would be more efficient than what they're doing. Your plugging Melo into PG's role and saying he'll suck but what about looking at the team now, looking at Melo now, looking at the Knicks without Melo, and coming to a conclusion of how Vogel will change the offense to fit the talent. Even if Melo's efficiency drops he's never been this healthy in a year and posted a 105 or lower ORTG since his second season.

And again no one is saying Melo can do what George can do or that he will. He wouldnt make a number one defensive team fall out the top 5 though. Also Melo defends the best forward NY is playing. He doesn't guard Gs but you can't knock a guy for not guarding out of position especially when theres only 2 SGs worth guarding in the league.

[Nuntius]

Im confused, Melo shot a better percentage than the Knicks in the postseason and in the regular season. He is also shot better than the entire Pacer team in the regular season, so why should he not shoot a larger percentage of the shots if he went there? His efficiency would only improve going to Indy.

Because he isn't as efficient as Durant, LeBron and Harden.

Unless you have an amazingly efficient scorer then it's better to spread out the shot attempts.