Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VI

[Zonkerbl]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

[tontoz]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

Zeller's lack of length/physicality are certainly legit concerns.

[Dark Faze]

I wonder if we can get Houstons second by taking on Robinson. He's a strong rebounder and when he had better defensive options around him in Houston (mainly Asik) he posted a DRTG of 101. His PER 36 rebounding numbers are 11.2 which is really impressive.

His offensive has been shaky...he seems like he has problems creating but to be fair he played with Sac who doesn't have a creator and Houston where Harden pretty much dominates the ball.

We'd then have three seconds and guys like Singleton to work with in trade scenarios or just picking guys. Maybe move up to get in a position to grab Withey.

Would love a frontcourt of Robinson/Withey. Move Seraphin and Singleton for a good backup point.

Wall/Siva? Kabongo?
Beal/Webster
Porter/Ariza
Nene/Robinson
Okafor/Withey

yes please

[tontoz]

I wonder if we can get Houstons second by taking on Robinson. He's a strong rebounder and when he had better defensive options around him in Houston (mainly Asik) he posted a DRTG of 101. His PER 36 rebounding numbers are 11.2 which is really impressive.

His offensive has been shaky...he seems like he has problems creating but to be fair he played with Sac who doesn't have a creator and Houston where Harden pretty much dominates the ball.

We'd then have three seconds and guys like Singleton to work with in trade scenarios or just picking guys. Maybe move up to get in a position to grab Withey.

Would love a frontcourt of Robinson/Withey. Move Seraphin and Singleton for a good backup point.

Wall/Siva? Kabongo?
Beal/Webster
Porter/Ariza
Nene/Robinson
Okafor/Withey

yes please

Houston's motivation for trading him is to shed his salary. Since we are over the cap we are not a viable trade partner.

Plus EG has already said he doens't want 3 rookies on the roster so i doubt he wants another 2nd round pick.

[nate33]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

Meh, that's probably just intentional disinformation from a team that actually wants him.

[Ruzious]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

Zeller's lack of length/physicality are certainly legit concerns.

I don't get the lack of physicality comments. He played a physical style for 2 years at Indiana. He didn't shy away from contact, and while he may not look like a body builder, I don't see strength or physicality being a real negative for him - considering where he is now at his age.

[sfam]

If we're really letting ourselves dream big, what if he's the next Kevin Love?

edit: he = Zeller

Chicks dig the long ball. If Zeller can rock the 3, he really shoukd jump up the board.

[sfam]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

Zeller's lack of length/physicality are certainly legit concerns.

I don't get the lack of physicality comments. He played a physical style for 2 years at Indiana. He didn't shy away from contact, and while he may not look like a body builder, I don't see strength or physicality being a real negative for him - considering where he is now at his age.

the problem is Zeller kind of looks like a doofus, so its hard to think of him as an athletic, tough guy.

[montestewart]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

Well, he is 6'7". Wait, we're talking about Bennett, right?

[nuposse04]

I have no problem at all picking Zeller at 3. Combine says he has the physical tools to be productive, YODA says he's got an established history of using those tools to be productive, and he can shoot out to the NBA 3 line. So the only knock on him is his competitive fire? We're willing to give Bennett a pass for being passive on defense but not willing to take a chance on Zeller for a similar mental issue? Why?

If he's the BPA at 3, take him.

The big knocks on him are his weak standing reach and his..... weakness. He doesn't take contact well.

However if he shows range on his shot and the ability to score facing up off the dribble i think he is certainly a legit option. Having a 4 that can shoot would make Wall so much more effective.

Hm. You know, Cody may only have a 8'10" standing reach, but he also has a no step vert of 35.5", giving him the third highest standing no step vert and third highest no step vert reach in this year's draft. His max vert reach of 11'11.5" is nothing to sneeze at either.

he doesn't play as explosively as his scores should dictate. Kudos to him for having a great no step vertical, but I still don't believe he has the power down low to explode over NBA talent defenders, let alone rim protecting centers.

I mean hell he's pretty damn close to Jason Smith athletically speaking. I'm not saying they'll have similar career arcs but he doesn't have very good core strength to utilize his vertical jumping unless he is completely open.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jason-Smith-369/

He's going to be available in the 5-7 range. If he is our guy, trade down, no point in wasting higher value on him then need be.

If he can indeed hit outside shots, I see a slightly poor man's version of the Heat's Bosh being a realistic scenario. Will be great in pick and pop sets.

[Ruzious]

Jason Smith is actually a player I'd be interested in acquiring for cheap. He has pretty decent stats the last 2 seasons. He had a huge turnovers problem in college, but that seems to have calmed down - probably because he's a much lower usage player in the NBA.

[nuposse04]

^I don't think Smith is a bad player either actually, I just think people need to curtail expectations. I think Zeller can be good, but I don't think he can be like...Bosh/LMA/Dirk/Z-Bo/etc.. There is a staunch difference between Great PFs and good ones. I mean he'd get eaten alive by low post guys like West and Z-Bo, but luckly, they're on the other side of 30 and will be out of the league sooner than later. Factors like that may make Zeller more useful going forward unless elite post play makes a comeback (which I think it might as it proves to be an effective way to beat the gimmicky nature of Miami's Small ball).

Still I'm surprised after putting decent stats in college and the athletic scores he had, smith never became better then he is. Although he's still prolly better then everyone on our bench sans Seraphin/healthy booker.

[Zonkerbl]

^I don't think Smith is a bad player either actually, I just think people need to curtail expectations. I think Zeller can be good, but I don't think he can be like...Bosh/LMA/Dirk/Z-Bo/etc.. There is a staunch difference between Great PFs and good ones. I mean he'd get eaten alive by low post guys like West and Z-Bo, but luckly, they're on the other side of 30 and will be out of the league sooner than later. Factors like that may make Zeller more useful going forward unless elite post play makes a comeback (which I think it might as it proves to be an effective way to beat the gimmicky nature of Miami's Small ball).

Still I'm surprised after putting decent stats in college and the athletic scores he had, smith never became better then he is. Although he's still prolly better then everyone on our bench sans Seraphin/healthy booker.

Bosh? I think the question is, is he better than Porter. Or is Bosh available?

[stevemcqueen1]

Hm. You know, Cody may only have a 8'10" standing reach, but he also has a no step vert of 35.5", giving him the third highest standing no step vert and third highest no step vert reach in this year's draft. His max vert reach of 11'11.5" is nothing to sneeze at either.

I was just stating what the big knocks on him were. I don't remember people making a big deal about his "competitive fire".

If he continues to shoot well i would certainly be open to drafting him. College teams made him the focus of their defense. It will be a different story in the pros.

Maybe I'm misremembering.

Just not quite getting why no one wants him. Dude is going to surprise people. Can we please be the ones doing the surprising?

I feel the same way. Nobody wants him because he's a bit of an oddball, skinny, athletic white American center with legit NBA potential.

I think there is very little chance Zeller ends up being bad. He's just too clean. I've got him third on my board behind Noel and Porter. I'd take him at three if those two are gone.

[sfam]

They knew someone, had a family connection, or got their entry by being former players--popularity got them jobs and keeps them being hired, fired, and reemployed.

There are people who can do much better but who will forever be on the outside looking in.

I don't know how much I believe that. I gotta think that merit plays a far larger role than family connections. The only thing I see that is a clear problem from a merit standpoint is the continually high percentage of white hires, both with coaches and management. You gotta think some of the young, hot African American minds are getting backseated far more than they should.

I need to give my opinions better perspective. I was thinking about EG and coaching retreads. I was thinking of family hires. Unseld, Wittman, Saunders, Lynam, Nelson etc. have familial hires. I guess it's not very different from a family of doctors,lawyers, pharmacists, military service members, etc. There are reasons people follow in a parent or siblings' footstep. Some and maybe even most have a passion for what they do and are at least competent. However, there is the other extreme and they are on the payroll like Billy Hunter's famtliy. Greed, nepotism, and possibly some real heinous stuff goes on IMO.

sfam, I don't think minority hiring was historically a problem. Bill Russell coached in the 60s. Guys like Al Attles and Wayne Embry were in management 40 years ago Bob Johnson formerly and MJ own and I think more minority ownership would be welcomed. I may be naive but I think owners are by and large white or foreign. Their most trusted cohorts are the ones hired. Thus, as high as most minorities go is coaching.

I think there are precious few opportunities to break through in the NBA. Spoelstra was a good college PG who worked for years in Miami--but has dad is a well known coach.

Folks who play GM on the Internet may have their ideas used elsewhere, but in merit they will FOREVER be outsiders.

This is the problem I was referring to. We should be well past the time where those who look like the owners are the ones hired. The NBA is ahead of the other top sports, but clearly there is room for improvement. We as a country have elected a two term African American president - in a league where over 80% of the players are people of color, they should be having far more than 10% of the Presidents and GMs as people of color. But more than that, I think at this point you can make a case that the most talented people waiting in the wings aren't white. The white folks have been picked clean for years for talent - its The Masai Ujiris of the world that are the best and brightest.

If someone of color has gotten into the front office, given the trusted cohort problem you mention, chances are those folks are absolute cream of the crop. If I were an owner and wanted a championship, I'd be playing the odds at this point when I went searching for the best new genius on the block.

[WizarDynasty]

From Bullets Forever:
"Can't defend anyone, plays like he's 6'7", not a great rebounder."

Zeller's lack of length/physicality are certainly legit concerns.

I don't get the lack of physicality comments. He played a physical style for 2 years at Indiana. He didn't shy away from contact, and while he may not look like a body builder, I don't see strength or physicality being a real negative for him - considering where he is now at his age.

zeller aint explosive. He doesn't have a quick first step from what i have heard maybe i am wrong.

He doesn't have explosiveness to be a shotblocker otherwise his stats would have suggested it. He wasn't elite at the basics of what a wizard bigman should be eilte in. Among amateurs in college basketball, Zeller should have been an elite rebounder and shotblocker.
the fact is he wasn't.
Since Zeller isn't explosive, he must absolutley have elite body control with the basketball...him and the basketball should be one. His handles should allow him to slither past defenders. His body control in air with the basketball should be superb meaning he should be able to move the ball in the air to avoid getting his shotblock...the ability to move the ball around midair and score. Superior body control with the basketball. I haven't watched zeller enough to see if he does.
And finally he Must absolutely must demonstrate the consistent ability to score through contact with a defender between him and the basket consistently. Again, i haven't watched enough of zeller.

I do know from all reports that he has poor lower body strength which immediately eliminates him from having wizard bigman. People on the board love to say that a big will develop lower body strength after he gets in the nba. It won't happen people. I am tired of hearing the term ADEQUATE.
ADEQUATE is why the wizards/bullets have been bottom dwellers for last 20 years.

Advanced skills never Make up for not Being elite at the BASICS.
Advanced skills only matter have a prospects has shown consistent ability to be elite at the basics of his position. I don't care that a player his an outstanding jumpshooting powerforward if he wasn't an elite rebounding in college.
A must come before B. YOu can't give a pass for A because B is advanced. Zeller not being elite at the basics of a bigman means he isn't Wizard Material. He is not going to magically turn into elite at the basics in the NBA. If we need him to come off the bench as a speciality player, that's what the 2nd round is meant for, not lottery picks.

[Deeptu McPullup]

zeller aint explosive. He doesn't have a quick first step from what i have heard maybe i am wrong.

He has a fantastic first step for a 7 footer.

Hm. You know, Cody may only have a 8'10" standing reach, but he also has a no step vert of 35.5", giving him the third highest standing no step vert and third highest no step vert reach in this year's draft. His max vert reach of 11'11.5" is nothing to sneeze at either.

I was just stating what the big knocks on him were. I don't remember people making a big deal about his "competitive fire".

If he continues to shoot well i would certainly be open to drafting him. College teams made him the focus of their defense. It will be a different story in the pros.

Agreed. I've never heard anyone complain about his competitiveness or any sort of mental issues other than maybe "shies away from contact".

The main complaint is that he gets mauled in assorted situations, isn't a great defensive rebounder, sometimes struggles in the post against length and doesn't protect the rim well. Some of that would be offset to a degree with more weight.

I want to be careful about getting excited on the long ball shooting in the workouts, but he was compelling long before that was reported.

He's probably my first choice in a trade down. For whatever reason, I have a feeling that Sacramento or Detroit take him if he's there. Detroit has bigs, but they could use a purer power forward who can space things (some speculation they might go Triangle Offense too). They have loads of cap space to address the perimeter with too.

Doubt he gets to 9.

[sfam]

zeller aint explosive. He doesn't have a quick first step from what i have heard maybe i am wrong.

He has a fantastic first step for a 7 footer.

Zeller is an elite athlete for a 7 footer. The combine makes this clear. I agree Zeller has a great first step. He doesn't have the greatest rebounding instincts though, but perhaps he can improve on this.

[Ruzious]

Regarding Zeller's rewbounding, again while it's not great, I wouldn't call it a weakness. For frame of reference, his 2 years at Indy were almost the same as Greg Monroe's at G-town. Per 40 pace adjusted, he averaged 0.2 more as a freshman and 0.4 less as a sophomore. I don't think anyone focuses on rebounding being a weakness for Monroe.

[WizarDynasty]

Cody Zeller showed no improvment in his rebounding number from freshman to sophmore. Season. Greg Monroe showed tremendous improvment. Stats say that Zeller has maxed out and actually regressed in areas.
Zeller just aint wizard material.

He didn't show consistent ability to finish through contact and he isn't an explosive athlete.
I think he has above average body control with the basketball but he doesn't have the strength on athelticism to finish Consistently through contact.
What makes him fail the 4th test that's special for bigmen is that he doesn't have above average lower body strength which is the main reason why he isn't an above average at the basic of defensive rebounding.
If Zeller where explosive he could make up for his lack of lower body strength by being a quicker more explosive jumper than the competitioon. He isn't.
He is a slow jumper meaning he needs to charge before he explodes. If you read the notes at the combine, they talk about how zeller had to really gather himself really low before he jumped. Explosiveness how quickly can you jump not overall power.
No one squats really low to ground before they jump for a rebound, you are pushing and shoving and then bang you explode as soon as the ball pops off the rim. the player who explodes the highest and quickest and who is able push body out the way "only using his lower body" is the one who wins.
Zeller is not Wizard material. He is a decent bench player in the booker mode but not Leonsis Era wizard material. Greg Monroe barely would make the cut. he showed in college that he could consistenly finish through contact. He wasn't explosive. He showed great body control with the basketball like Zeller that's what both have in common. Monroe meets 2 out of three. Zeller only 1 out of three.
But also Monroe had superior lowerbody strength...the critical ingredient that eliminates zeller from wizard material. And no Zeller is not going to gain superior lower body strength when he gets to the nba. I could care less about a bigman who is ADEQUATE at the basics.Adequate at the basics is what has kept the Wizards an NBA bottom dweller for nearly 2 decades.
Get a player who is above average at the basics and then weed out the from this pool, the ones with the most advanced skills, not the other way around.