Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VI

[stevemcqueen1]

Now I get it, yes, I think the board overreacted a bit to the top 5, max contract player thing, ut honestly Wall had never played up to that level in his career when he said that. Not even close, and even though he definitely had all the excuses and explanations I listed, and mentioned repeatedly in 2011 and 2012, he still hadn't come close to earning such monetary respect. It made it all the more ironic that immediately following the ludicrous statement, he played exactly like a max contract, top 5 PG. And btw, I will own that I posted after hearing the contract quote, that I'd immediately look into dealing him before that contract was due if we could get the right offer, as it was insane to invest that much money in him a that time (now, not so much). We've seen too many mega contracts blow up in the teams face, particularly in salary cap leagues.

As far as I remember, it was those two statements in relatively rapid succession that brought out an avalanche of hand wringing. Far from EG beating out the board, which most certainly did not contain a "trade John Wall now" majority, EG likely saw the same thing that many fans here were seeing, a player with the confidence (arrogance, insecurity, whatever) to term himself a top-5 PG meriting a max contract, who so far had not shown that he was worth it. If EG wasn't starting to make contingency plans to either trade Wall or try and secure him for substantially less than the max, he was living in a dream world. And perhaps he was living in a dream world.

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

It could have been that Ernie knows a lot more about Wall than we do and knew how good he is and how dominant he could be.

My opinion is that, despite what a lot of people thought at the time, trading Wall was NEVER a realistic option and was never even considered by the FO. It would have meant totally starting the rebuild over. That was something that was just never going to happen. We were married to Wall the day we picked him.

And whatever the reasons people had for wanting to try and trade Wall, no matter how justifiable they seem then and now, the fact is a lot of the fan base was ready to cut bait on him before he really started to realize his potential. That doesn't really speak well for our team building chops. And most of it came from him having a big slump in February.

The fan base has limited information to work with so we overreact to the recent events on the court. It's not just Wizards fans either, I think every fan base for every team does the same.

I'm not trying to put myself above anyone either because I am just as limited in the info I've got access too. I probably would have done a terrible job if I'd have been in charge. Confession time: I was fine with Ves and Singleton at the time and thought we had a great draft considering how bad the class was and where we picked. I wanted Valanciunas or Kanter at 6, they went beforehand, so I was fine with Vesely because I thought he was a BPA pick. I remember liking Leonard but specifically not wanting him at 6 because I thought he would have been a reach at the time. I wanted Klay Thompson or Singleton specifically with the second pick, or maybe Marshon Brooks. I liked Faried and would have been fine with him too, but I only saw the one tourney game of him and I had no clue he was going to be so good. I thought Singleton was going to be our answer to defending Carmelo and LeBron down the road and thought he was a great pick. I had never seen Ves play, only caught youtube highlights, and I'd only seen Singleton play one game against VT. I had miniscule information to go on with them and everything I knew about them was basically draftnik talk.

Last year I liked Beal, saw him play a couple times, and was probably a little ahead of the curve on identifying him as a top prospect and a better player than Rivers and Lamb. A lot of people liked those guys at the time. A lot of people still liked Lamb and thought he should have been the pick either at 3 or in a trade down into the season. Smart people I respect too. A lot of people didn't really see it with Beal and he wasn't a no brainer despite what people think now. Again, smart people. And a lot of people were ready to proclaim Waiters the better prospect after opening night in Cleveland. Not necessarily on this board, just within the fan base. The fan base is just very reactionary.

BTW, another confession: I loved TRob, thought he was a total stud, and probably would have picked him over Beal gun to my head.

Though I want to give myself some credit and say Beal was my second choice and the pick felt right the moment after we made it. I've been a Beal man since then. I was very outspoken that I would not have traded Beal for Harden and I got killed for that. Not here, I've kept that opinion to myself on here, but on another forum I post in.

Anyway, my point is these decisions are extremely hard to make in real time and we fans have so little information to go on. I know I personally couldn't do a better job than Ernie, and I say that knowing Ernie is not a very good GM. Hell, I've agreed with his individual personnel decisions more often than not. The only one I hated at the time was the Shard for Okariza trade and that one actually seems great in hindsight.

EDIT: wanted to point out I hated the 2009 Miller/Foye trade too, I think everyone knew that trade was turrible. I was talking about the EG moves in the Leonsis era.

[stevemcqueen1]

Hypothetical question:

A lot of people here clearly would be happy if we drafted Porter with the 3rd pick, myself included. That would mean we'd have added our wings for the future in the last 2 drafts, with Beal and Porter. But, two players that remind me of both of those guys are McLemore and Kidd-Gilchrist, respectively. So, hypothetically, which duo would you prefer? Beal/Porter or McLemore/MKG?

I loved MKG last year, but I would have taken Beal over him. In a vacuum, I'd also strongly consider taking Porter over McLemore too. For the Wizards, with Wall and Beal already, I would definitely take Porter over McLemore if both are sitting there at 3.

So I definitely like Beal + Porter over MKG + McLemore. I think Beal is better than McLemore flat out and I think Beal is the best SG under 23 in the NBA and will be even after this good crop of 2s in this draft come into the league. Porter probably isn't as good as MKG was, but he's a better scorer for sure and is a better fit with Wall IMO. Wall doesn't need to be playing with a SF that can't shoot.

As an aside, I also like Wall + Beal over Irving + Waiters.

[hands11]

The board would have also traded John Wall for diddly squat. Kyle Lowry and a mid lotto pick in a bad draft class.

No, no, no. There's one poster here that I know of that would have done that, but most of us would never have been so insane. I always had Wall #1 in that class, w/Cousins and Favors a close 2nd (Cousins actually might have been a better prospect, but his hideous mental make up made him seem a lock to be a guy who'd play on five or six teams in his career because he'd be constantly wearing out his welcome, he's the penultimate one contract guy, while Favors offered a tantalizing combo of defense, rebounding and athleticism), but still at best 2nd. There certainly were people that were worried about Wall, me among them (I posted the grantland write up on him 18 months ago), but I never felt, and I don't think most felt, he'd ever ben given the proper situation. His entire career w/the Boulez, in my view, and as I argued repeatedly last year and previous to that, was basically him being saddled with dumb (Young), dumber (McGee), and dumbest (Baltche), and the biggest collection of bricklayers and hacks the NBA had ever seen assembled this side of the Bobcats throughout his first two seasons.

Mea culpas when due, I would have entertained Greg Monroe trades up until January.

Hell, I'd pull the trigger on #3 + Nene + filler for Monroe + 8 trades right now. I really liked Monroe going into the draft and even moreso now.

I would love Monroe on the team. But he only make 4M. Were you getting the difference ?

[stevemcqueen1]

Also, I remember talking to a lot of Wizards fans who wanted Evan Turner in 2010. Lots of people weren't sold on Wall. He wasn't necessarily a no-brainer at the time. Lot of talk of DeMarcus Cousins going first overall too if it weren't for the maturity issues.

If I had been making the picks from 2009 to today, I'd have a mess of a roster. Rubio and Wall. TRob and Bismack Biyombo. And probably still Singleton and maybe Josh Selby and Quincy Miller thrown in there somewhere. Ugh.

[AFM]

I too wanted Selby and Miller. I still think Selby can ball. Don't know why he's in the D league.

[deneem4]

if we get bennet I wonder, how he'll mix with dmc nxt yr...I think we should get porter, even though a front court of cousins and bennet would be offensively superior to all others except marc and zach

[sfam]

Now I get it, yes, I think the board overreacted a bit to the top 5, max contract player thing, ut honestly Wall had never played up to that level in his career when he said that. Not even close, and even though he definitely had all the excuses and explanations I listed, and mentioned repeatedly in 2011 and 2012, he still hadn't come close to earning such monetary respect. It made it all the more ironic that immediately following the ludicrous statement, he played exactly like a max contract, top 5 PG. And btw, I will own that I posted after hearing the contract quote, that I'd immediately look into dealing him before that contract was due if we could get the right offer, as it was insane to invest that much money in him a that time (now, not so much). We've seen too many mega contracts blow up in the teams face, particularly in salary cap leagues.

As far as I remember, it was those two statements in relatively rapid succession that brought out an avalanche of hand wringing. Far from EG beating out the board, which most certainly did not contain a "trade John Wall now" majority, EG likely saw the same thing that many fans here were seeing, a player with the confidence (arrogance, insecurity, whatever) to term himself a top-5 PG meriting a max contract, who so far had not shown that he was worth it. If EG wasn't starting to make contingency plans to either trade Wall or try and secure him for substantially less than the max, he was living in a dream world. And perhaps he was living in a dream world.

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

Try the trade thread. I think you'll find bunches of mediocre Wall trades there. But in any event, all's well that ends well. We certainly ALL wanted Wall to improve. As CCJ says, it was a rather extraordinary jump, which even the most ardent Wall fans wouldn't have predicted then. I was hoping it would happen in the offseason, for instance.

[The Consiglieri]

The board would have also traded John Wall for diddly squat. Kyle Lowry and a mid lotto pick in a bad draft class.

No, no, no. There's one poster here that I know of that would have done that, but most of us would never have been so insane. I always had Wall #1 in that class, w/Cousins and Favors a close 2nd (Cousins actually might have been a better prospect, but his hideous mental make up made him seem a lock to be a guy who'd play on five or six teams in his career because he'd be constantly wearing out his welcome, he's the penultimate one contract guy, while Favors offered a tantalizing combo of defense, rebounding and athleticism), but still at best 2nd. There certainly were people that were worried about Wall, me among them (I posted the grantland write up on him 18 months ago), but I never felt, and I don't think most felt, he'd ever ben given the proper situation. His entire career w/the Boulez, in my view, and as I argued repeatedly last year and previous to that, was basically him being saddled with dumb (Young), dumber (McGee), and dumbest (Baltche), and the biggest collection of bricklayers and hacks the NBA had ever seen assembled this side of the Bobcats throughout his first two seasons.

Mea culpas when due, I would have entertained Greg Monroe trades up until January.

Hell, I'd pull the trigger on #3 + Nene + filler for Monroe + 8 trades right now. I really liked Monroe going into the draft and even moreso now.

Great job calling Monroe. He was super underrated in that draft. I missed on him and Hibbert to some extent (I had them rated, but never in a million years thought they'd be as good as they were).

[mhd]

If the Wiz wanted Zeller in this draft, then would my Rivers+Jason Smith for Ves+Singleton and a pick swap idea still be feasible? Pelicans move up for Porter, Bobcats take Bennett, Suns take Oladipo, and we get Zeller/Len with the 6th pick.

[sfam]

if we get bennet I wonder, how he'll mix with dmc nxt yr...I think we should get porter, even though a front court of cousins and bennet would be offensively superior to all others except marc and zach

I know people on this board seem to love dmc more than life itself, but for my part, I hope the Wizards never consider bringing the guy in. He's like the modern version of the Chevy Corvair converted to NBA player - "Unsafe on any team". The dude is a thermonuclear response waiting to happen.

[The Consiglieri]

Now I get it, yes, I think the board overreacted a bit to the top 5, max contract player thing, ut honestly Wall had never played up to that level in his career when he said that. Not even close, and even though he definitely had all the excuses and explanations I listed, and mentioned repeatedly in 2011 and 2012, he still hadn't come close to earning such monetary respect. It made it all the more ironic that immediately following the ludicrous statement, he played exactly like a max contract, top 5 PG. And btw, I will own that I posted after hearing the contract quote, that I'd immediately look into dealing him before that contract was due if we could get the right offer, as it was insane to invest that much money in him a that time (now, not so much). We've seen too many mega contracts blow up in the teams face, particularly in salary cap leagues.

As far as I remember, it was those two statements in relatively rapid succession that brought out an avalanche of hand wringing. Far from EG beating out the board, which most certainly did not contain a "trade John Wall now" majority, EG likely saw the same thing that many fans here were seeing, a player with the confidence (arrogance, insecurity, whatever) to term himself a top-5 PG meriting a max contract, who so far had not shown that he was worth it. If EG wasn't starting to make contingency plans to either trade Wall or try and secure him for substantially less than the max, he was living in a dream world. And perhaps he was living in a dream world.

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

I've never posted in either thread I think beyond posting the grantland article 18 months ago or so. I tend to stay out of those threads. I focus more on the game day, draft, and draft pick specific threads, so I would have missed the serious hand wringing at the time entirely.

[dobrojim]

Seeing Roy Hibbert dominate the Miami Heat I couldn't help but imagine Alex Len if he has Roy's work ethic and good health in the NBA.

I don't like Len at three because the Terps never made it to the NCAA tourney his two seasons, and he often didn't bring it. However, Len could do some great things in 5 years if he sticks with it and he stays healthy. The foot surgery and memories of Zydrunas Ilgauskas' years scares me with Len.

It might backfire picking Zeller over Len because unlike with Zeller, there is no way to project with any certainty what big Alex will do. I tend to expect he is not a guy with a chip like Hibbert. I could be real wrong.

It's funny but many of the criticisms that have been heaped on Alex were some of the same ones directed toward Roy when he came out of G'Town.

Except Len's a much better athlete.

Just something to consider

Do you recall anyone saying they didn't want Hibbert in that draft? The Wizards were desperate for a center if I remember correctly, Hibbert was who I hoped for---then the Raptors pulled that stunt. Hibbert looked liked he could be dominant, he was just slow as hell.

I don't think it's the least bit inaccurate to suggest that the Wizards would
have taken Hibbert rather than jaVale if we had switched picks with IND that year.
Hibbert had/has tremendous size and G'town pedigree. 'nuf said.

[The Consiglieri]

I would be in absolute heaven under that scenario so long as Noel didn't have an Oden/Walton like injury history in front of him.

More than likely to happen. They can get Bynum/Jefferson/Hickson etc who can be a big upgrade which focuses them to get Porter. Magic also in my eyes picks the best healthiest prospect in McleMore which leaves us Noel .

Question is what happens if Mclemore isn't picked up? should we consider him as a SF?.

Too short. He'd have to be a 2, and he could be an amazing one, though some people worry about the Rush comparison. If he fulfills his upside, he'd be a worthy/oladipo type, the hell with it pick, where we just end up with three flat out studs to play a small ball lineup. And as others have argued, it does seem like the league is moving away from pre-fixe line ups so to speak. Focusing more on flexibility, and particular match ups, then a hard and fast connection to traditional line up structure.

[mhd]

if we get bennet I wonder, how he'll mix with dmc nxt yr...I think we should get porter, even though a front court of cousins and bennet would be offensively superior to all others except marc and zach

I know people on this board seem to love dmc more than life itself, but for my part, I hope the Wizards never consider bringing the guy in. He's like the modern version of the Chevy Corvair converted to NBA player - "Unsafe on any team". The dude is a thermonuclear response waiting to happen.

I think Cousins, in terms of raw talent, is a top 10 player in the NBA. He destroyed Blake Griffin in the last game of the season. He shows passion out there. He's been surrounded by utter crap in terms of coaching the ownership around him. That's why I think Tyreke Evans is also under-valued. He'd look great in a better situation.

[The Consiglieri]

Hypothetical question:

A lot of people here clearly would be happy if we drafted Porter with the 3rd pick, myself included. That would mean we'd have added our wings for the future in the last 2 drafts, with Beal and Porter. But, two players that remind me of both of those guys are McLemore and Kidd-Gilchrist, respectively. So, hypothetically, which duo would you prefer? Beal/Porter or McLemore/MKG?

McLemore/MKG. Both players have a higher ceiling than our players in that scenario. Not complaining about Beal though. Beal's the best player the Wiz have drafted since Rip Hamilton and Rasheed Wallace (I love Wall, but that involved no thought process, it was obvious).

[The Consiglieri]

Now I get it, yes, I think the board overreacted a bit to the top 5, max contract player thing, ut honestly Wall had never played up to that level in his career when he said that. Not even close, and even though he definitely had all the excuses and explanations I listed, and mentioned repeatedly in 2011 and 2012, he still hadn't come close to earning such monetary respect. It made it all the more ironic that immediately following the ludicrous statement, he played exactly like a max contract, top 5 PG. And btw, I will own that I posted after hearing the contract quote, that I'd immediately look into dealing him before that contract was due if we could get the right offer, as it was insane to invest that much money in him a that time (now, not so much). We've seen too many mega contracts blow up in the teams face, particularly in salary cap leagues.

As far as I remember, it was those two statements in relatively rapid succession that brought out an avalanche of hand wringing. Far from EG beating out the board, which most certainly did not contain a "trade John Wall now" majority, EG likely saw the same thing that many fans here were seeing, a player with the confidence (arrogance, insecurity, whatever) to term himself a top-5 PG meriting a max contract, who so far had not shown that he was worth it. If EG wasn't starting to make contingency plans to either trade Wall or try and secure him for substantially less than the max, he was living in a dream world. And perhaps he was living in a dream world.

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

It could have been that Ernie knows a lot more about Wall than we do and knew how good he is and how dominant he could be.

My opinion is that, despite what a lot of people thought at the time, trading Wall was NEVER a realistic option and was never even considered by the FO. It would have meant totally starting the rebuild over. That was something that was just never going to happen. We were married to Wall the day we picked him.

And whatever the reasons people had for wanting to try and trade Wall, no matter how justifiable they seem then and now, the fact is a lot of the fan base was ready to cut bait on him before he really started to realize his potential. That doesn't really speak well for our team building chops. And most of it came from him having a big slump in February.

The fan base has limited information to work with so we overreact to the recent events on the court. It's not just Wizards fans either, I think every fan base for every team does the same.

I'm not trying to put myself above anyone either because I am just as limited in the info I've got access too. I probably would have done a terrible job if I'd have been in charge. Confession time: I was fine with Ves and Singleton at the time and thought we had a great draft considering how bad the class was and where we picked. I wanted Valanciunas or Kanter at 6, they went beforehand, so I was fine with Vesely because I thought he was a BPA pick. I remember liking Leonard but specifically not wanting him at 6 because I thought he would have been a reach at the time. I wanted Klay Thompson or Singleton specifically with the second pick, or maybe Marshon Brooks. I liked Faried and would have been fine with him too, but I only saw the one tourney game of him and I had no clue he was going to be so good. I thought Singleton was going to be our answer to defending Carmelo and LeBron down the road and thought he was a great pick. I had never seen Ves play, only caught youtube highlights, and I'd only seen Singleton play one game against VT. I had miniscule information to go on with them and everything I knew about them was basically draftnik talk.

Last year I liked Beal, saw him play a couple times, and was probably a little ahead of the curve on identifying him as a top prospect and a better player than Rivers and Lamb. A lot of people liked those guys at the time. A lot of people still liked Lamb and thought he should have been the pick either at 3 or in a trade down into the season. Smart people I respect too. A lot of people didn't really see it with Beal and he wasn't a no brainer despite what people think now. Again, smart people. And a lot of people were ready to proclaim Waiters the better prospect after opening night in Cleveland. Not necessarily on this board, just within the fan base. The fan base is just very reactionary.

BTW, another confession: I loved TRob, thought he was a total stud, and probably would have picked him over Beal gun to my head.

Though I want to give myself some credit and say Beal was my second choice and the pick felt right the moment after we made it. I've been a Beal man since then. I was very outspoken that I would not have traded Beal for Harden and I got killed for that. Not here, I've kept that opinion to myself on here, but on another forum I post in.

Anyway, my point is these decisions are extremely hard to make in real time and we fans have so little information to go on. I know I personally couldn't do a better job than Ernie, and I say that knowing Ernie is not a very good GM. Hell, I've agreed with his individual personnel decisions more often than not. The only one I hated at the time was the Shard for Okariza trade and that one actually seems great in hindsight.

EDIT: wanted to point out I hated the 2009 Miller/Foye trade too, I think everyone knew that trade was turrible. I was talking about the EG moves in the Leonsis era.

Were you here back then? I can't remember you log on, were you somebody else? I remember in March, making posts about how Beal's shooting percentages improved incrementally every month, and substantially in feb and march as his confidence grew, and Donovan began to rely on him more. Other than one Debbie downer nightmare game where he missed a ton of three's, he was much better from behind the arc, and from 2 throughout feb and march, but a lot of posters kept trying to argue that the stats were what mattered and not his perfect form, and prior history as an outstanding jumper. Despite preferring MKG, and being interested in a trade down for Drummond, I really felt some people were obsessing over small sample sized stats from a freshman, felt the same exact way about Drummond, and this year I feel that way about Muhammad. If a guys entire history is positive, and he has one off season or half season as freshman, or in general, I tend to view his tumbling draft stock as a value, rather than a justified indictment, and historically guys like Paul Pierce, Caron Butler, and Drummond (and I should have seen that last year with Barnes) have backed up dumpster diving for value with those guys (and I still think PJIII could come through as well, though its definitely not there yet with him). This year Zeller, and Adams pre-combine, Muhammad and Tony Mitchell best represent that. Mitchell for now, is my best value selection of the draft, probably available if the mocks are right, somewhere between 14-25 slots lower than he was valued as recently as November.

[The Consiglieri]

Now I get it, yes, I think the board overreacted a bit to the top 5, max contract player thing, ut honestly Wall had never played up to that level in his career when he said that. Not even close, and even though he definitely had all the excuses and explanations I listed, and mentioned repeatedly in 2011 and 2012, he still hadn't come close to earning such monetary respect. It made it all the more ironic that immediately following the ludicrous statement, he played exactly like a max contract, top 5 PG. And btw, I will own that I posted after hearing the contract quote, that I'd immediately look into dealing him before that contract was due if we could get the right offer, as it was insane to invest that much money in him a that time (now, not so much). We've seen too many mega contracts blow up in the teams face, particularly in salary cap leagues.

As far as I remember, it was those two statements in relatively rapid succession that brought out an avalanche of hand wringing. Far from EG beating out the board, which most certainly did not contain a "trade John Wall now" majority, EG likely saw the same thing that many fans here were seeing, a player with the confidence (arrogance, insecurity, whatever) to term himself a top-5 PG meriting a max contract, who so far had not shown that he was worth it. If EG wasn't starting to make contingency plans to either trade Wall or try and secure him for substantially less than the max, he was living in a dream world. And perhaps he was living in a dream world.

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

It could have been that Ernie knows a lot more about Wall than we do and knew how good he is and how dominant he could be.

My opinion is that, despite what a lot of people thought at the time, trading Wall was NEVER a realistic option and was never even considered by the FO. It would have meant totally starting the rebuild over. That was something that was just never going to happen. We were married to Wall the day we picked him.

And whatever the reasons people had for wanting to try and trade Wall, no matter how justifiable they seem then and now, the fact is a lot of the fan base was ready to cut bait on him before he really started to realize his potential. That doesn't really speak well for our team building chops. And most of it came from him having a big slump in February.

The fan base has limited information to work with so we overreact to the recent events on the court. It's not just Wizards fans either, I think every fan base for every team does the same.

I'm not trying to put myself above anyone either because I am just as limited in the info I've got access too. I probably would have done a terrible job if I'd have been in charge. Confession time: I was fine with Ves and Singleton at the time and thought we had a great draft considering how bad the class was and where we picked. I wanted Valanciunas or Kanter at 6, they went beforehand, so I was fine with Vesely because I thought he was a BPA pick. I remember liking Leonard but specifically not wanting him at 6 because I thought he would have been a reach at the time. I wanted Klay Thompson or Singleton specifically with the second pick, or maybe Marshon Brooks. I liked Faried and would have been fine with him too, but I only saw the one tourney game of him and I had no clue he was going to be so good. I thought Singleton was going to be our answer to defending Carmelo and LeBron down the road and thought he was a great pick. I had never seen Ves play, only caught youtube highlights, and I'd only seen Singleton play one game against VT. I had miniscule information to go on with them and everything I knew about them was basically draftnik talk.

Last year I liked Beal, saw him play a couple times, and was probably a little ahead of the curve on identifying him as a top prospect and a better player than Rivers and Lamb. A lot of people liked those guys at the time. A lot of people still liked Lamb and thought he should have been the pick either at 3 or in a trade down into the season. Smart people I respect too. A lot of people didn't really see it with Beal and he wasn't a no brainer despite what people think now. Again, smart people. And a lot of people were ready to proclaim Waiters the better prospect after opening night in Cleveland. Not necessarily on this board, just within the fan base. The fan base is just very reactionary.

BTW, another confession: I loved TRob, thought he was a total stud, and probably would have picked him over Beal gun to my head.

Though I want to give myself some credit and say Beal was my second choice and the pick felt right the moment after we made it. I've been a Beal man since then. I was very outspoken that I would not have traded Beal for Harden and I got killed for that. Not here, I've kept that opinion to myself on here, but on another forum I post in.

Anyway, my point is these decisions are extremely hard to make in real time and we fans have so little information to go on. I know I personally couldn't do a better job than Ernie, and I say that knowing Ernie is not a very good GM. Hell, I've agreed with his individual personnel decisions more often than not. The only one I hated at the time was the Shard for Okariza trade and that one actually seems great in hindsight.

EDIT: wanted to point out I hated the 2009 Miller/Foye trade too, I think everyone knew that trade was turrible. I was talking about the EG moves in the Leonsis era.

Shockingly, at the time, there were a ton of people trying to justify it as a move to get us to the playoffs in a weak draft. That was bogus then and I said it, and obviously its even more bogus now.

The two twin tragedies is that after putting up with 25 years of misery, and nearly 30 years of no shot whatsoever at contending, rebuild V since 1988, suffered it's two worst set backs in '09 and '11 because of epic lottery screw jobs (max tumble in both lotteries if memory serves). If not for those screw jobs I honestly an sincerely believe we certainly wouldn't have done the hair brained '09 dumb arse deal, and might not have drafted Vesely (granted EG had a man crush on him, but would he have been so stupid as to take him over a Kantner or Valunciunas?).

[deneem4]

if we get bennet I wonder, how he'll mix with dmc nxt yr...I think we should get porter, even though a front court of cousins and bennet would be offensively superior to all others except marc and zach

I know people on this board seem to love dmc more than life itself, but for my part, I hope the Wizards never consider bringing the guy in. He's like the modern version of the Chevy Corvair converted to NBA player - "Unsafe on any team". The dude is a thermonuclear response waiting to happen.

all cousins need is a friend...he wont let john wall down, wall expects too much from him and he respect wall...itll bring the fun back to cousins playin basketball...cousins like Dwight right now, giv Dwight a cp3 or james harden he'll be a happy camper, same with cousins

[The Consiglieri]

Also, I remember talking to a lot of Wizards fans who wanted Evan Turner in 2010. Lots of people weren't sold on Wall. He wasn't necessarily a no-brainer at the time. Lot of talk of DeMarcus Cousins going first overall too if it weren't for the maturity issues.

If I had been making the picks from 2009 to today, I'd have a mess of a roster. Rubio and Wall. TRob and Bismack Biyombo. And probably still Singleton and maybe Josh Selby and Quincy Miller thrown in there somewhere. Ugh.

My roster would probably be:

'09: Curry
'10: Wall and Seraphin (I liked that pick, even if it went over 'like a fart in church' this season).
'11: Trade up for Valunciunas, or a Leonard trade down, then with Leonard covering the 2/3, I'd go Faried with CCJ yelling at me about the consequences if I didn't.
'12: Beal (I wanted MKG, and liked Drummond, but would have passed on Drummond for the same reason I passed on Cousins in '10).
'13: I'd take Bennett this year.

The only potential miss is probably '11, where I would have been flummoxed, the guys I had ranked highest were 1. Irving 2. Kantner 3 Valunciunas, then there was marianas style trench fall off, and I didn't know who I liked best. A trade down for Leonard sounded good at the time, but I also didn't mind vesely since I hadn't done any research and assumed he could actually shoot the ball. I had no idea we intended to draft a player who air balled free throws more frequently than I did in elementary school, so '11 is the one year where I might have screwed up as badly as EG, but even that year I was bound and determined that we trade up fo Kantner or Valunciunas, so its unlikely we would have gotten a bust as big as we did.

There was a lot of Turner love back then, I loved him, and remembered thinking during the lottery that as long as we were top 2 we'd be fine because I wanted him at 2 and Wall at 1, slightly over Favors at #2, I loved his story and his game in college, I thought he was going to be like Grant Hill. Alas, anything but.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

if we get bennet I wonder, how he'll mix with dmc nxt yr...I think we should get porter, even though a front court of cousins and bennet would be offensively superior to all others except marc and zach

I know people on this board seem to love dmc more than life itself, but for my part, I hope the Wizards never consider bringing the guy in. He's like the modern version of the Chevy Corvair converted to NBA player - "Unsafe on any team". The dude is a thermonuclear response waiting to happen.

I think Cousins, in terms of raw talent, is a top 10 player in the NBA. He destroyed Blake Griffin in the last game of the season. He shows passion out there. He's been surrounded by utter crap in terms of coaching the ownership around him. That's why I think Tyreke Evans is also under-valued. He'd look great in a better situation.

Cousins also has destroyed Bynum and Howard in other games.

How about the #3 pick, Kevin Seraphin, and a 2015 round 1 pick for #7 pick and DeMarcus Cousins?

I think Cousins is not an elite player but he can be like Zach Randolph on a team with a player like Wall. I also think he needs a quality big man. Nene and Okafor can help him IMO. So can a dunker like Vesely, because DeMarcus is a good passer when he chooses to pass.

I think he would foul and turn the ball over less as a Wizard. I believe Wall and Beal with Nene would improve Cousins' FG percentage a lot.