Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VI

[Wizardspride]

Wizardspride- Im referring to the no left, being pushed off the block by guards and smaller defenders, and forcing bad shots when he doesn't have good position. Skill gets marginalized if you can't establish position on the floor. At 8 I would have considered him. At 3...No chance....

I never said Len was a finished product but I'm intrigued by the raw skills.

Since this is probably the last time we'll picking this high for the forseeable future I'd rather go with the "homerun" pick.

[Dat2U]

Faried wasn't a tweener, he was just undersized. Nothing about his game in college said SF. He didn't take 3's, his FT% was troubling low, and oh... he rebounded like a BEAST. He was no more a SF than Dejuan Blair was. Both were power guys whose lack of height gave GM's pause.

As for shticks? Tobias Harris - now with 2 years of NBA experience, is only 4 months older than Shabazz and 8 months older than Bennett.

Undersized only in height and weight. Length wise he's ideal for a PF. He's got enough length to play stretches at C in small ball scenarios.

FYP

Faried measured in at 225 back at the NBA combine in 2011. The average weight of PFs in the DX database is 231.

[Dat2U]

Fwiw, Tobias Harris had his success with Orlando mainly as a... Power Forward. He played mostly with Harkless - who's their 3. So, you could still consider him a tweener. I pegged him way back as a poor man's Melo, and I'd still describe him that way. How poor is in the eye of the beholder. In college, he was pudgy and had a lot of baby fat. He barely looks like the same guy now.

Are you sure? I haven't watched Orlando enough to know. Is Harkless switching off with Harris on defense and guarding 3s but operating as a 4 offensively? Or is it by matchup, maybe? 82games shows Harris mostly at the 3. The times he got on the court for Milwaukee, was as a 3.

[tontoz]

Faried measured in at 225 back at the NBA combine in 2011. The average weight of PFs in the DX database is 231.

Faried was a senior. Many of the players drafted are underclassmen. And a lot of them are scrubs that rarely see the court.

Are you really trying to say that 225 is the ideal weight for a pf?

Faried gets pushed around routinely by opposing bigs, as he did against the Wizards. His man D suffers as a result.

[Deeptu McPullup]

Looking at the DX database, Faried is very unusual to have such a tall reach with those measurements. 8'10 or shorter is more typical of guys at 6'7" and roughly 7'0" wingspans.

He's got narrow shoulders.

I have the Wizards @ Nuggets game on my comp which I just opened now and he looks a little bit slighter of build overall than Wilson Chandler, though with longer arms.

In eyeballing him, let's just say you wouldn't want him to lose any weight.

interesting you mention that game as it's on my DVR still and I happened to watch a couple
quarters of it last night. Our bigs dominated Faried in that game. I think there is
a case to be made that Faried IS a tweener. He couldn't guard either Okafor
or Seraphin, neither of whom is thought of as particularly long.

He's a great athlete with a great motor to go with it. But I'm not sure if he can
take the next step in the NBA, to become more than a role player, albeit a good/very good one.
But he's kinda small to guard legit sized NBA 4s. He's succeeded thus far on motor and hops.

Yeah, I was fairly shocked at how svelt he was when I saw him in the NBA and he does get pounded in that game. I don't know if I'd say tweener so much as a guy who under no circumstances should ever be matched against a low post ox who's going to take it right at him. When he's standing next to Gallo, he's just got a lot less bulk in comparison, so there's not that much he can do there. He certainly shouldn't be swung up to center.

I believe he'd need to go Paul Millsap and develop his ball skills and shooting to really make a jump into another echelon as a player, but yes, he'll probably always be a big risk in the playoffs in the wrong matchup.

[jivelikenice]

Wizardspride- Im referring to the no left, being pushed off the block by guards and smaller defenders, and forcing bad shots when he doesn't have good position. Skill gets marginalized if you can't establish position on the floor. At 8 I would have considered him. At 3...No chance....

I never said Len was a finished product but I'm intrigued by the raw skills.

Since this is probably the last time we'll picking this high for the forseeable future I'd rather go with the "homerun" pick.

I never said that you called him a finished product. He has intruiging raw skills, but I see a Javale type of player in terms of the highs being very high and the lows being very low. In regards to the homerun pick? I think other guys high upside as well and are safer options. Based on whiffing on the Vesely pick, we need to hit....Can't swing for the fences and miss here or you set the team back for years.

[Dat2U]

I wouldn't make this trade, I'm just asking... since were talking about Harris as being an example as a tweener who's having NBA success, would anyone trade the 3rd pick & Singleton for Harris?

Also, did Harris really breakout last season, or did he just get up a lot of shots on a bad team (aka an Andray Blatche style breakout)?

[Dat2U]

Faried measured in at 225 back at the NBA combine in 2011. The average weight of PFs in the DX database is 231.

Faried was a senior. Many of the players drafted are underclassmen. And a lot of them are scrubs that rarely see the court.

Are you really trying to say that 225 is the ideal weight for a pf?

Faried gets pushed around routinely by opposing bigs, as he did against the Wizards. His man D suffers as a result.

Don't put words in mouth. The bulk of the discussion had to do with his perceived lack of height/length.

Does Faried only being 225 lbs stop him from being a very productive NBA player???

[WizarDynasty]

Never draft a center with below average lower body strength, no matter what his skill set is unless it late in the second round.
Lower body strength is much higher ranked priority than a skill set for a center.
Len has horrible lower body strength. He is a disaster for whoever drafts him. He is not going to magically develop lower body strength. I am tired of hearing the term adequate. Wizard Material for a bigman going into the new leonsis era means that all Wizard Bigmen have shown superior lower body strength prior to coming to the Wizards.

I have yet to see Faried lead his team deep into the playoffs so let's not pump Faried like he carries his team on his back. He is a decent player but he is going to carry his team on his back during the playoffs. He is niche is rebounding but he doesn't have superior lower body strength. He is great at catching balls outside of his area but he isn't s zach randolph type rebounder, who owns the center of the paint with his lower body strength and uses his lower body to leverage and "steal" the best spots in the paint for rebounds.
Lower body strength is KING for BiGS. It the reason why tweeners normally get exposed. Most tweeners don't have above average lower body strength. Faried uses his athleticism to get rebounds but if he battling a traditional powerforward with above average lower body strength for the best rebounding spot, Faried loses everytime. He will use his quickness to try and make up for his inability to old down the best spot.

It's like a inferior lion sneaking in to the dominant lions territory and stealing one of his 10 lioness. Faried is good at it but I would rather have the dominant lion who pretty much control the territory in a one on one battle. So again, lesson for today, Wizard Material for bigmen mean's "prospect has displayed above average lower body strength before coming to the wizards". If that prospects hasn't regularly displayed above average lower body strength, he is eliminated from discussion. Plain and simple.

[Deeptu McPullup]

Fwiw, Tobias Harris had his success with Orlando mainly as a... Power Forward. He played mostly with Harkless - who's their 3. So, you could still consider him a tweener. I pegged him way back as a poor man's Melo, and I'd still describe him that way. How poor is in the eye of the beholder. In college, he was pudgy and had a lot of baby fat. He barely looks like the same guy now.

Since we're talking measurements.....the thing with him is that his fairly robust upper body is entirely out of proportion with his legs and particularly wee tiny calves.

It looks like that app my daughter has where each page is a character, but it's cut into three and you can mix and match the head-body-legs of Ms. Bubble Bear and Terry the Toad into different arrangements. Though less extreme, Harris looks something like Bo Jackson with my lower body.

[GhostsOfGil]

Never draft a center with below average lower body strength, no matter what his skill set is unless it late in the second round.
Lower body strength is much higher ranked priority than a skill set for a center.
Len has horrible lower body strength. He is a disaster for whoever drafts him. He is not going to magically develop lower body strength. I am tired of hearing the term adequate. Wizard Material for a bigman going into the new leonsis era means that all Wizard Bigmen have shown superior lower body strength prior to coming to the Wizards.

And how do you feel about Noels lower body strength?

[Ruzious]

Fwiw, Tobias Harris had his success with Orlando mainly as a... Power Forward. He played mostly with Harkless - who's their 3. So, you could still consider him a tweener. I pegged him way back as a poor man's Melo, and I'd still describe him that way. How poor is in the eye of the beholder. In college, he was pudgy and had a lot of baby fat. He barely looks like the same guy now.

Are you sure? I haven't watched Orlando enough to know. Is Harkless switching off with Harris on defense and guarding 3s but operating as a 4 offensively? Or is it by matchup, maybe? 82games shows Harris mostly at the 3. The times he got on the court for Milwaukee, was as a 3.

Honestly, I didn't watch any of their games other than the Wiz game, but Harris is much stronger than Harkless and I'd be very surprised if Harkless played any 4. And his rebounding numbers make it pretty clear that Harris was playing inside. 82games usually just puts the taller guy at the bigger position, so take it with several grains of sodium.

[Deeptu McPullup]

I wouldn't make this trade, I'm just asking... since were talking about Harris as being an example as a tweener who's having NBA success, would anyone trade the 3rd pick & Singleton for Harris?

Also, did Harris really breakout last season, or did he just get up a lot of shots on a bad team (aka an Andray Blatche style breakout)?

I wouldn't make the trade; for one thing, Harris needs the ball a lot and I've seen Orlando fans call him a "point power forward" (though others think he's a small forward and they're probably correct; basically they have multiple small forwards; OTOH, Harris has the sort of build to where he might gain 20 pounds of muscle). Not ideal with Wall.

On talent I wouldn't do it either, but I haven't really seen him enough. Well, if we were going to take Bennet otherwise, yes, I would do it.

Orlando was really awful while he was there, so it's hard to judge how good he'll be. Somebody was going to have to score and we know all about how that goes as Wizards fans.

[jivelikenice]

I know the question wasn't for me but I don't like Noels or Len. My top 5 is:
1. Otto
2. Bennett
3. McLemore - Not a great fit but we'd have ELITE shooting
4. Oladipo
5. Noels

[GhostsOfGil]

At last.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn5U7aI2Ng[/youtube]

So much good. Then so much bad.

[tontoz]

Faried measured in at 225 back at the NBA combine in 2011. The average weight of PFs in the DX database is 231.

Faried was a senior. Many of the players drafted are underclassmen. And a lot of them are scrubs that rarely see the court.

Are you really trying to say that 225 is the ideal weight for a pf?

Faried gets pushed around routinely by opposing bigs, as he did against the Wizards. His man D suffers as a result.

Don't put words in mouth. The bulk of the discussion had to do with his perceived lack of height/length.

Does Faried only being 225 lbs stop him from being a very productive NBA player???

So I am putting words in your mouth now?

Undersized only in height.

I had already mentioned that Faried weighed only 225 at the combine when you made this post, light for a 4. Either you were not aware that a players bulk is important to play the 4, or you were just ignoring Faried's lack thereof. Take your pick.

And yes his lack of bulk does hurt him, especially on the defensive end which you and many others keep harping on with Bennett.

[WizarDynasty]

Faried was a senior. Many of the players drafted are underclassmen. And a lot of them are scrubs that rarely see the court.

Are you really trying to say that 225 is the ideal weight for a pf?

Faried gets pushed around routinely by opposing bigs, as he did against the Wizards. His man D suffers as a result.

Don't put words in mouth. The bulk of the discussion had to do with his perceived lack of height/length.

Does Faried only being 225 lbs stop him from being a very productive NBA player???

So I am putting words in your mouth now?

Undersized only in height.

I had already mentioned that Faried weighed only 225 at the combine when you made this post, light for a 4. Either you were not aware that a players bulk is important to play the 4, or you were just ignoring Faried's lack thereof. Take your pick.

And yes his lack of bulk does hurt him, especially on the defensive end which you and many others keep harping on with Bennett.

you guys are getting it confused, just because you have bulk doesn't mean you have above average lower body strength.
the real question is, does faried have above average lower body strength for a powerforward. When he battles with another player who has above average lower body strength, who normally wins. It's usually easy to see when to player are fighting for rebounding position, who has the superior lower body strength. It has alot to do with leverage. Javale McGee had absolutely horrible lower body strength. Seraphin, even though he is bulky, has very poor lower body strength and leverage ability while fighting for rebounds. Lower body strength involves using your hips to push other big bodies off key spots in the paint, knocking guys off balance just as they are about to jump for a rebound and your ability to hold off others with your lower body and Jump for a rebound at the same time quickly in response to reading a basketball carom path.
Lower body strength, reaction speed, and hand size. With lower body strength being the most important, and hand size being important but the least important of the three.
that's how you should evaluate bigs like faried, not look at how much they weigh. What evidence did they show before coming to the nba that they excelled in these areas against other strong lower body bigmen.
Watching Tim Duncan win the rebounding battle against Zach Randolph, two bigs who have are above average lower body strength bigs. Just look at when Faried went toe toe with another top rebounder and visually see who wins the battle. Then you can tell if Faried has above average lower body strength.
I look at Noel versus Steven adams and I can tell you adams has superior lower body strength. Visual evidence is the best way to evaluate.

[dobrojim]

Seraphin has plenty of faults but insufficient lower body strength ain't one of them.

[Dat2U]

So I am putting words in your mouth now?

Undersized only in height.

I had already mentioned that Faried weighed only 225 at the combine when you made this post, light for a 4. Either you were not aware that a players bulk is important to play the 4, or you were just ignoring Faried's lack thereof. Take your pick.

And yes his lack of bulk does hurt him, especially on the defensive end which you and many others keep harping on with Bennett.

Great post Tontoz, your really one smart wippersnapper. Your completely right and I'm completely wrong. I feel so stupid. Faried IS really undersized for a PF. It's a wonder he's still in the league today. As you've correctly noted, he simply doesn't have the adequate bulk for the position. I don't know why Denver plays him so much, they obviously owe the bulk of their playoff failures to Faried's lack of a rump. The stats must really lie for him to have a career PER of 19.6, a TS% of .587, an ORtg of 118, a TRB of 18.8% and WS/48 of .181.

Your point is well taken. Faried's lack of bulk puts me at ease about Bennett's questionable length. Especially since weight is apparently just as important as length in terms of a big man's NBA prospects. Since you've properly pointed out Faried's inadequacies, somehow someway Bennett looks so much better in my eyes now and I've come along to your line of thinking. I feel I've grown as a person since I've been graced with your feedback. Thank you for making me, a better me.

[tontoz]

Great post Tontoz, your really one smart wippersnapper. Your completely right and I'm completely wrong. I feel so stupid. Faried IS really undersized for a PF. It's a wonder he's still in the league today. As you've correctly noted, he simply doesn't have the adequate bulk for the position. I don't know why Denver plays him so much, they obviously owe the bulk of their playoff failures to Faried's lack of a rump. The stats must really lie for him to have a career PER of 19.6, a TS% of .587, an ORtg of 118, a TRB of 18.8% and WS/48 of .181.

Your point is well taken. Faried's lack of bulk puts me at ease about Bennett's questionable length. Especially since weight is apparently just as important as length in terms of a big man's NBA prospects. Since you've properly pointed out Faried's inadequacies, somehow someway Bennett looks so much better in my eyes now and I've come along to your line of thinking. I feel I've grown as a person since I've been graced with your feedback. Thank you for making me, a better me.

Not surprised to see you get your panties in a wad and make up nonsensical strawman arguments. All i ever said was that Faried was light for a 4, contrary to your claims that he had ideal size for the 4.

Just a few minutes ago you made the post below Noah's success at the 5 despite of his lack of reach, then you post the nonsense above. Oh the irony...

There's outliers for everything, of course. But there's also a lot to be learned from history. If history tells us that 95% of PFs with a standing reach under 8'9 do diddly squat or 97% of Cs under 8'11 don't make it, then that's something you must give huge consideration to.

Joakim Noah's energy and activity level gives him a unique selling propotion that the vast majority of other bigs can't bring. Same with Blake Griffin and his athleticism. If a guy has something incredibly unique, then of course you've got to look at the whole picture before drawing final conclusions.