LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - La Going to LA

[GhostsOfGil]

^ ironic i spelled dummies wrong

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

When the rest of us are "living the lives we have to go back to" we can recognize King James' greatness.

This season and last he's done everything a player and a leader on the court can do. I think he's the greatest NBA combo of physical talent and skill of all time. He's a winner on the court, even with his flops, whining, tantrums, and his constant referee verbal abuse. Accepting his histrionics as part of the complete package I still think he's perhaps the greatest player ever.

That said, his insinuating the rest of us don't have lives plus all of the things I have seen from Lebron over the years make me think he's well earned the nickname "Ledouche".

Don't get me wrong. James is likeable compared to Wade.

Well said. Wade used to be beloved before Lebron went to Miami. Is Wade's fall from grace due to the king/devil comin to town? Only Charlie Daniels and Lebron know for sure.

Sorry I am just now coming back to this thread after venting.

Real good point about Wade being not as beloved. Tim Duncan made David Robinson seem like a utility role player during the Admiral's swan song years. Lebron is making Wade and Bosh each his caddy.

I bet deep down inside both Bosh and Wade have at the very least bruised egos, if not regret at losing luster. Ray Allen is another guy I don't view the same. He's clearly just tagging along on James' coattails. Like the rest he's riding on the gravy train.

Lebron has to be the guy. What does that say about the team? Or does he in fact NOT make others better? People want to put him on a pedestal with Magic and Michael. I think that he stands a chance of having his legacy knocked down a peg this series.

[dobrojim]

It's been a long ride. A lot of opinions have changed but most of the hate stems back to 2007. Some of the smart Wizards fans have stopped following this team but for us dumbys who have continued investment, remember watching the 2007 playoffs while ESPN and the refs kissed his ass on Every. Single. Play. The series was over before it started. The entire series had ADVANCE LEBRON AT ALL COSTS written all over it.

There is a difference between MJs douchey commutative spirit and Lebron's entitled arrogance.

This.

and lets not forget his sidekick got EVERY.SINGLE.CALL in the finals vs Dallas.
MIA did not deserve to win that series.

[Ruzious]

And Bosh and Wade have to deal with the presure of being expected to win the championship - with anything less being considered a failure on their part. Lebron already had to deal with that presure to some extent, but it was a new situation for Wade and especially for Bosh - who never won much at Toronto.

Wade really irritated me more than usual last night with his do anything for a foul call antics last night. Ray Allen also got into the act. It really does take away from the enjoyment of watching the game. Reggie Miller has become my least favorite analyst during the playoffs - with his comments commending those who flop. It reminded me of why I didn't like watching him as a player - he perfected the kickout move on his jump shots - where he'd kick out his knees on the way up to force contact and flop backwards - almost always working to get him on the line - and leaving defenders shaking their heads.

[penbeast0]

This has to be the ultimate LeBron hate page lol. I just believe that people need to give credit where its due. Unless you are a Cleveland fan, I don't understand where the hate is coming from.

It's been a long ride. A lot of opinions have changed but most of the hate stems back to 2007. Some of the smart Wizards fans have stopped following this team but for us dumbys who have continued to invest, we remember watching the 2007 playoffs while ESPN and the refs kissed his ass on Every. Single. Play. The series was over before it started. The entire series had ADVANCE LEBRON AT ALL COSTS written all over it.

There is a difference between MJs douchey competitive spirit and Lebron's entitled arrogance.

What, you don't remember Jordan getting every single call and biching out the refs when he didn't get to the line even where the foul was clearly offensive (to say nothing of "The Push-off)?

[jimij]

Penbeast you're absolutely on point about Jordan but I'll still take the competitive @sshole over the whiny baby flopping on the ground anyday. Jordan got his head handed to him by the pistons for years and all he did was work harder and get meaner. LeBron would rather take the easy way out and have the referees reward him for fooling them.

[GhostsOfGil]

Jordan got his fair share of star calls and whined quite a bit but I dont ever remember him yelling to a ref: "Danny, they're trying to hurt me!!"

[AFM]

Imagine Hakeem or Russel yelling that. LOL

[montestewart]

Imagine Hakeem or Russel yelling that. LOL

Wilt Chamberlain averaged (AVERAGED) 45.8 minutes per game in his career in the post. If I'm recalling correctly, he never (NEVER) fouled out, even once. Moses Malone averaged 34 minutes per game in his career in the post, and I think he broke Wilt's record for consecutive games played without fouling out.

In addition to possibly pursuing streaks with dubious worth, I think those two got a few star calls, but I can't imagine either one of them whining about it.

[OffTheWall2]

Jordan got his fair share of star calls and whined quite a bit but I dont ever remember him yelling to a ref: "Danny, they're trying to hurt me!!"

That's because MJ was less animated, always covered his mouth with his jersey, and was probably more respectful; but to act like he never complained is silly. MJ spoke to refs after every single play.

[Ruzious]

Yeah, MJ played games with the officials as much as anyone. He also got more calls than anyone and got away with more than anyone - especially with left-handed push-offs to free up space for game-ending jump shots.

[GhostsOfGil]

That's not true. MJ got star calls but both Wade and Lebron have benefited far more from the officials over their careers.

There are numbers that back this up: FGA in the paint, draw foul %s, FGA-FTA ratio, etc.

[pancakes3]

The other edge of the lebron-foul douche-sword is that he's never called for fouls either. He's 31st in career free throw attempts already and not even in the top 250 in personal fouls. Nobody can play all-nba caliber defense, attack the paint, and handle the ball as much as Lebron does without picking up at least a couple of fouls. Career foul rate of 1.9 and this season he only got called for 1.4 fouls per game. That's an entirely new level of ref favoritism.

[GhostsOfGil]

Wade Career FGA per 36 minutes: 17.6
Wade Career FTA per 36 minutes: 8.4

Lebron Career FGA per 36 minutes: 18.3
Lebron Career FTA per 36 minutes: 7.8

Jordan Career FGA per 36 minutes: 21.5
Jordan Career FTA per 36 minutes: 7.7

One year Wade averaged 10.7 FTA per game on 18.8 shots per game! In Lebron's 10 year career he's averaged over 10 FTA per game 3 times. Over MJ's 15 year career, he averaged over 10 FTA 2ce and it took him over 24 FGAs per game to do so.

[GhostsOfGil]

Jordan got his fair share of star calls and whined quite a bit but I dont ever remember him yelling to a ref: "Danny, they're trying to hurt me!!"

That's because MJ was less animated, always covered his mouth with his jersey, and was probably more respectful; but to act like he never complained is silly. MJ spoke to refs after every single play.

Well things were different then. MJ complained all the time (I never said he didn't) but he was a man about it. He was a d and a prick but he did it with toughness. If someone got up in his grill he pushed back, not run to the refs (although the consequences then were much less severe).

[Ruzious]

That's not true. MJ got star calls but both Wade and Lebron have benefited far more from the officials over their careers.

There are numbers that back this up: FGA in the paint, draw foul %s, FGA-FTA ratio, etc.

MJ drove less as he got older because he didn't have the body to take contact that Lebron has. Also, Lebron has the benefit of hand-checking rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for at least most of MJ's career, hand-checking was allowed.

[GhostsOfGil]

That's not true. MJ got star calls but both Wade and Lebron have benefited far more from the officials over their careers.

There are numbers that back this up: FGA in the paint, draw foul %s, FGA-FTA ratio, etc.

MJ drove less as he got older because he didn't have the body to take contact that Lebron has. Also, Lebron has the benefit of hand-checking rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for at least most of MJ's career, hand-checking was allowed.

Ya, MJ was far less agressive after his first 3peat but even during the early stages of his career, he was still averaging under 10 FTA per 36 minutes on over 20 FGA per game. I like to compare his numbers to Wade because his slashing ability is very similar to Jordans (IMO). I cant find the numbers but I remember reading that Wade's draw foul % blows Jordan's out of the water. Do we really believe that Wade is better at drawing contact?

[Ruzious]

That's not true. MJ got star calls but both Wade and Lebron have benefited far more from the officials over their careers.

There are numbers that back this up: FGA in the paint, draw foul %s, FGA-FTA ratio, etc.

MJ drove less as he got older because he didn't have the body to take contact that Lebron has. Also, Lebron has the benefit of hand-checking rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for at least most of MJ's career, hand-checking was allowed.

Ya, MJ was far less agressive after his first 3peat but even during the early stages of his career, he was still averaging under 10 FTA per 36 minutes on over 20 FGA per game. I like to compare his numbers to Wade because his slashing ability is very similar to Jordans (IMO). I cant find the numbers but I remember reading that Wade's draw foul % blows Jordan's out of the water. Do we really believe that Wade is better at drawing contact?

I think the hand-checking and defensive 3 second rules made driving to the basket easier - and something teams with good penetrators have taken advantage of - though I don't remember what year those changes were implemented.

[GhostsOfGil]

94. Jordan was pretty much in post up mode by then. I'm not sure I understand which side your taking with the hand checking statement. Are you saying Wade draws more fouls because its easier to get into the paint now? If so, I think thats a valid point... Although I still think it pulls defenders out resulting in less contested shots in the paint.

[Nivek]

That's not true. MJ got star calls but both Wade and Lebron have benefited far more from the officials over their careers.

There are numbers that back this up: FGA in the paint, draw foul %s, FGA-FTA ratio, etc.

MJ drove less as he got older because he didn't have the body to take contact that Lebron has. Also, Lebron has the benefit of hand-checking rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for at least most of MJ's career, hand-checking was allowed.

It's interesting -- as measured by points scored per 100 possessions, the scoring environment during Jordan's era was slightly easier than it has been during Lebron's career. A more physical style in the 90s was perhaps offset by less sophisticated scouting and defensive schemes.

Each player has unique challenges/advantages during his own time, and my feeling is that it's a net wash. To me, the best way to compare players across eras is using the notion of relative dominance -- how well a player performs compared to players of his own era.

Era translations also can be fun/interesting. If we look at a player's performance as a "share" of his team's -- as in, Player X gets 30% of his team's rebounds. When I've done this, I've found striking similarities between players across eras.