A few questions about the Nuggets

[pistons]

Hey Pistons fan here , as if my name didn't already give it away . . . just had a few quick questions :

1. Why is there so much George Karl hate . . I've always thought he did a pretty good job , especially with no Superstars , and he also won Coach of the Year, for whatever that's worth . . Just curious as to what he does that makes him a bad coach , because as a Piston fan , I know a thing or two about bad coaching . . .

2. In a similar vein , why no love for Andre Miller. I like what he does when paired with Lawson , but again this board doesn't really like him either . . Just curious as to why ?

3. Is Brewer a product of the system , or do you think he could go to another team ( like the Pistons) and be a solid starter ?

4. Would the Nuggets sacrifice Wilson Chandler (like trade him to the Pistons) , in order to keep Iggy and Brewer and avoid the tax ?

Just trying to gain some insight since I only saw the Nuggets a handful of times during the season , and in the playoffs . .

[The Rebel]

1 Can you name any other coach in any other major sports league that is allowed to go 1 and done in the playoffs 8 out of 9 years and still has a job? Now add in some other facts that this team is built perfectly for his system, he has a say in front office decisions, rotations and major mistakes have costs the Nuggets several series, he was just out coached by Mark Jackson in a series that the Nuggets should have won, his penchant for overplaying role players that kiss his ass, he refuses to play young players until forced by injuries, he likes to butt heads with talented players and has throughout his career, and a case can be made that Karl should have been fired years ago. Karl is a good coach for a veteran team but not a guy that has ever shown the ability to get his team to match expectations once they get to the playoffs.

2. Andre Miller has no interest in playing at a faster pace which is how the team as a whole is built, he has no outside shot on a team that has desperately needed outside shooters the entirety of both times he has been on the roster, his defense is marginal at best, and he likes to bitch about his role to the media. Whats not to love?

3. Let me put it this way, Brewer was cut, and salary dumped twice in the year before he came to the Nuggets, while he has improved somewhat while in Denver, he still cannot put the ball on the floor, is not a good outside shooter despite wide open shots, and is just okay at defense. I would not want him as a starter on my team, he is okay as a 7th or 8th man rotation type guy who can come in and create havoc for 15 mpg or so.

4. Nuggets may trade Chandler but it will not be to keep Iggy and/or Brewer, once Iggy opts out the Nuggets are at $53 million give or take after cap holds with 12 players. Even bringing back 3 of Brewer, Iggy, Stone, and Mozgov the Nuggets will have enough cap room as long as they do not dramatically overpay any of them. Fact is most observers believe Brewer is the odd man out, the Nuggets have Fournier, Hamilton, and Q. Miller that are already better or have the chance to be considerably better then Brewer. That is also not mentioning that Chandler can play the stretch 4 role relatively well as he is a good post defender for a stretch 4, which as long as Karl is coach is a very important role for the Nuggets.

[pistons]

Ok thanks for the insight !

[Ice32]

Rebel speaks the truth, but I disagree with his assessment on Brewer. The guy played for 4 coaches in 3.5 years in Minny and tore his ACL in his 2nd season - he never really got a chance to shine, although his 3rd year was a big improvement on his first two.

In Denver, the coaching staff gave him the opportunity to do what he is good at - run, cut, score in transition, shoot the corner three. Yes, his long distance shooting is not fantastic, but none of the Nuggets are fantastic at shooting threes.

He is an above average defender, but can sometimes gamble too much, but that could be harnessed by the right coach (Popovic). His ball handling has improved and he is good at the top of the key jumper off a screen. he developed a nice crossover, and is good at running through screens and gives 100% every game.

Yes I believe he could start on the Pistons squad, but like Rebel said, he is more effective off the bench as an energy guy playing 18-24 mins.

[Peezo]

Rebel speaks the truth, but I disagree with his assessment on Brewer. The guy played for 4 coaches in 3.5 years in Minny and tore his ACL in his 2nd season - he never really got a chance to shine, although his 3rd year was a big improvement on his first two.

I'm a MIN fan who came to see about Iggy and came across this thread. I think your assessment of Brewer and Rebel's are both good snapshots of who he is. I wouldn't call him a bust being picked at 7 because he has turned out to be exactly who we thought we were drafting (I'd say he is a decent defender and we thought he would be very strong) but he hasn't really improved in any of the areas we thought he would. I agree that he never got a fair shake here due to terrible/different coaches and a truly inept collection of talent. Injury also played a huge role. However Corey kind of is what he is at this point, and that will always be a bench player with great hustle and poor ball skills (including shooting). He is still a great guy to have on the team in terms of carrying a small-cap number and being a solid locker room presence. But I think he would be better on an established playoff team than a team trying to get there.

So to my question - it seems pretty certain Iggy will opt out right? Do you guys have an idea of how much you think his market price will be? Thanks!

[The Rebel]

Personally I think Iggy is worth about $12.5 million a year on a 4 year deal, but I have a feeling he will be paid more then that, and I hope if it is considerably more then that then he is getting paid elsewhere.

[83SixersRocked]

Miller seems to get his share of hate whether it's Denver or Philly. Usually it's that he's too ball-dominant, can't shoot, doesn't pick and roll well. He does enough things well to get some PT, but at this point in his career I think you only put him out there to hold down the fort for a little while. If Gallinari hadn't gone down I don't think there'd be as much hate.

[Wannabe MEP]

Rebel, there's a lot to what you're saying, on all of your points. I'm coming from a different direction though: I'm a Nuggets fan, but I haven't been living and dying every step of the way with them for the last few years. So I'm gonna defend Karl.

1 Can you name any other coach in any other major sports league that is allowed to go 1 and done in the playoffs 8 out of 9 years and still has a job? Now add in some other facts that this team is built perfectly for his system, he has a say in front office decisions, rotations and major mistakes have costs the Nuggets several series, he was just out coached by Mark Jackson in a series that the Nuggets should have won, his penchant for overplaying role players that kiss his ass, he refuses to play young players until forced by injuries, he likes to butt heads with talented players and has throughout his career, and a case can be made that Karl should have been fired years ago. Karl is a good coach for a veteran team but not a guy that has ever shown the ability to get his team to match expectations once they get to the playoffs.

Every season is a disappointment if you don't win a title. But there's only 1 title to go around among 30 teams. In the last 20 years, coaches who have won titles:

1) Phil Jackson - 9
2) Popovich - 4
3) Tomjanovich - 2 (Hakeem's prime, no MJ)
4) Larry Brown - 1
5) Pat Riley - 1
7) Doc Rivers - 1 (super team)
8) Rick Carlisle - 1
9) Spoelstra - 1 (super team)

I'm guessing there have been somewhere around 80 head coaches during that time frame. My point is simply that winning a title is an extremely rare thing. Phil and Pop are geniuses who are playing on another level. Every other coach in this league has to have a lot fall his way to win a title: great players who fit together, health, luck, good coaching decisions, and timing (if MJ doesn't go play baseball, Tomjanovich has zero titles; if Kobe matures a little earlier, Larry Brown has zero titles; etc).

I think Karl is one of the quality coaches in this league. He's not playing on Pop's level, but like Tomjanovich, Doc Rivers, and Rick Carlisle, he could win a title or two if the right pieces and timing fell into place.

With such a young core, the imperfect fit of this team, Gallo's injury, and the rise of GSW (healthy Curry and Bogut + David Lee out for improved defense and spacing: they played SUPERB basketball against the Spurs), this was not a true playoff letdown.

If you fire Karl...who's a real upgrade? You're not getting Pop or Phil, so who do you want? I think your only real hope for an upgrade is finding the next Pop or Phil, but that's a crapshoot.

1. Why is there so much George Karl hate . . I've always thought he did a pretty good job , especially with no Superstars , and he also won Coach of the Year, for whatever that's worth . . Just curious as to what he does that makes him a bad coach , because as a Piston fan , I know a thing or two about bad coaching . . .

Exactly. As a former Suns fan, I know a bit about bad coaching as well. You can do a lot worse than Karl.

[eagle13]

Bucks fan also w/ a question
is chandler better as SF or PF?
will he or who play SF while Gallo's down?
thanks

[Kenny0873]

Bucks fan also w/ a question
is chandler better as SF or PF?
will he or who play SF while Gallo's down?
thanks

He'll play SF until Gallo's back and then his role would depend on what happens to Igoudala. He would either be the 6th man or start at SG.

[The Rebel]

I doubt Chandler starts at SG, he does not have the quickness needed to guard many of the Sgs around the league, when Gallo is back to full health I am sure Chandler will go back to being the backup 3 and 4, getting him 30 mpg.

until Gallo get back if we lose Igoudala I see the starting lineup as
Lawson
Fournier
Chandler
Faried
McGee or Koufos

I think the Nuggets are going to give Fournier every opportunity to succeed this year.

[eagle13]

would the Celtic's 6'5 SG Courtney Lee & #15 (from bucks) for Chandler interest you?
Iggy can play some SF right?

[The Rebel]

would the Celtic's 6'5 SG Courtney Lee & #15 (from bucks) for Chandler interest you?
Iggy can play some SF right?

No, not only is the value bad but the Nuggets need someone to play SF until they figure out what is going to happen with Iggy, some people put it at 60/40 that he will be back, I think that may be a little optimistic right now reading other teams boards and rumors they are catching they think Iggy gets $13-15 million a year which I think is way too much. If Igoudala leaves the Nuggets will have 1 guy available who has decent in game experience with the size and skills to play SF.

For as much as SG/SF depth was a key factor last year, this year it could be a big weakness. The Nuggets are more than likely losing the guy who got the 3rd most minutes at SG/SF last year, Andre Miller hopefully will have his minutes at SG reduced if not altogether eliminated, Gallo is out until the all star break, and Iggy is 50/50 on being back.

It is possible the Nuggets could start next year with a SG/Sf rotation of
Fournier/ MLE free agent/ Hamilton
Chandler/ Hamilton/ Q. Miller/

[Kenny0873]

would the Celtic's 6'5 SG Courtney Lee & #15 (from bucks) for Chandler interest you?
Iggy can play some SF right?

No, not only is the value bad but the Nuggets need someone to play SF until they figure out what is going to happen with Iggy, some people put it at 60/40 that he will be back, I think that may be a little optimistic right now reading other teams boards and rumors they are catching they think Iggy gets $13-15 million a year which I think is way too much. If Igoudala leaves the Nuggets will have 1 guy available who has decent in game experience with the size and skills to play SF.

For as much as SG/SF depth was a key factor last year, this year it could be a big weakness. The Nuggets are more than likely losing the guy who got the 3rd most minutes at SG/SF last year, Andre Miller hopefully will have his minutes at SG reduced if not altogether eliminated, Gallo is out until the all star break, and Iggy is 50/50 on being back.

It is possible the Nuggets could start next year with a SG/Sf rotation of
Fournier/ MLE free agent/ Hamilton
Chandler/ Hamilton/ Q. Miller/

Tony Snell out of New Mexico would be available at that #15 spot and would be a nice fit at that SG/SF spot, but I don't know that I would make that trade, either. Most draft boards have him in the 18-23 range, but I think he's gonna be a gem for somebody.

[The Rebel]

I will not pretend to be an expert on any of the players coming out this year, but I know when there are rumors out there that Illyasova is the key piece in a trade for the 3rd overall pick, there is no way I trade Chandler for the 15th and a bad contract. Add in the depth problem, and I don't know if I would trade Chandler at all without a deal that blows me away.

[Kenny0873]

I will not pretend to be an expert on any of the players coming out this year, but I know when there are rumors out there that Illyasova is the key piece in a trade for the 3rd overall pick, there is no way I trade Chandler for the 15th and a bad contract. Add in the depth problem, and I don't know if I would trade Chandler at all without a deal that blows me away.

I forgot about that Illyasova possibility. Point taken...

[eagle13]

Now that Iggy has opted out -
we might put together a deal with SAC for #7
would you trade Chandler for #7 & Moute?

[eathb_au]

Not in this draft.

[Kenny0873]

Not in this draft.

Right. There are a handful of guys that should be pretty good, but this draft is the weakest in quite a while...