Lbj 13 or Shaq 00, closest player to be best on off and def?

GSP · Post #1 » by **GSP** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:32 pm

Which player was closer or is the best player in the league on offense and defense in a single year. 91 Mj wasnt, neither was peak Russell, or Kareem, or Hakeem, Duncan, Wilt etc.

2013 Lebron-led the best offense when you account for the game he intentionally rest when Heat locked up 1st seed
runner up Dpoy

2000 Shaq runner up Dpoy and monster offense in playoffs. Both players have to carry casts in playoffs but which was one closer to best offensive and defensive in whole league that season?

NYK 455 · Post #2 » by **NYK 455** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:38 pm

I'd have to go with Shaq. Best one year run of all time, imo.

colts18 · Post #3 » by **colts18** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:44 pm

Shaq was the best player defensively in the league in 2000. He absolutely destroyed people defensively. LeBron has no argument as the best. Hibbert and gasol are better defensively.

JordansBulls · Post #4 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:46 pm

1991 MJ or even 1993 MJ. Also Hakeem 1994. 1991 MJ (3rd in steals) and 1993 MJ led the league in ppg and steals. Jordan actually finished 1st by the coaches in 1993 as the top defender and 2nd by the sportscaster. At the 1:22 to 1:32 mark of video. 1994 Hakeem was 2nd in blocks and 3rd in PPG.

E-Balla · Post #5 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:50 pm

Well both of them were clearly the best offensive players. Both were second in DPOY but other than Lebron who believes he deserved it. Whenever there were DPOY threads during the season Noah, Hibbert, Duncan, Gasol, and Sanders were usually more championed. Many still believe Shaq should've win in 2000 (including me). I'll take Shaq.

And what about Hakeem in 94? He was clearly the best on defense and he won DPOY but he was probably the best on offense too (only Shaq might've been better). Some would say 04 KG was the best both ways too (I don't agree but it's certainly arguable).

ceiling raiser · Post #6 » by **ceiling raiser** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:53 pm

Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt were probably pretty close, no? How about Pippen (probably not terribly far off in either)?

colts18 · Post #7 » by **colts18** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:53 pm

JordansBulls wrote:1991 MJ or even 1993 MJ. Also Hakeem 1994. 1991 MJ (3rd in steals) and 1993 MJ led the league in ppg and steals. Jordan actually finished 1st by the coaches in 1993 as the top defender and 2nd by the sportscaster. At the 1:22 to 1:32 mark of video. 1994 Hakeem was 2nd in blocks and 3rd in PPG.

MJ was not close to the best defender in either of those years. In 91, Robinson and Eaton were much better defensively. In 93, Ewing was by far the best defender in the league.

ThaRegul8r · Post #8 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:00 pm

Shaq. That was the one year he put it both together.

nikomCH · Post #9 » by **nikomCH** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:14 pm

LeBron has his good nights but he's isn't consistent enough to be considered the best defensive player in the league.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #10 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:16 pm

Definitely Shaq.
He was a monster defensively that year and should have won the DPOY.

Lebron is a usually a very good defender but he isn't the best defensive player in the league.

GSP · Post #11 » by **GSP** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:17 pm

Hakeem 94-Shaq and Barkley better offense IMO
Wilt I dont see either Oscar or Jerry were better offense or Russ better defense
Kareem maybe............
Pippen no way ever close to best offense IMO

E-Balla · Post #12 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:23 pm

Barkley? He played 65 games and shot at 56 TS. Hakeem was definetly better in 94. Shaq is close but remember the playoffs.

Shaqsquatch · Post #13 » by **Shaqsquatch** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:42 pm

GC Pantalones wrote:Barkley? He played 65 games and shot at 56 TS. Hakeem was definetly better in 94. Shaq is close but remember the playoffs.

Playoffs?

Dipper 13 · Post #14 » by **Dipper 13** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:25 am

Wilt I dont see either Oscar or Jerry were better offense or Russ better defense

Russell was better than him defensively every year. The team estimates indicate they were very close in 1968, though I'm not sure how much that has to do with Wilt. It could be the addition of Johnny Green and the improvement of Luke Jackson. As far as offense, in 1967, it's not even a question IMO. But in 1966 as well he certainly can be argued as the best offensive player in the league, looking at Dean Oliver's estimates.

Not once in any single year from 1960-69 did Oscar, West, or Baylor provide more offensive lift than Wilt did from 1965 to 1966. They never even played on teams that equaled the offensive value of Wilt that year (+7.2). In the earlier thread I had it at +5.8, but that is probably wrong since the 1965 figure is combining the Warriors & Sixers. But I plugged in the numbers for the 1965 Sixers offense, excluding Wilt's stats entirely (since he was the only player they received in trade), and the Sixers ORtg without his contribution that year was 89.3, or -3.8 below league average. In 1966 they were +3.4 on offense. Looking forward to 1967, the Sixers improved by +10.6 from two years earlier. Defense is almost impossible to do since the box scores are incomplete and there isn't even opponent stats before 1971.

Not only was 1966 his final year of volume scoring, but it was his only year playing in a stable environment as a scorer with the 16 foot lane. Even if the wider paint took him a couple feet further from the hoop, it helped him out too a lot since there was more room in the paint to work with not only for himself but the entire team as well, mainly cutters. This is especially true given how poor the concepts of floor spacing were back then compared to now. If he played with the 16 foot lane for the first five years of his career, I'm sure his team's offensive results would be much higher on average. Look how poor the spacing is on this play for instance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU&t=13m48s

A wider paint would reduce the defensive congestion by default. The only way to ignore Wilt's offensive impact on the 76ers is to assume that a 22 year old rookie Billy Cunningham was basically a +7.0 player on offense the instant he arrived.

Royals ORtg

Spoiler:

Lakers ORtg

Spoiler:

Dipper 13 · Post #15 » by **Dipper 13** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:42 am

I also did this for the Warriors offense based on Dean Oliver's formula, correct me if I'm wrong:

1965 Warriors (Entire Season): 87.7 ORtg (-5.4)

Without Wilt: 81.0 ORtg (-12.1)

Difference: 6.7

E-Balla · Post #16 » by **E-Balla** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:55 am

Shaqsquatch wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:Barkley? He played 65 games and shot at 56 TS. Hakeem was definetly better in 94. Shaq is close but remember the playoffs.

Playoffs?

Yeah he scored 20 a game and was swept. He was young so it wasn't a big deal but it still happened.

Shaqsquatch · Post #17 » by **Shaqsquatch** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:23 am

GC Pantalones wrote:
Shaqsquatch wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:Barkley? He played 65 games and shot at 56 TS. Hakeem was definetly better in 94. Shaq is close but remember the playoffs.

Playoffs?

Yeah he scored 20 a game and was swept. He was young so it wasn't a big deal but it still happened.

Ok, but the Shaq in question is the 2000 version not the 1994/95 one.

E-Balla · Post #18 » by **E-Balla** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:04 am

No I was saying Hakeem was the he's on both sides in 94 and Shaq was the next best offensively.

Gregoire · Post #19 » by **Gregoire** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:05 am

Closest:
Hakeem 94,95
Wilt 67
Kareem
MJ 91,90,93,88
Shaq 00
Lebron 12,13

john248 · Post #20 » by **john248** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:23 am

Shaq 2000 was probably the most dominant season I've ever seen and can be argued ever. LBJ 13 isn't close to that; certainly a high or one of the highest peak seasons ever, but LBJ 13 wasn't nearly as dominant and impactful as Shaq was. Could be nostalgia and Laker homerism, but Shaq was damn near unstoppable and just ridiculous.