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#3 for Ilyasova being discussed

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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#221 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:30 pm

montestewart wrote:
deneem4 wrote:Ersan is a guaranteed 15/8 in 27mins
Nene off the bench for pf/c is a guaranteed 15/7

Ilyasova has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Nene has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Why are either of these outcomes guaranteed?


Once Skiles was fired:

43 games:
30 mpg
16.1 ppg
8.2 rpg
46% 3FG%
57.6 TS%


The stretch wasn't unprecedented. Last year he finally got consistent minutes because injuries hit the team hard. Final three months of the season:

40 games
30 mpg
15.5 points
9.7 rpg
.471 3FG%
.601 TS%


That's who he is as a player.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#222 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:38 pm

And like I said, I certainly don't blame any of you for passing on the deal. If I were running the team I'd add another young piece too. I said as much on my board when talking about your situation:

ReasonablySober wrote:Personally, if I were in the Wizards shoes I'd take Zeller or Len and continue adding to the young core. They could (and should) be a playoff team next season. Just keep adding young core pieces around the same age.

But I don't know the situation over there in Washington. If they have a mandate to win as many games as possible next season in an effort to appease Wall, then I don't think they could get a better player than Ilyasova with that pick. I think he adds five wins to that team and would look outstanding with Wall getting him the ball on pick and rolls and kick outs.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#223 » by deneem4 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:40 pm

montestewart wrote:
deneem4 wrote:Ersan is a guaranteed 15/8 in 27mins
Nene off the bench for pf/c is a guaranteed 15/7

Ilyasova has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Nene has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Why are either of these outcomes guaranteed?


Nene put up 14.5 when traded to washington in 2012 thts in 25 mins
Nene coming off the bench makes him top scoring option with tht squad, especially if he switches up between pf and c
If you dont think nene can giv us 15 why not trade him for humpries who posted dbl dbls his prior seasons????

Illyasova was only played 25mins as a buck, he wouldve averaged it this season if he actually played in the beginning..
He still put up 13 playing with the 2 of the top 10 hogs in the nba...

Not to mention the john wall effect on shooters


Also nba defense is wayyyyyyyyyy more advanced than college...sf is the toughest position in the league

If you think porter going to come out the gate giving you #s better than luol deng...than hes being very underated by draft...hes the next paul george huh?

And as a team we dont need defense...we need offense in the front court asap...
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#224 » by sfam » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:47 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
sfam wrote:
linguini8 wrote:I personally think Porter will bust hard and would choose the first lineup if I'm trying to win now. Not because I'm a Bucks fan. I just see him being a poor man's Tayshaun Prince at best. I think Bennett will bust as well.

You realize that you are one of the very very few who thinks Porter will Bust hard, don't you? The vast majority look at Porter as a low risk to be a solid starter but aren't as thrilled about his upside. If Porter just hits the low risk threshold, he will already equal Ersan, but on a better salary.


Do you think Porter is a 30 MPG, 17/9/.570 TS% kind of player? Not saying that with any kind of snark, I'm just curious to hear what you think he'll be in the pros.

I actually prefer Bennett, but in no way do I think Porter will be a Major Bust. I would guess he will be a 15/7/3 kind of player with a fairly high shooting percentage who also does the little things. I wouldn't call that kind of player a major bust.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#225 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:49 pm

I don't think he'll be a bust either. Prince seems like a fair comparison.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#226 » by sfam » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:49 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
montestewart wrote:
deneem4 wrote:Ersan is a guaranteed 15/8 in 27mins
Nene off the bench for pf/c is a guaranteed 15/7

Ilyasova has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Nene has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Why are either of these outcomes guaranteed?


Once Skiles was fired:

43 games:
30 mpg
16.1 ppg
8.2 rpg
46% 3FG%
57.6 TS%


The stretch wasn't unprecedented. Last year he finally got consistent minutes because injuries hit the team hard. Final three months of the season:

40 games
30 mpg
15.5 points
9.7 rpg
.471 3FG%
.601 TS%


That's who he is as a player.

And you want him gone really bad, as opposed to Henson...
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#227 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:50 pm

Um, yes?

I want to tank. I don't see any way to do that without moving our good players for inexperienced youth.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#228 » by sfam » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:52 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:And like I said, I certainly don't blame any of you for passing on the deal. If I were running the team I'd add another young piece too. I said as much on my board when talking about your situation:

ReasonablySober wrote:Personally, if I were in the Wizards shoes I'd take Zeller or Len and continue adding to the young core. They could (and should) be a playoff team next season. Just keep adding young core pieces around the same age.

But I don't know the situation over there in Washington. If they have a mandate to win as many games as possible next season in an effort to appease Wall, then I don't think they could get a better player than Ilyasova with that pick. I think he adds five wins to that team and would look outstanding with Wall getting him the ball on pick and rolls and kick outs.

So you're basically saying that if the Wizards have a mandate to do something dumb in order to keep Wall, than this trade is a good deal. Again, if Okafor is included, I don't see us winning more games. This makes the trade bad in the short and long term.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#229 » by sfam » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:53 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:Um, yes?

I want to tank. I don't see any way to do that without moving our good players for inexperienced youth.

I would just point out that your board is not congruent on this. Some want to do the trade to excel in the playoffs.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#230 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:56 pm

sfam wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:Um, yes?

I want to tank. I don't see any way to do that without moving our good players for inexperienced youth.

I would just point out that your board is not congruent on this. Some want to do the trade to excel in the playoffs.


Maybe. But I don't think you'll find any of the long term respected posters who realistically believe the Bucks will make the playoffs next season, barring some out of no-where vet signing or trade. It's accepted that trading Ersan for a pick will make the Bucks worse. Whether they follow it up with a win-now move is secondary to the discussion.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#231 » by verbal8 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:02 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
sfam wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:Um, yes?

I want to tank. I don't see any way to do that without moving our good players for inexperienced youth.

I would just point out that your board is not congruent on this. Some want to do the trade to excel in the playoffs.


Maybe. But I don't think you'll find any of the long term respected posters who realistically believe the Bucks will make the playoffs next season, barring some out of no-where vet signing or trade. It's accepted that trading Ersan for a pick will make the Bucks worse. Whether they follow it up with a win-now move is secondary to the discussion.


Do the Bucks have a preference for Okafor or Ariza?

If the plan for the Bucks is to tank. What about the 37th pick and the Wizards 2014 1st(top ten protected), rather than the 3rd pick. In addition to those assets, an expiring vet(Ariza or Okafor) could likely be traded for an additional pick to a play-off team in need of depth near the deadline.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#232 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:06 pm

sfam wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:And like I said, I certainly don't blame any of you for passing on the deal. If I were running the team I'd add another young piece too. I said as much on my board when talking about your situation:

ReasonablySober wrote:Personally, if I were in the Wizards shoes I'd take Zeller or Len and continue adding to the young core. They could (and should) be a playoff team next season. Just keep adding young core pieces around the same age.

But I don't know the situation over there in Washington. If they have a mandate to win as many games as possible next season in an effort to appease Wall, then I don't think they could get a better player than Ilyasova with that pick. I think he adds five wins to that team and would look outstanding with Wall getting him the ball on pick and rolls and kick outs.

So you're basically saying that if the Wizards have a mandate to do something dumb in order to keep Wall, than this trade is a good deal. Again, if Okafor is included, I don't see us winning more games. This makes the trade bad in the short and long term.


It's not difficult to see exactly what I'm saying. If the Wizards want to win over the next three or four years, I believe Ilyasova gives them the better chance than the #3 pick.

But if you understand my philosophy on team building, and I think I've made it clear if you have even an average ability to infer, it's accumulating a number of young players, losing a lot of games and hoping to hit on at least two franchise changing players. The difficulty lies in finding a franchise player before your young talent improves to the point where you no longer are able to find that guy in the draft. That's exactly what has happened to the Bucks. In an ideal world they would tank, hit a home run on a franchise player, then add your Sanders, Ilyasovas and Hensons. That's a contender.

But to put that perspective towards your team, I think Washington greatly screwed up by adding Nene and Okafor. I'd have gone with Wall, Beal and C-minus players around them until they added one more potential superstar. Now it's hard to imagine them being bad enough in '14 to hit on that guy. Your hopes rest on Wall being a top five player. It could happen, but I doubt it.

So the question becomes do you roll with Wall being a stud and adding the best possible players around him? Hope for some legit success this season? Or do you try and toe the line of win-now and win-later, something that's awfully tough to pull off.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#233 » by montestewart » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:08 pm

deneem4 wrote:
montestewart wrote:
deneem4 wrote:Ersan is a guaranteed 15/8 in 27mins
Nene off the bench for pf/c is a guaranteed 15/7

Ilyasova has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Nene has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Why are either of these outcomes guaranteed?


Nene put up 14.5 when traded to washington in 2012 thts in 25 mins
Nene coming off the bench makes him top scoring option with tht squad, especially if he switches up between pf and c
If you dont think nene can giv us 15 why not trade him for humpries who posted dbl dbls his prior seasons????

Illyasova was only played 25mins as a buck, he wouldve averaged it this season if he actually played in the beginning..
He still put up 13 playing with the 2 of the top 10 hogs in the nba...

Not to mention the john wall effect on shooters


Also nba defense is wayyyyyyyyyy more advanced than college...sf is the toughest position in the league

If you think porter going to come out the gate giving you #s better than luol deng...than hes being very underated by draft...hes the next paul george huh?

And as a team we dont need defense...we need offense in the front court asap...

Nene's numbers are in 11 games, 6 as a starter, and your Ilyasova numbers are wrong. Some other stuff (John Wall effect, shoulda traded for Humphries, etc)...

Ilyasova's good, but two second halves of a season don't discount the rest of his career. I've seen his game logs and monthly totals. Pencilling either of them in for those per game totals is speculation, not a guarantee.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#234 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:08 pm

verbal8 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
sfam wrote:I would just point out that your board is not congruent on this. Some want to do the trade to excel in the playoffs.


Maybe. But I don't think you'll find any of the long term respected posters who realistically believe the Bucks will make the playoffs next season, barring some out of no-where vet signing or trade. It's accepted that trading Ersan for a pick will make the Bucks worse. Whether they follow it up with a win-now move is secondary to the discussion.


Do the Bucks have a preference for Okafor or Ariza?

If the plan for the Bucks is to tank. What about the 37th pick and the Wizards 2014 1st(top ten protected), rather than the 3rd pick. In addition to those assets, an expiring vet(Ariza or Okafor) could likely be traded for an additional pick to a play-off team in need of depth near the deadline.


It would certainly help with losing games, but that pick would be in the late teens at the lowest. It's just really terrible value.

For the record, I'd probably move Ilyasova for any pick in the top ten. I don't think a lot separates the top 11 or so players.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#235 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:10 pm

montestewart wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Ilyasova has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Nene has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Why are either of these outcomes guaranteed?


Nene put up 14.5 when traded to washington in 2012 thts in 25 mins
Nene coming off the bench makes him top scoring option with tht squad, especially if he switches up between pf and c
If you dont think nene can giv us 15 why not trade him for humpries who posted dbl dbls his prior seasons????

Illyasova was only played 25mins as a buck, he wouldve averaged it this season if he actually played in the beginning..
He still put up 13 playing with the 2 of the top 10 hogs in the nba...

Not to mention the john wall effect on shooters


Also nba defense is wayyyyyyyyyy more advanced than college...sf is the toughest position in the league

If you think porter going to come out the gate giving you #s better than luol deng...than hes being very underated by draft...hes the next paul george huh?

And as a team we dont need defense...we need offense in the front court asap...

Nene's numbers are in 11 games, 6 as a starter, and your Ilyasova numbers are wrong. Some other stuff (John Wall effect, shoulda traded for Humphries, etc)...

Ilyasova's good, but two second halves of a season don't discount the rest of his career. I've seen his game logs and monthly totals. Pencilling either of them in for those per game totals is speculation, not a guarantee.


His per-36 numbers for his career are 16/9.5/.535 TS%. And as I mentioned in the past, his PER-36 actually got better in the last two years when his minutes went up.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#236 » by deneem4 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:16 pm

take okafor but giv us a 2014 pick...with okafor gone we can trade with the mavs for shawn marion n the mavs pick...
Trade ariza
Sign nazi
Draft shabazz with bucks pick
Draft Michael carter with dallas pick


Wall/michael carter/satorsky
Beal/shabazz
Webster/marion/vesley
Ersan/seraphin/booker
Nazi/nene/
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#237 » by deneem4 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:23 pm

montestewart wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Ilyasova has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Nene has never averaged 15 ppg in his career.
Why are either of these outcomes guaranteed?


Nene put up 14.5 when traded to washington in 2012 thts in 25 mins
Nene coming off the bench makes him top scoring option with tht squad, especially if he switches up between pf and c
If you dont think nene can giv us 15 why not trade him for humpries who posted dbl dbls his prior seasons????

Illyasova was only played 25mins as a buck, he wouldve averaged it this season if he actually played in the beginning..
He still put up 13 playing with the 2 of the top 10 hogs in the nba...

Not to mention the john wall effect on shooters


Also nba defense is wayyyyyyyyyy more advanced than college...sf is the toughest position in the league

If you think porter going to come out the gate giving you #s better than luol deng...than hes being very underated by draft...hes the next paul george huh?

And as a team we dont need defense...we need offense in the front court asap...

Nene's numbers are in 11 games, 6 as a starter, and your Ilyasova numbers are wrong. Some other stuff (John Wall effect, shoulda traded for Humphries, etc)...

Ilyasova's good, but two second halves of a season don't discount the rest of his career. I've seen his game logs and monthly totals. Pencilling either of them in for those per game totals is speculation, not a guarantee.


Kris humpries posted double doubles the last 2 Seasons before this 1
Look up 3pt for our shooters when john wall is on the floor...please and tell me there is no john wall effect

Ersan played an average of 27mins last season, and averaged 12..infact look at his numbers with redick as pg since Iim wrong

Ersan is also a famous actor name james franco
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#238 » by linguini8 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:31 pm

TGW wrote:Have fun with Illy next season. The Wizards aren't doing that one.

By the way, some of these posts from Bucks fans are ridiculous.

Ersan is a stud. He is the best shooting big man in the game.


Uh really dude? There's someone by the name of Dirk Nowitski who probably shoots the ball a bit better than Ilyasova.

Makes you wonder why would you trade a "stud" for a pick in a crappy draft. :lol:


Um, Ersan is definitely a better shooter than Dirk at this stage of their careers. Dirk is almost 35 years old and has 1 or 2 years left. Apparently you didn't read the entire post because I clearly explained why Milwaukee would be seeking to trade Ersan.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#239 » by linguini8 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:33 pm

TGW wrote:After Dirk? Who really cares. There's only a handful of perimeter oriented bigs in the NBA now. Dirk, Ilyasova, Bargnani, Bonner, Jamison, Anderson, Novak...all of these guys except for Dirk are role players off the bench. A jumpshooting bigman is not a piece you build a core around (except when you have a special player like Dirk who can create his own offense). You certainly don't use a lottery pick to get one.

Bargnani is going to be amnestied in a few weeks. Just get him for pennies on the dollar. It would be better than wasting a draft pick on big man who can shoot threes.

Ersan is not a role player off the bench.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#240 » by linguini8 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:39 pm

sfam wrote:
linguini8 wrote:I personally think Porter will bust hard and would choose the first lineup if I'm trying to win now. Not because I'm a Bucks fan. I just see him being a poor man's Tayshaun Prince at best. I think Bennett will bust as well.

You realize that you are one of the very very few who thinks Porter will Bust hard, don't you? The vast majority look at Porter as a low risk to be a solid starter but aren't as thrilled about his upside. If Porter just hits the low risk threshold, he will already equal Ersan, but on a better salary.


That's fine. Which is why I talked about both situations in my post and told everyone that I'd understand your decision. However your board thinks Ersan is a 24 minute bench player who can shoot 3's. Which is just not the case at all.

If Porter hits "the low risk threshold" he won't be anywhere near equal Ersan. Porter will be lucky to be as good as Tayshaun Prince in the NBA. By that I mean a 14/4/4 player. A player who in his prime is equal to or less than Ersan entering his prime. He also will only cost $3million less per year since his rookie salary will be huge compared to most rookie salaries(3rd pick afterall).

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