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#3 for Ilyasova being discussed

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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#281 » by ReasonablySober » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:24 pm

Dat2U wrote:The only Ilyasova trade I'd consider (not including Sanders or Henson) involving the 3rd pick would be Ilyasova & the an unprotected '14 pick for this year's 3rd and Ernie's Kids (Vesely, Seraphin & Singleton) which Milwaukee would not likely do.

Ilyasova is a good player but he's a 25-30 minute a night guy in this league. I wouldn't feel comfortable trading a top 3 pick for a less than full time type player without more incentive.

I also can''t get my head around giving up a high pick for a guy we could have simply signed last year. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'd honestly just rather keep the pick and find another way to acquire a stretch or pick & pop 4.


I think it's an interesting idea. If I were running the organization I probably don't do it because my goal is accumulating losses and a high pick in '14.

But Herb Kohl is notorious for his win-now mandate. If that's still in effect I would expect the Bucks to overpay Redick and one of Jennings or Redick this summer. It wouldn't shock me if they threw the max at Bynum, Iguodala or Josh Smith. It would disgust me but it would probably be enough to get the Bucks between 38-45 wins.

If that's the direction Kohl intends to go then sure, I'd move the '14.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#282 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:35 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
nate33 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:It's not difficult to see exactly what I'm saying. If the Wizards want to win over the next three or four years, I believe Ilyasova gives them the better chance than the #3 pick.

Ilyasova would certainly help the Wizards win next year, and probably over the next 2 years, but there's no reason at all to believe that it's a given that he'll help the Wizards 3 and 4 years down the road.

Us fans are a little nervous because we know EG's job is on the line and he may be desperate enough to make a move with only the next year or two in mind, but we understand that our true window of opportunity is realistically 3-5 years down the road. We want a player that will still be part of the core then.


Totally understandable. That's how I'd want my team run. But it makes keeping Nene and Okafor around a bit odd. I'd be moving them for long term assets. But that gets back to the point about showing Wall you're committed to winning now, which is a dangerous thing to do for reasons you state.


RS, I agree with virtually everything you have posted about Ilyasova, the Wizards regarding both Nene and Okafor, and the strength of the top-11 picks in this draft.

Unless Okafor wants less than $10 M to be a great backup C, he needs to be shopped at some point this season. If he opts in his expiring contract makes him valuable in attaining long term assets. Nene is too injured to project 3-5 years forward. The way he played last season was well below what Nene did after the McGee trade. I disliked both moves--although EG got a tremendous amount of good team chemistry with desired veteran leadership (but at what nate has correctly called opportunity costs). Those players need to win now and mesh with the young core of Wall and Beal long-term. How?

FWIW, I think trading could help a lot if Porter is not the pick.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#283 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:45 pm

nuposse04 wrote:Okafor doesn't need long term money thrown at him and my guess is they'll give Nene one last year to prove he can stay relatively healthy before trying to do anything drastic. I seriously don't believe Ersan would be better then any of : Noel, Porter, Len, Bennett, Ola, Ben Mcl, Burke 4 years from now. Ersan is a solid player, but his game doesn't lead me to believe he is going to significantly improve upon anything he does right now.

My biggest gripe with him is that he won't be AS useful in the playoffs. Unless Wall truly becomes a top 5 player he won't have as many open looks when we need him most, and he's fairly pedestrian in doing anything off the dribble. If we could trade anything but the 3rd, Wall/Beal for him, sure..yeah I'm game...but anymore and we're curtailing our chances of building a contender. It would be a shortsighted move and a long term negative move for us.


I think I would prefer acquiring Ilyasova and a player at 15, like Dieng or Olynyk or Franklin or Bullock; who I believe will contribute right away.

If the Wizards get Okafor and Webster/Ariza to opt in/resign, and the team stays healthy; the will make the playoffs. Ilyasova will be Mike Miller/Kawhi Leonard useful with threes and boards. Wall is going to be the man if healthy. Ilyasova will open up the middle. Shot making is what the team needs most.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#284 » by Wizardspride » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:56 pm

From the Bucks board
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1253938&start=930



Talked with someone with pretty good knowledge of both organizations recently. Kind of what i expected which is dont get your hopes up.

Said they (wiz) heard about the ilyasova rumor, but have no idea where it came from. They might be interested in dealing back but not that far. 5-6 picks at most, and that's only if Porter is not there. They are locked in on him for a multitude of reasons. They really like their front court as is, and are committed to rebuilding with youth.

Also, I loled pretty hard when he told me that if there was any substance to the rumor he'd do everything in his power to talk them out of it. Not a big Ersan fan.

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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#285 » by nuposse04 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:58 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
nuposse04 wrote:Okafor doesn't need long term money thrown at him and my guess is they'll give Nene one last year to prove he can stay relatively healthy before trying to do anything drastic. I seriously don't believe Ersan would be better then any of : Noel, Porter, Len, Bennett, Ola, Ben Mcl, Burke 4 years from now. Ersan is a solid player, but his game doesn't lead me to believe he is going to significantly improve upon anything he does right now.

My biggest gripe with him is that he won't be AS useful in the playoffs. Unless Wall truly becomes a top 5 player he won't have as many open looks when we need him most, and he's fairly pedestrian in doing anything off the dribble. If we could trade anything but the 3rd, Wall/Beal for him, sure..yeah I'm game...but anymore and we're curtailing our chances of building a contender. It would be a shortsighted move and a long term negative move for us.


I think I would prefer acquiring Ilyasova and a player at 15, like Dieng or Olynyk or Franklin or Bullock; who I believe will contribute right away.

If the Wizards get Okafor and Webster/Ariza to opt in/resign, and the team stays healthy; the will make the playoffs. Ilyasova will be Mike Miller/Kawhi Leonard useful with threes and boards. Wall is going to be the man if healthy. Ilyasova will open up the middle. Shot making is what the team needs most.


But the original trade proposed has us sending Okafor out...i don't see us being able to draft anyone at the 15 spot who would be an above average starting center in the NBA. I don't think Adams will be there and I think people overrate Dieng just a tad. Plus, you have to remember, it is EG making the pick at 15..not any of us. Look at his track record with the wiz with picks in the 10-21 range. I guess Seraphin is the only guy that he drafted in that range we still have...but that's cause hes cheap and still has a bit of potential.

I can't give weight to the 15th pick cause I know that baboon will mess it up.

I also don't believe we can win long term with Webster as a full time starting 3. He's an excellent role player but I don't think he's the rebounder/passer that Porter can be for us. I'd rather explore a trade with MINN to move down than this one. At least at the 9 spot we should be able to net Adams or Olynyk.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#286 » by Dat2U » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:06 pm

Wizardspride wrote:From the Bucks board
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1253938&start=930



Talked with someone with pretty good knowledge of both organizations recently. Kind of what i expected which is dont get your hopes up.

Said they (wiz) heard about the ilyasova rumor, but have no idea where it came from. They might be interested in dealing back but not that far. 5-6 picks at most, and that's only if Porter is not there. They are locked in on him for a multitude of reasons. They really like their front court as is, and are committed to rebuilding with youth.

Also, I loled pretty hard when he told me that if there was any substance to the rumor he'd do everything in his power to talk them out of it. Not a big Ersan fan.


Good to hear.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#287 » by nate33 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:21 pm

Wizardspride wrote:From the Bucks board
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1253938&start=930



Talked with someone with pretty good knowledge of both organizations recently. Kind of what i expected which is dont get your hopes up.

Said they (wiz) heard about the ilyasova rumor, but have no idea where it came from. They might be interested in dealing back but not that far. 5-6 picks at most, and that's only if Porter is not there. They are locked in on him for a multitude of reasons. They really like their front court as is, and are committed to rebuilding with youth.

Also, I loled pretty hard when he told me that if there was any substance to the rumor he'd do everything in his power to talk them out of it. Not a big Ersan fan.

Just what I expected.

I knew that Okafor talk was just wildly out of line with EG's MO. And I also knew that Ilyasova alone isn't worth the #3 pick. EG can't afford to replay the Mike Miller fiasco. It's the biggest blemish of his career. The entire proposal made no sense whatsoever other than the fact that we could use a stretch four. It looks like someone took Wall's request for a stretch four and let their imagination run wild.

I like the talk that we're willing to trade down a few spots, but only a few spots. It means we are keeping our options open if Porter isn't there, but we're not going to sacrifice a potential building block piece just for a short term gain. It's simply a recognition that the top guys on the board in the 3-6 range (McLemore, Oladipo, Burke) aren't ideal fits so we could trade down a bit and still get the guy we want. I could see trading down to the 6-9 range if we land a starting-caliber stretch four, and then drafting a combo guard like McCollum or a big with future potential like Zeller or Len.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#288 » by fishercob » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:53 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:From the Bucks board
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1253938&start=930



Talked with someone with pretty good knowledge of both organizations recently. Kind of what i expected which is dont get your hopes up.

Said they (wiz) heard about the ilyasova rumor, but have no idea where it came from. They might be interested in dealing back but not that far. 5-6 picks at most, and that's only if Porter is not there. They are locked in on him for a multitude of reasons. They really like their front court as is, and are committed to rebuilding with youth.

Also, I loled pretty hard when he told me that if there was any substance to the rumor he'd do everything in his power to talk them out of it. Not a big Ersan fan.


Good to hear.


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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#289 » by Dat2U » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:58 pm

Hey it's Ernie!!! How can you expect me to be levelheaded bro??? :lol:
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#290 » by Deeptu McPullup » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:03 pm

And there was much rejoicing in the kingdom!!!

I'd elaborate but I'm on a tablet typing the old fashioned way after an ergonomic snafu has me spending as little time at my desk as possible.

Best news in a while!

I'll be back posting in a few, but lurking till then.....
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#291 » by fishercob » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:12 pm

Deeptu McPullup wrote:And there was much rejoicing in the kingdom!!!

I'd elaborate but I'm on a tablet typing the old fashioned way after an ergonomic snafu has me spending as little time at my desk as possible.

Best news in a while!

I'll be back posting in a few, but lurking till then.....


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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#292 » by closg00 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:32 pm

Wizardspride wrote:From the Bucks board
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1253938&start=930



Talked with someone with pretty good knowledge of both organizations recently. Kind of what i expected which is dont get your hopes up.

Said they (wiz) heard about the ilyasova rumor, but have no idea where it came from. They might be interested in dealing back but not that far. 5-6 picks at most, and that's only if Porter is not there. They are locked in on him for a multitude of reasons. They really like their front court as is, and are committed to rebuilding with youth.

Also, I loled pretty hard when he told me that if there was any substance to the rumor he'd do everything in his power to talk them out of it. Not a big Ersan fan.


:o Anyone else alarmed by this? This could not be true that the Wizards "really like their front court as is" Okafor expiring and no competent depth? Makes me wonder if this reference is shifting-back to the Bucks liking their front court.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#293 » by Ruzious » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:34 pm

fishercob wrote:
Deeptu McPullup wrote:And there was much rejoicing in the kingdom!!!

I'd elaborate but I'm on a tablet typing the old fashioned way after an ergonomic snafu has me spending as little time at my desk as possible.

Best news in a while!

I'll be back posting in a few, but lurking till then.....


Where are you again? India? Malaysia? Uranus?

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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#294 » by Upper Decker » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:41 pm

closg00 wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:From the Bucks board
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1253938&start=930



Talked with someone with pretty good knowledge of both organizations recently. Kind of what i expected which is dont get your hopes up.

Said they (wiz) heard about the ilyasova rumor, but have no idea where it came from. They might be interested in dealing back but not that far. 5-6 picks at most, and that's only if Porter is not there. They are locked in on him for a multitude of reasons. They really like their front court as is, and are committed to rebuilding with youth.

Also, I loled pretty hard when he told me that if there was any substance to the rumor he'd do everything in his power to talk them out of it. Not a big Ersan fan.


:o Anyone else alarmed by this? This could not be true that the Wizards "really like their front court as is" Okafor expiring and no competent depth? Makes me wonder if this reference is shifting-back to the Bucks liking their front court.


This was my real take away as well. Basically what this mean is GMEG and staff are committed to their kids. I'd expect the big man rotation to look something like this:

CE: Okafor, Seraphin, (vet minimum)
PF: Nene, Booker/Vesely, Singleton (2nd rounder)

Honestly I'd cut bait with Singleton. I'm sure the Wiz could give him away to a team with cap space for a phantom 2nd round pick with heavy productions. He's not worth his roster spot, frankly, neither is Vesely, but no team will absorb him at his salary for nothing.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#295 » by nate33 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:01 pm

Upper Decker wrote:Basically what this mean is GMEG and staff are committed to their kids. I'd expect the big man rotation to look something like this:

CE: Okafor, Seraphin, (vet minimum)
PF: Nene, Booker/Vesely, Singleton (2nd rounder)

Honestly I'd cut bait with Singleton. I'm sure the Wiz could give him away to a team with cap space for a phantom 2nd round pick with heavy productions. He's not worth his roster spot, frankly, neither is Vesely, but no team will absorb him at his salary for nothing.

I think they still believe in Seraphin and are hoping for a big year from him. Maybe that's misguided, maybe not. I don't have a problem with them giving Seraphin one more year to prove himself.

I can't believe they view Booker as anything more than a nice bench player. I'm sure they like him, but they're not projecting him as our starter of the future.

They can't possibly think Singleton has much upside other than as a journeyman defender who sticks around the league as an 11th man. They may retain him for that 4th year, but only because he's not really much more expensive than the vet minimum guy that would replace him.

I have no idea what they think of Vesely. I'm sure they're frustrated with his development, but I don't know if they are still in love with his "upside" or if they're quietly acknowledging that he's a bust of epic proportions. We'll find out more about that at the end of the summer when they decide to pick up his 4th year or not.

At any rate, "they really like their front court" might only mean that they like the combo of Okafor, Nene, and feel that Seraphin is still capable of taking on a bigger role as he matures. I don't think that's such an inaccurate position to take. They do need at least one PF who is a knockdown shooter though. And I don't think that's Booker.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#296 » by Ayt » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:51 pm

JWizmentality wrote:Empty stats on a bad team. Slow, not athletic, crappy defense. He's the Euro Andray Blatche. Follow the OKC model and build through the DRAFT!!! At this point I'm starting to regret ever getting the 3rd pick, what's the sense when you have to go through the stress of watching an idiot give it away.


He's the opposite of Blatche. He's hard nosed and always plays all out. He's limited athletically, but he is very productive because he's a lights out shooter (#2 in 3pt% last year, #4 this year), he plays very hard and plays smart (almost never turns it over, knows where he needs to be on D), and he has excellent length (his standing reach is 9-1.5, Nene 9-1, Okafor 9-2.5).

Think about those percentages from 3. In 2011-12, only Novak had a higher percentage. This past season, only Calderon, Korver, and Curry had a higher percentage. His combined percentage the last two years is .448. Stephan Curry currently has the 2nd highest career 3pt% at .446. Kerr is the leader at .454. Third place goes to Hubert Davis at .441. In other words, Ersan has been drilling threes at an absurd rate for two full seasons. It is even more impressive because big men rarely populate the top 10 in 3pt%. In both 2011-12 and 2012-13, Ers was the only big in the top 10.

He's a very solid rebounder because he plays very hard and he has that great length. His total rebounding percentage this past season was 13.9%. For the sake of comparison, Nene's was 13.6%. He's a player that is productive due to his length, his shooting ability, his high basketball IQ, and his all around scrapitude. Ersan does not back down from anyone. He can also murder teams with his jumper.

He definitely is not a crappy defender. I'd say he's average. He's solid as a one on one post defender against PFs. He works very hard, he bangs, and he has those crazy long arms to contest. Teams certainly aren't going to consistently abuse him in the post. He's not big enough to deal with centers with an offensive game, but he can easily defend all the centers currently in the league that have no post game and keep them off the boards. He's exceptional at taking a charge (actually the best big in the league last year). But, as mentioned above, he's not some softy. He takes charges because it is smart, but he's very scrappy overall defensively and on the glass. He's not a big shot blocking threat because he has like a 28 inch vert. As a help defender, he relies on his smarts, hustle, and his length.

He was terrible to start the year last season. The first month was abysmal. He admitted in an article that he felt pressure after signing his new contract. Skiles benched him after 11 games. He blew up after that.

As a bench player:

Image

Note that he was only playing 23 MPG but was still putting up 10-6 with an insane 49% 3pt%. It is kinda, sorta awesome to run a pick and roll with a PF that can shoot like that. Unfortunately, our PGs suck, but you guys have Wall.

The first thing Boylan did after braindead POS Skiles was fired was insert Ersan back in the starting lineup. After that, this is what he posted:

Image

He may be a "role player", but he will be Wall's best friend if he is actually traded to Washington. His shooting in the pick and roll game has a massive impact on how teams defend. He also plays very hard defensively and works his ass of on the boards. Despite not being much of an athlete, he also creates a fair amount of TOs via steals, blocks, and charges.

Beyond the handful of elite PFs, Ersan could easily be the best possible fit with Wall. His ability to drill open threes and long range twos in the P&R game (while basically never turning it over) opens up all kinds of things in the pick and roll game. If the ball is passed to him in the P&R and a shot or move isn't there due to good D, he would generally immediately pass the ball back to the PG and set another pick going the other way. In other words, he knows exactly how to utilize the P&R game.

According to Synergy, Ersan averaged 1.04 PPP as the P&R man. That is elite. Garnett is a great P&R man, and he averaged .98 PPP last year. Duncan, .93. Aldridge, .95. For the sake of comparison, as a team you averaged .84 PPP in P&R situations (28th in the NBA). You averaged .88 PPP overall as a team in all situations. The ability Ersan has to drill shots is huge. Having a 4 man who is a top 5 three point shooter who also knows how to run the pick and roll game is gigantic. Beyond just Wall and Ersan, in the P&R game the D will need to try to balance stopping Wall while leaving Ersan open. If they use help defenders to shade Ersan, he's smart enough to quickly make a pass to the man who is now open due to an overplay defensively.

Having a guy like Ersan would open up all kinds of things offensively. If the lineup was Wall/Beal/Webster/Ersan/Nene you'd have very good to great shooters at the 2, 3, and 4, which would open up all kinds of options for Wall. Even Nene can stick a J.

Beal shot .386 from three (despite starting out very poorly, 27% in his first 26 games, 48% in his last 30). Webster, .422. Ersan, .444. Good luck containing Wall with those guys spacing the floor. And, as mentioned, Ersan is a great pick and roll player.

Honestly, Wall and Ersan would be exceptional together. The entire Wiz offense would take a major step forward with a PF like Ersan.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#297 » by Ayt » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:20 pm

To sum all of that up, Ersan could easily be an All-Star playing with a better PG. An exceptional shooter like Ersan would murder with a Chris Paul. He could also easily murder with Wall. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he averaged 18+/9+ and made the All-Star team if he did join the Wizards.

He wouldn't be a superstar, but he could easily be a David West level player for you guys. He's also still relatively young and on a very reasonable contract.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#298 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:31 pm

Ayt wrote:To sum all of that up, Ersan could easily be an All-Star playing with a better PG. An exceptional shooter like Ersan would murder with a Chris Paul. He could also easily murder with Wall. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he averaged 18+/9+ and made the All-Star team if he did join the Wizards.

He wouldn't be a superstar, but he could easily be a David West level player for you guys. He's also still relatively young and on a very reasonable contract.


Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison made an all star game thanks to Gilbert Arenas. Ilyasova can do the same in a lineup starting Wall, Beal, Ariza, and Okafor/Nene, and with Webster as sixth man. Caldwell-Pope, Franklin, Olynyk, Wolters, Crabbe could each be special energizers with a second unit if their rights are acquired.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#299 » by jimij » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:53 pm

Ayt wrote:To sum all of that up, Ersan could easily be an All-Star playing with a better PG. An exceptional shooter like Ersan would murder with a Chris Paul. He could also easily murder with Wall. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he averaged 18+/9+ and made the All-Star team if he did join the Wizards.

He wouldn't be a superstar, but he could easily be a David West level player for you guys. He's also still relatively young and on a very reasonable contract.


Honestly I think most Wiz fans agree with this about Ersan. Many of us wanted them to pursue him in free agency last year and instead got stuck with the Okariza trade. That said, the vast majority of Wiz fans also don't think Ersan is worth giving up the 3rd pick for. There will be plenty of time to add stretch four without giving up that much and we still believe that Wall can make a number of players better in that position so it just doesn't make sense to give up the pick for him.
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Re: #3 for Ilyasova being discussed 

Post#300 » by nate33 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:36 am

jimij wrote:
Ayt wrote:To sum all of that up, Ersan could easily be an All-Star playing with a better PG. An exceptional shooter like Ersan would murder with a Chris Paul. He could also easily murder with Wall. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he averaged 18+/9+ and made the All-Star team if he did join the Wizards.

He wouldn't be a superstar, but he could easily be a David West level player for you guys. He's also still relatively young and on a very reasonable contract.


Honestly I think most Wiz fans agree with this about Ersan. Many of us wanted them to pursue him in free agency last year and instead got stuck with the Okariza trade. That said, the vast majority of Wiz fans also don't think Ersan is worth giving up the 3rd pick for. There will be plenty of time to add stretch four without giving up that much and we still believe that Wall can make a number of players better in that position so it just doesn't make sense to give up the pick for him.

This.

Ilyasova could well turn out to be an All-Star caliber player in the right situation, but the fact is, he ISN'T right now. We're not going to pay the price to acquire him as if he was already an All Star. If Milwaukee thinks he is an All Star, then keep him.

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