Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 2

[montestewart]

Gregg Popovich: American players don’t work as hard as foreign players

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daAQX?utm_ ... mpaign=nba

Let's trade them Vesely and Seraphin.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Gregg Popovich: American players don’t work as hard as foreign players

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daAQX?utm_ ... mpaign=nba

Let's trade them Vesely and Seraphin.

That organization turned Danny Green and Gary Neal into giant killers. Give them Seraphin and Vesely, monte.

Popovich can turn those "chumps" into "champs."

They can have both those players for future considerations.

[LyricalRico]

A couple points from WireTap: LAC apparently was open to trading for PP/KG at the deadline, and now there is mutual interest between them and Doc Rivers. Lots of smoke, could there be a fire? If LAC is all in, could be an interesting scenario for them.

[verbal8]

A couple points from WireTap: LAC apparently was open to trading for PP/KG at the deadline, and now there is mutual interest between them and Doc Rivers. Lots of smoke, could there be a fire? If LAC is all in, could be an interesting scenario for them.

It would make a lot of sense. It probably costs them Bledsoe to do the deal, but maybe they can send out Bulter rather than Jordan.

[LyricalRico]

A couple points from WireTap: LAC apparently was open to trading for PP/KG at the deadline, and now there is mutual interest between them and Doc Rivers. Lots of smoke, could there be a fire? If LAC is all in, could be an interesting scenario for them.

It would make a lot of sense. It probably costs them Bledsoe to do the deal, but maybe they can send out Bulter rather than Jordan.

What about adding a third team?

Celtics trade: Pierce, Garnett, Melo
Celtics receive: Jordan, Afflalo, #25/51

Clippers trade: Jordan, Butler, Bledsoe, and #25
Clippers receive: Garnett, Pierce, and Melo

Magic trade: Afflalo and #51
Magic receive: Butler, Bledsoe

Boston gets two young starters and a pick, LAC goes all-in and should be able to re-sign CP3 while still having the non-tax MLE available, and Orlando upgrades at PG to potentially have a Bledsoe and McLemore/Oladipo backcourt.

[verbal8]

A couple points from WireTap: LAC apparently was open to trading for PP/KG at the deadline, and now there is mutual interest between them and Doc Rivers. Lots of smoke, could there be a fire? If LAC is all in, could be an interesting scenario for them.

It would make a lot of sense. It probably costs them Bledsoe to do the deal, but maybe they can send out Bulter rather than Jordan.

What about adding a third team?

Celtics trade: Pierce, Garnett, Melo
Celtics receive: Jordan, Afflalo, #25/51

Clippers trade: Jordan, Butler, Bledsoe, and #25
Clippers receive: Garnett, Pierce, and Melo

Magic trade: Afflalo and #51
Magic receive: Butler, Bledsoe

Boston gets two young starters and a pick, LAC goes all-in and should be able to re-sign CP3 while still having the non-tax MLE available, and Orlando upgrades at PG to potentially have a Bledsoe and McLemore/Oladipo backcourt.

I don't think the Clippers want to pay Pierce $15 million. The really slick move for the Celtics would be to trade Paul Pierce for junk expiring contracts and an incentive. They could take on up to 21 million, but the team sending them would only be on the hook for $5 million to buy out Pierce. It also would be very easy to add Vince Carter or Thomas Robinson into one of these deals.

[Illuminaire]

Pierce has an odd contract. If he is released before the 30th he only costs his team five million, not fifteen.

[fishercob]

Gregg Popovich: American players don’t work as hard as foreign players

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daAQX?utm_ ... mpaign=nba

It is interesting that pretty much every player on the Spurs had some foreign experience. Duncan and Leonard are the only guys playing much that don't.

It's something to hear this from a guy that attended to Air Force academy. It is meaningful for hoops, but really has cultural implications beyond basketball. While Duncan didn't play much overseas, he didn't grow up here. Of the Spurs' American players, none were "The Man" at big time programs. The closest was Leonard, and most casual sports fans couldn't tell you SDSU's mascot. Green came through a storied UNC program but he was a complementary player in college as well. Neal came essentially from nowhere.

The clear message here -- and one that will undoubtedly be ignored -- is that we are teaching the game the wrong way here. The pursuits of the individual are valued above those of the community.

[doclinkin]

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daAQX?utm_ ... mpaign=nba

It is interesting that pretty much every player on the Spurs had some foreign experience. Duncan and Leonard are the only guys playing much that don't.

It's something to hear this from a guy that attended to Air Force academy. It is meaningful for hoops, but really has cultural implications beyond basketball. While Duncan didn't play much overseas, he didn't grow up here. Of the Spurs' American players, none were "The Man" at big time programs. The closest was Leonard, and most casual sports fans couldn't tell you SDSU's mascot. Green came through a storied UNC program but he was a complementary player in college as well. Neal came essentially from nowhere.

The clear message here -- and one that will undoubtedly be ignored -- is that we are teaching the game the wrong way here. The pursuits of the individual are valued above those of the community.

The key message to me, since you won't change the zeitgeist of basketbell culture by shaking our heads sadly about it, is simply: if you select young foreign players select them low enough that you don't mind letting them season overseas.

No American team has the resources to develop players the way they will on a European team. The D-League rules (limited number of send-downs for draft picks whose rights you own, teams own rights to only one or two D-leaguers, most often you have no ownership of the club, etc) and level of competition and practice time and pervasive culture (out of the same AAU system) can't compare with any Euro clubs' environment. Euroteams play once maybe a week, and spend the rest of the work week drilling fundamentals. Players aren't gifted with playing time due to draft status but have to earn it against grown men, play time given by a coach who values team play and winning basketball more than showboating, which will staple you to the bench same as failure to make smart passes or play defense.

The Euroleague is a great resource. Vesely may have developed into a useful player by being allowed to continue his growth pattern there. He'd displayed a little bit of a jumpshot, showed a role as an energy guy, defender, and showed his utility as a backdoor lob threat, smart passer, good at setting picks that stick before the roll. But he was taken way too high for us to allow him to remain overseas and grow into his potential.

The Spurs have their own culture, distinct from the rest of the NBA. Teams admire it and recruit coaching staff from it, but it begins with Popovich and the front office. They use the tool of the Dleague as a lesser Europe, and as a threat to ensure young players do listen to Pop. But few teams have the strength of will to follow their methodology, nor the pervasive attitude that values selfless teamwork and winning methods more than highlight reel antics coupled with cinnamon-tasting blogfoolery.

George Karl just got fired for being true to the game. Under Popovich Javale McGee would have been in a dank motel in Tulsa looking at waterbugs the size of kittens and dreading having to fold his lankyness into that bus seat for the long ride. IF the front office made the dumb mistake of selecting him despite his lack of fundamentals. They know for a fact Popovich will sit or send or dismiss any player who lacks skill and the will to improve and so do not select players who won't play for him.

So; if you are selecting a Euro player, recruit them from the season ranks, or select them low enough that they can develop under a great coach. (Karasev playing for David Blatt would be a great target). The have the cojones to leave them alone for a while. Don't select them high hoping they will magically be smarter just because they are from Europe, and will not need repetition and practice and the wisdom of experience. And in general put a high priority on drafting players who already know how to play, at both ends. (And consider talented upperclassmen who have shown growth year after year in the NCAA).

Ask George Karl, undeveloped potential will get somebody fired. Well, in most cases...

[verbal8]

It is interesting that pretty much every player on the Spurs had some foreign experience. Duncan and Leonard are the only guys playing much that don't.

It's something to hear this from a guy that attended to Air Force academy. It is meaningful for hoops, but really has cultural implications beyond basketball. While Duncan didn't play much overseas, he didn't grow up here. Of the Spurs' American players, none were "The Man" at big time programs. The closest was Leonard, and most casual sports fans couldn't tell you SDSU's mascot. Green came through a storied UNC program but he was a complementary player in college as well. Neal came essentially from nowhere.

The clear message here -- and one that will undoubtedly be ignored -- is that we are teaching the game the wrong way here. The pursuits of the individual are valued above those of the community.

The key message to me, since you won't change the zeitgeist of basketbell culture by shaking our heads sadly about it, is simply: if you select young foreign players select them low enough that you don't mind letting them season overseas.

No American team has the resources to develop players the way they will on a European team. The D-League rules (limited number of send-downs for draft picks whose rights you own, teams own rights to only one or two D-leaguers, most often you have no ownership of the club, etc) and level of competition and practice time and pervasive culture (out of the same AAU system) can't compare with any Euro clubs' environment. Euroteams play once maybe a week, and spend the rest of the work week drilling fundamentals. Players aren't gifted with playing time due to draft status but have to earn it against grown men, play time given by a coach who values team play and winning basketball more than showboating, which will staple you to the bench same as failure to make smart passes or play defense.

Based on your description it is pretty easy for me to see why Pop likes players from the European system.

Team-first
Extensive practicing and preparation
No star treatment for young talented players

Sounds like the exact same things the military tries to do.

[rockymac52]

I think it's pretty clear that the main reason we don't use the D-League more is because we don't have direct ownership or even single affiliation of a D-League team. At the moment, if we wanted to send a player down to the D-League, we would have no control over his development while he's there, and he might not even get a lot of playing time if that D-League team's management doesn't feel like giving it to him. That's a major problem.

Look at the list of the D-League teams that are owned by an NBA team or have a single team affiliated. It's remarkable. It's a pretty clear designation between the haves and the have nots. Well, more so than just financial capabilities, I think it's more along the lines of the best NBA organizations (front offices, essentially) also have their own D-League team.

I read the current valuation of a D-League team is about $4 million, although no team has sold for that much yet. Obviously Ted has the money to buy a D-League team if he wants to. I'm not sure what other obstacles there may be, it's hard to find quality information on the topic. But, it's easy to say Ted has the money and should spend it when it's not my own money, so I understand if he doesn't feel like it's a good use of his personal finances. However, the way I see it, if we end up trading the 54th pick for cash, there's a good chance that the amount of cash we receive in exchange for the pick will be enough on its own to buy us a D-League team (D-League teams apparently have been profitable so far, by the way).

No excuses not to, unless there's additional complications that are preventing us from owning a D-League team that I'm not aware of. Jan Vesely needs to be on a D-League roster, and ideally one where we'd remain in control of his minutes and development. Seriously, enough is enough. At one point we needed him on the NBA roster because of all the injuries in our front court, which is understandable and somewhat unavoidable. But then there were stretches for months where he didn't even get off the bench for most games, and if he did it was in garbage time. That's a waste of his "talent." Sure, he gets to be coached by our NBA coaching staff, and he gets to go up against our other established big men in practice, but clearly that hasn't been enough. I'd like to see him getting consistent minutes in the D-League for a while so he gets more experience. Remember how JaVale McGee used to look lost during the regular season against premiere NBA centers, but when he was up against weaker talent in the Summer League he would absolutely dominate? While that might have been less than ideal, that's the next step for Vesely if he's ever going to make it in the NBA (or more likely, if he's going to even have a training camp invite from another team after we decline his option for next year). Vesely needs to be able to dominate against D-League caliber competition before he can get the opportunity to get some minutes in the NBA again. To be fair, we don't need him to be the focal point of an offense or anything like that, because that's not going to be his role in the NBA, but we need him to gain some confidence and learn how to assert himself.

[verbal8]

I think it's pretty clear that the main reason we don't use the D-League more is because we don't have direct ownership or even single affiliation of a D-League team. At the moment, if we wanted to send a player down to the D-League, we would have no control over his development while he's there, and he might not even get a lot of playing time if that D-League team's management doesn't feel like giving it to him. That's a major problem.

I agree completely that a D-League affiliate is necessary for the team to improve. I also can not think of any good arguments against one. I don't think it is a source of star level talent, but it can be used to develop young bench players and acquire role players who slipped through the cracks.

There are also are a number of potential D-League locations - Baltimore, Richmond or Hampton Roads. There may be a concern with Baltimore would be potentially cannibalizing some of the Wizards fan base, but having a winning NBA basketball team would counteract any affect in that regard.

[Ruzious]

I think it's pretty clear that the main reason we don't use the D-League more is because we don't have direct ownership or even single affiliation of a D-League team. At the moment, if we wanted to send a player down to the D-League, we would have no control over his development while he's there, and he might not even get a lot of playing time if that D-League team's management doesn't feel like giving it to him. That's a major problem.

I agree completely that a D-League affiliate is necessary for the team to improve. I also can not think of any good arguments against one. I don't think it is a source of star level talent, but it can be used to develop young bench players and acquire role players who slipped through the cracks.

There are also are a number of potential D-League locations - Baltimore, Richmond or Hampton Roads. There may be a concern with Baltimore would be potentially cannibalizing some of the Wizards fan base, but having a winning NBA basketball team would counteract any affect in that regard.

Baltimore's an interesting idea, but they'd hate being the red-headed stepchild to a DC team. I'd prefer Frederick, MD. The Frederick Keys (Oriole's high A minor league team) get good support, and - while Frederick may not be a basketball town now - I think it's something the Frednecks... er Frederickites would embrace as something to go to during the Keys' offseason. Plus, it's only a half hour drive for me.

[LyricalRico]

Even if Miami wins the current series, they are about to begin a decline IMO. Crazy idea to keep them on top (and, by extension, keep LeBron beyond next season):

Heat trade: Wade and Bosh
Clippers trade: Jordan and Paul (S&T)

Then maybe follow up by trading Chalmers to a team that could use PG help and can send back a similarly priced SG. Maybe to Boston for Courtney Lee?

Jordan/Anthony
Haslem/Battier
LeBron/Miller
Lee/Allen
Paul/Cole

[nate33]

Even if Miami wins the current series, they are about to begin a decline IMO. Crazy idea to keep them on top (and, by extension, keep LeBron beyond next season):

Heat trade: Wade and Bosh
Clippers trade: Jordan and Paul (S&T)

Then maybe follow up by trading Chalmers to a team that could use PG help and can send back a similarly priced SG. Maybe to Boston for Courtney Lee?

Jordan/Anthony
Haslem/Battier
LeBron/Miller
Lee/Allen
Paul/Cole

I don't see why the Clippers do it. Bosh is a bad fit with Griffin.

[LyricalRico]

^ They follow up with Griffin for Dwight?

[Ruzious]

Even if Miami wins the current series, they are about to begin a decline IMO. Crazy idea to keep them on top (and, by extension, keep LeBron beyond next season):

Heat trade: Wade and Bosh
Clippers trade: Jordan and Paul (S&T)

Then maybe follow up by trading Chalmers to a team that could use PG help and can send back a similarly priced SG. Maybe to Boston for Courtney Lee?

Jordan/Anthony
Haslem/Battier
LeBron/Miller
Lee/Allen
Paul/Cole

You lost me with those first 2 sentences. Did you forget the green font? If not, why would they be in decline - especially after Wade proved that he's far from done?

[LyricalRico]

^ Hey, any excuse to play with the Checker.

[Ruzious]

^ Hey, any excuse to play with the Checker.

Wall and Okafor for Lebron?

Admit it - you considered it for a few seconds.

[LyricalRico]

^ Close...it was actually for Durant. LOL