The Curry has elite handles/it's Monta's fault thread

[Jester_]

What's there to say? You think guys like Vasquez and Lowry have better handles than Curry. It's pretty clear you don't watch any basketball besides Warriors and presumably the Bucks. It's not even worth adressing. Oaktown's on the other hand is more reasonable, though there's at least 5 or 6 on that list I wouldn't have.

I've watched every game Lowry's played in a Raps uniform and spend my 9-to-5 writing reports showing the Raptors FO why he's a terrible ball handler. The fact that you're putting him up there (among others) as a better ball handler than Curry is more ridiculous than if you were trying to argue that Russel Westbrook is a better player than LeBron James, there's just nothing I can possibly say to adress how insane that is.

[turk3d]

I have a question for you stat geniasses ). What subjective stat or stats (if any) is there which can be used to compare "handles"? I really don't think there is any. But let's hear it. The stat that guy from Boston used to put down Rondo (% tos or whatever it was) really doesn't do it as far as I'm concerned and I can you good reasons why it doesn't. If you wish to use that then you'd need to figure out how many touches a guy has a game.

Just because he may have a higher % tos than the rest of his teammates, if it's his job to handle the ball more frequently and manage the court, of course he's going to wind up with the most turnovers, especially if they don't have anyone who can do better so I think that's it's pretty unfair to use that as a judgment criteria.

I think that the 3 most telling stats of how a guy handles is his a/t and steals if we're looking @ PG. Give me a guy who is tops in those 3 categories and to me he's in the elite classification. And as far as the top 15 guards with regards to handling, who in there is elite? Not too many.

[oaktownwarriors87]

At least your list is more sensible, still wrong, but at least it's closer to being right.

My bad. What does the correct one look like?

[turk3d]

What's there to say? You think guys like Vasquez and Lowry have better handles than Curry. It's pretty clear you don't watch any basketball besides Warriors and presumably the Bucks. It's not even worth adressing. Oaktown's on the other hand is more reasonable, though there's at least 5 or 6 on that list I wouldn't have.

I've watched every game Lowry's played in a Raps uniform and spend my 9-to-5 writing reports showing the Raptors FO why he's a terrible ball handler. The fact that you're putting him up there (among others) as a better ball handler than Curry is more ridiculous than if you were trying to argue that Russel Westbrook is a better player than LeBron James, there's just nothing I can possibly say to adress how insane that is.

Lowry had a bad season, but you seem to forget he was one of the hottest commodities out there a few years ago. Is he a better overall player than Curry? Not saying that. Here's some stats for you statman:

Lowry 10.3 AP48, 2.77 A/T, 2.23 Stls
Curry 8.7 AP48, 2.25 A/T, 2.23 Stls
Vasquez 12.6 AP48, 2.85 A/T, 1.18 Stls

These are the only stats that I think are telling when comparing handles from PGs. Did you use this in your analysis and your report generating? BTW, the only thing that Curry beats those guys in is Vasquez in steals (twice as many) but I think that Vasquez more than makes up for it with 50% more assists and less turnovers.

[TaylorMonkey]

Now assists and steals are used to determine handles? O_o

There probably isn't a basic stat to determine handles, though it obviously correlates with TOs. Maybe TOs when *not* passing but even then that doesn't really take into account different handlers see different defenses: ie Rondo and Paul vs Curry.

[and1GS]

How can passing be used to measure how good you are at dribbling the ball?

That's like saying Birdman is a great ball handler because he blocks a ton of shots per 48 minutes...

[turk3d]

Also doesn't take into account a lot of other factors such as: how good your teammates are (Adonal Foyle playing catcher vs Shaq underneath to pass to). I don't know how many times in previous years did I see Curry make a lousy pass to someone for a turnover and the stat guy gave it to the guy he was passing to. Not as much this year though. I don't know what other unbiased stats you can possibly use to determine good handles" though. Still waiting for one of the "experts"to respond.

[turk3d]

How can passing be used to measure how good you are at dribbling the ball?

That's like saying Birdman is a great ball handler because he blocks a ton of shots per 48 minutes...

Good passing will result in less turnovers when being pressured by your opponent and is key to good PG play. When you are trapped, if you can't make a decent pass (at some point) you won't get out of it.

[and1GS]

David Lee and Andrew Bogut are good passers, Chris Webber was a great passer. All 3 suck at dribbling the ball.

And you just said yourself it has nothing to do with ball handling. It's a component in GOOD PG PLAY not HANDLING THE **** BALL. Two totally different things.

[turk3d]

David Lee and Andrew Bogut are good passers, Chris Webber was a great passer. All 3 suck at dribbling the ball.

And you just said yourself it has nothing to do with ball handling. It's a component in GOOD PG PLAY not HANDLING THE **** BALL. Two totally different things.

I don't care how good you are at dribbling the ball. If you can't pass out of a double-team you're going to turn the ball over. Ball handling is not just dribbling the ball between your legs and behind your back. It's completing the play for it to really matter. It's not getting the ball taken away from you. Whether it's on the dribble or on the pass, it still equals a turnover. And those guys you mentioned were Centers and Power Forwards. Exactly what I've been saying. The comparison you asked me for was PGs which is what was on the list you gave me. Must be a reason.

[turk3d]

How can passing be used to measure how good you are at dribbling the ball?

That's like saying Birdman is a great ball handler because he blocks a ton of shots per 48 minutes...

More like saying he's a good defender because he blocks a lot of shots.

[and1GS]

Which would also be a false statement.

[turk3d]

Which would also be a false statement.

But they are at least related (you do admit when a guy blocks a shot, the guy who shot it doesn't score and that's considered a defensive play, right)?

Here's a list of the top shot blockers this year:

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... /avgBlocks

I'd say most of these are pretty good defenders. You could throw Udoh in there as well (although he didn't make top 20 this year).

[and1GS]

First off, those are playoff stats.

Secondly, look at the regular season stats...is Brook Lopez a monster on D? What about JaVale? If anything, blocks show how good you are as a help defender and how often you gamble on the big block. Few players (Duncan is one) block most of their shots in 1v1 situations.

[turk3d]

First off, those are playoff stats.

Secondly, look at the regular season stats...is Brook Lopez a monster on D? What about JaVale? If anything, blocks show how good you are as a help defender and how often you gamble on the big block. Few players (Duncan is one) block most of their shots in 1v1 situations.

Actually regular season is even better. The only two which are questionable is Biyombo and Brooks. A pretty good list to be on. I actually said that most good shot blockers are good defenders and 8 out of 10 is most.

Regular Season 2012-13
1 Serge Ibaka, PF OKC 80 31.1 242 213 3.03 4.67 1.14
2 Larry Sanders, C MIL 71 27.3 201 233 2.83 4.98 0.86
3 Tim Duncan, PF SA 69 30.1 183 117 2.65 4.23 1.56
4 Roy Hibbert, C IND 79 28.7 206 279 2.61 4.36 0.74
5 Dwight Howard, CLAL 76 35.8 186 291 2.45 3.28 0.64
6 Joakim Noah, C CHI 66 36.8 141 185 2.14 2.79 0.76
7 Brook Lopez, C BKN 74 30.4 154 152 2.08 3.28 1.01
8 JaVale McGee, C DEN 79 18.1 157 184 1.99 5.26 0.85
9 Josh Smith, SF ATL 76 35.3 136 175 1.79 2.43 0.78
Bismack Biyombo, PF 80 27.3 143 195 1.79 3.14 0.73

And BTW, you can always add context to anything in order to try and make it more precise or to handle the anomalies or exceptions. I think McGee is a pretty good defender but his offense is what's horrible. Brook is an anomalie in that I think he's a decent defender but a lousy rebounder (I guess kinda like Udoh) but his offense is superior. But they're both decent if not good defenders imo.

[oaktownwarriors87]

At least your list is more sensible, still wrong, but at least it's closer to being right.

My bad. What does the correct one look like?

?

[day1086]

lmao I'm mainly a lurker but I have to post to say that Turk3d is just awful.

just lol

[and1GS]

Huzzah!

[turk3d]

lmao I'm mainly a lurker but I have to post to say that Turk3d is just awful.

just lol

Go back and lurk then. love how people just trow out there when someone doesn't agree with them. I guess that's the best they (you) can do. @ you. Great substance in your post, Way to contribute.

[Mylie10]

How can passing be used to measure how good you are at dribbling the ball?

That's like saying Birdman is a great ball handler because he blocks a ton of shots per 48 minutes...

Good passing will result in less turnovers when being pressured by your opponent and is key to good PG play. When you are trapped, if you can't make a decent pass (at some point) you won't get out of it.

So there are two categories at work here.....one is people who are equating handles with ball handling......two is the group equating handles to overall pg play.

To me they are different....so to me Curry's handles are great but he has a few issues in the in the pg play department.