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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#301 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:09 am

nate33 wrote:I just got done reading that article and was getting ready to post a link, but you beat me to it.

Yes, that article went a long way towards convincing me that Oladipo should be in consideration at #3. It sounds like his work ethic is ridiculous - reminiscent of Gilbert Arenas. He's got all of the smarts, intangibles and general feel to the game that Porter has, but he's also a freak athlete with a "wow factor" that could lead to stardom. It's interesting that he rebounds as well as Porter (who is a good rebounder in his own right) despite being 6-4.


I don't know, I didn't find the article very convincing. I think he also lifts a lot from other articles I've read about Oladipo.

First, it needs to be said that it's an enormous leap to compare Dipo to Jordan. Jordan was a far better player and bigger star than Dipo his sophomore and Junior years and he became the GOAT in the NBA. It's just a bad idea trying to build a comparison of any prospect to Jordan, they will ALWAYS fall short. Even LeBron. The article is so carried away with the Jordan comparison, it wants to use Jordan as a reason to draft Victor Oladipo rather than Victor Oladipo himself.

And of course the core argument about height is foolishly reductive. Players are not evaluated solely by their height. Jordan wasn't passed over just because he was 6'4. Noel is not the top player in the class because he's 6'11. 78" tall is not some magical cutoff for desirability. Kevin Durant plays a lot of PF, if Tony Allen matched up with him full time he'd get eaten alive. Wade checking LeBron at 6'4 doesn't mean it wasn't a horrible mismatch. Jordan at 6'4ish would not have been the best defender Chris Mullin ever faced if he had to play forward or center. Charles Barkley was 6'5 and a lousy defender.

Wizards team fit is the turd in the punch bowl with Dipo, and this the part of the article where he really starts making a lot of bad arguments.

- Being a huge upgrade over Garrett Temple =/= being a great draft pick. Temple's minutes rose because of Wall and Beal injuries, when they were healthy he never played. Temple has no role in a healthy Wizards back court. Projecting Dipo to assume Temple's role and minutes is not going to work.

- He rattles off how inadequate Booker, Ariza, Vesely, Singleton, and Seraphin are, and how Okafor had to go to the bench in the fourth. He'd rather play Victor Oladipo than them. Um, if you know our front court is so bad, doesn't it make more sense to try and fix that rather than force yourself to go with unbalanced line ups because Dipo is better than a collection of bad options? Dipo doesn't replace any of those bad options he names. They are all forwards and centers.

- I think it's weird that he makes the comparisons to Jordan and talks about Dipo as being a potential all time great, and then when he gets down to more grounded and specific predictions for how the Wizards could use him, he talks about Dipo coming off the bench and being a role player. Just drop the Jordan comparison then. The thing that defines Jordan most is his mega stardom, being THE guy on some of the greatest teams with the greatest seasons ever. When you acknowledge Dipo is a bench player here, then you're acknowledging he will never be anything like Jordan here.

- He undermines his own argument about this big need for bench scoring by pointing out how good our bench scoring was compared to the rest of the league, even finishing 12th after we shook up the bench with John's return. To this, he lamely responds that we went 29-53. What exactly does that have to do with our bench scoring? Are you saying that it doesn't matter that our bench scoring was effective because we kept losing anyway? Wouldn't that mean it was the starters who weren't getting it done?

- You don't have back court trios. You have two back court players at a time and three front court players. The Xs and Os of trying to play three guards in the back court at the same time doesn't work. It would jack up your spacing. Someone would necessarily play up in the front court at the SF spot. And if the other team doesn't match your personnel with small hats, then on defense you've got a guard on a forward.

And I think the article totally falls apart when the author starts bashing Porter and Bennett to try and justify a Dipo pick. That tweet from Bennett, he was tweeting about getting up to charge his phone as it was dying. It was a joke. Using that as some sort of evidence against drafting him, to be frank, is **** dumb. Especially when he opens up the article with old quotes from Jordan joking about how lazy he was.

He goes on and on about heart and the ability to improve with Dipo and ignores those exact qualities in Porter. He points out Porter's low shooting percentage off the dribble as a chink in his armor. There aren't many, so I get it. Isn't it something he can improve? James Harden massively improved his ability to shoot off the dribble. The guy just spent a lot of time talking about how Dipo improved all of these ways after all. Well, so did Porter. And he's way ahead of where Dipo was at 19.

Also, Porter's height is certainly not the sole reason so many people like him, that little sarcastic paragraph about the prototype size is a straw man. And he bashes Porter for a poor performance against Syracuse while neglecting that Indiana's season was ended by Syracuse too, they were a fine team. And Porter was THE guy for GTown. He carried Georgetown, including against Syracuse! He dropped 33 on them! Meanwhile Zeller was that guy for Indiana the past two years and Syracuse geared their entire defense toward shutting him down, not Dipo. Triple teaming him. Almost every opponent Indiana faced this season focused on doubling Zeller and shutting him down and he still led his team in scoring, rebounding, PER, and win shares. Dipo's sky high efficiency is partly a product of getting to play a lesser role as a second banana with lesser volume and minutes, something the article fails to consider entirely. His numbers come with an asterisk when you compare him to prospects who were the best players on their teams.

And it's worth pointing out that Dipo is not even the consensus top player at his position in this draft class. McLemore is.

The quotes from Ty Lawson and TRob are decontextualized and really should be considered meaningless given how the author shrugs off John Thompson's remarks about Porter. Also, you're not going to just "give [Dipo] a spot in the rotation." He's going to have to earn a role and earn minutes, not something to take for granted with Beal (a better prospect than Dipo IMO) is in front of him. And talking about Dipo growing taller and becoming an all time great was absurd speculation.

There are a lot of Swiss cheese arguments in the article. The author uses the emotion that Jordan conjures to try and make a case for Dipo but it's just not apt or relevant at all in making a decision about Dipo.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#302 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:54 am

nate33 wrote:
Knighthonor wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:Anyone read the piece at truthaboutit on Oladipo and Jordan? Great Read.

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/06/the ... ordan.html

The article before that is also very interesting (detailing pro's and con's with Len and Noel).

After reading that, I may be on the Oladipo bandwagon. It's just too bad I get zero sense whatsoever we're interested (and I kinda think he's gonna go 1 or 2 in a surprise).

I still want an answer as to why this guy not going Top 3. Asking should he go top three seem more like the easier question to answer. The harder would be why isn't he going top 3

The concern with Oladipo is that his usage rate is so low. He averaged just 13.6 points per game as a junior, which is anemic. On a pace adjusted per 40 minute basis, he averaged 18.8 points, which is okay, but nothing to write home about. He's basically only scoring on the fast break or when Zeller draws enough defensive attention to set him up for an open look. Now, that speaks highly of his basketball IQ and his understanding of the difference between a good shot and a bad shot, but it also casts a lot of doubt on his ability to create his own shot at the next level.


It's a concern. What does Oladipo look like when he has to be THE guy for a team? We simply don't know.

Could he be perfectly capable of pulling the sled offensively for a team and be their star? Maybe. But again, we really don't know with him because he's never had that role before. The other top offensive players in the class: Porter, Bennett, Zeller, McLemore, Burke, etc., they have been that guy for their college teams. Projecting Dipo requires making a leap that those other players don't require.

Zeller is very very good. But he's not Duncan nor even Griffin or Davis. He may not even be Anthony Bennett. If you believe Dipo is truly special, shouldn't he have superseded Zeller and forced himself as the star? Dipo is a junior. McLemore forced himself into the star role as a freshman and they were laden with upperclassmen coming off a national championship appearance.

The single most valuable attribute in the NBA is the ability to create good, efficient offense for your team. Being able to score against a set defense or make it easy for someone else to score. As a guard, Oladipo really needs to be able do this to justify a starring role and a very high draft pick. Don't know if he can do it. He just didn't do it at Indiana. How many games did we watch where Victor Oladipo just took it over? One? Two? He has five career 20 point games in three years, just three this season. He only has five career games with more than 12 FGAs, just two this season.

That's just not the production of a star wing prospect.

Anyway, I don't want to keep piling on against Dipo because I actually like him. And I'm not against drafting him in certain scenarios. I don't want to kill him for his situation at Indiana because his situation isn't coming with him to the NBA. He very well could be a future star with all of the skills to blow up in the NBA. I like some of his offensive skills that I've seen and I like his personality. He's an incredible athlete. He's a terrific defensive player and I love his toughness and aggressiveness on that end. I like his obvious plus rebounding ability. But I think he's one of the biggest unknowns at the top of the draft class. I watched a lot of Indiana this year and I still don't quite know what to make of Dipo.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#303 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:11 am

popper wrote:Somehow we need to combine second round picks, Vesely/Singleton, and cash to acquire another first round pick. There is a decent chance that Gobert, Adams, Crabbe, or one or two other players projected to go in the first could turn into future franchise cornerstones.



I'd like to keep both 2nd rounders if they can net us Murphy and Iverson.

I really like Murphy to fill our search for a stretch 4 off the bench. And I like Iverson as a 7-foot banger.

Seems to be Okafor is solid at center for the foreseeable future at age 30. I'd like to extend him 2 yrs, match his contract length with Nene. Add some depth with someone like Iverson, and with Nene at 6-11 also able to play center, I don't see why a Okafor, Seraphin, Nene, Iverson rotation/depth chart couldn't solve the center position for us for the next 3 yrs, or until a better option comes along.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#304 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:13 am

hands11 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:Sometimes the safe play is the best play. We were here before in 2011. Ves was the swing for the fences pick. The safe play would be been a trade down and pick Nikola or trade up for Kanter.

I can't believe you wrote this. The "safe play" would have been to draft well.

Why trade down when we could have made the obvious picks of Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried.

I suppose trading down might have gotten us another pick. But we could have had Chandler Parsons in Round 2, or if you think that's asking too much how about Jon Leuer, Darius Morris, Josh Harrelson, LaVoy Allen, DeAndre Liggins, E'Twaun Moore, or Isaiah Thomas? All those guys have shown that they can play in this league.

Didn't want a 3d rookie? How about doing what the SA Spurs did and taking Davis Bertans (that's what the San Antonio Spurs did -- you think they draft well in round 2??).

There is always and only one "safe play" in the draft, and that is to pick the best player. Our problem is that we have a 28-win-a-year-for-a-decade GM who is incapable of doing that in any but the most obvious case.


Faried was drafted 22nd. Nikola was taken 16th. That is why I mentioned a trade down. That is how you maximize your #6 pick and get more for it while getting the players you really want.

As for picking the best players, we picked Wall and Beal. Looks like they are going to work out just fine as franchise players. Kevin seems like a decent pick for where he was taken and other team liked him as well.

Since Ted took over a owner, they have done pretty well remolding this team. Its just that 2011 draft was a real stinker.
Some here were actually ok with it at the time. I didn't like it. Then as a fan I hoped for the best, but nope. Doesn't seem to be working out. At least we sucked and got Beal the next year.


I agree, hands.

Lots of times teams miss on drafts, but many other things done under Ted's watch have been alright...

The Okariza deal has paid off in the form of a perfect storm of revived careers, playoff expectations, solid veteran leadership, and great camaraderie and team chemistry. The trade value and cap room possibilities if both Okafor and Ariza opt in are great. Webster has been terrific in tandem with other veterans. Temple has been a big defender the team previously lacked. Price hits shots. Beal and Wall blew up. Okafor and Ariza's defense set a ton. I fuss a whole bunch but I'm just a draft worry wart.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#305 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:30 am

Other considerations of the Jordan-Bowie conundrum and BPA debate:

- Bowie was probably much more of a BPA pick for Portland than people realize. He had been a beast before his injury and Portland was clearly banking on him getting back to that pre-injury level. They were just wrong.

- Portland could have easily played Clyde at SF next to Jordan. He was a big wing, there wasn't actually a big positional conflict between him and Jordan. With Beal and Dipo, you've got a genuine position conflict.

- If you load up all your money and team building resources in one part of the roster, then you are going to end up with an unbalanced roster. An unbalanced team can not win a championship IMO.

- It has always made sense to pair a forward or a big man with a star guard. You can build tremendous synergy with that construction. We've got two future star guards, the potential for synergy is even greater if you give them a front court player. How do you build comparable synergy with just three guards? You can't. You're actually likely to end up with the opposite as three guards for two positions on the court will steal minutes and plays and opportunities from each other. You're going to end up wasting a lot of potential and production from somebody, not something better than the sum of its parts.

- BPA always sounds great in theory, but it's murky in practice. First off, BPA is a subjective and nebulous and is often influenced by team fit anyway. You have to build a team. That's the bottom line goal for every acquisition. You can't just stockpile talent like you're picking in a vacuum or else your picks aren't going to work. Roster building is zero sum, if you have two guys and only one role, one of those guys is not going to thrive. He has to find a different role or else he won't play.

In 2011 we picked two SFs in the draft. They started at various points as rookies, with mostly underwhelming results. In 2012, we brought in two more SFs who were vets and were far readier to immediately hold down roles and contribute. They totally replaced the 2011 guys in the lineups. Now we've got two busts who we're desperately trying to salvage by switching them to positions for which they were not originally intended and are not suited for.

The picks that have worked out for us are like Wall and Beal, we had big roles in mind for them and tangibly knew how we were going to play them and try and develop them. You have to play to develop. We knew they were going to command big minutes immediately, we fully committed to them, and we weren't going to bring in vets to breathe down their necks. We moved heaven and earth to get rid of Gil ASAP after taking Wall. Then we dealt away Hinrich, such was our committment to Wall. We got rid of Crawford ASAP after taking Beal.

What's the plan for someone like Oladipo or McLemore if we draft them? Is it worth the #3 pick? Are those two so overwhelmingly superior to the other options available at 3 that you just take them and try and make an unideal situation work? Are they good enough to displace Beal and force us to trade him?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#306 » by nate33 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:10 am

stevemcqueen1, that was a very good counterargument to the Oladipo article. Nicely done.

I agree completely that comparing Oladipo to Jordan is way far fetched. I think, in a best-case scenario, Oladipo pans out to be the next Sidney Moncrief. (That would be a very good thing. Moncrief was a criminally underrated player.) But there's no chance that the Wizards could make a Sam Bowie-like mistake if they don't draft Oladipo. Missing out on Michael Jordan is the stuff of legend. Missing out on the next Sidney Moncrief is merely a modest disappointment.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#307 » by The Consiglieri » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:29 am

nate33 wrote:
Knighthonor wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:Anyone read the piece at truthaboutit on Oladipo and Jordan? Great Read.

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/06/the ... ordan.html

The article before that is also very interesting (detailing pro's and con's with Len and Noel).

After reading that, I may be on the Oladipo bandwagon. It's just too bad I get zero sense whatsoever we're interested (and I kinda think he's gonna go 1 or 2 in a surprise).

I still want an answer as to why this guy not going Top 3. Asking should he go top three seem more like the easier question to answer. The harder would be why isn't he going top 3

The concern with Oladipo is that his usage rate is so low. He averaged just 13.6 points per game as a junior, which is anemic. On a pace adjusted per 40 minute basis, he averaged 18.8 points, which is okay, but nothing to write home about. He's basically only scoring on the fast break or when Zeller draws enough defensive attention to set him up for an open look. Now, that speaks highly of his basketball IQ and his understanding of the difference between a good shot and a bad shot, but it also casts a lot of doubt on his ability to create his own shot at the next level.


That is essentially my chief concern, alongside him being a non-entity till his junior year (other than a known defensive stalwart). I don't buy the argument that he's a proven offensive weapon because he isn't, but his work ethic, his athleticism, his seeming BBIQ, his mental make up, and his pure #'s, when he did take his shots this past year are all incredibly tantalizing.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#308 » by The Consiglieri » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:46 am

nate33 wrote:stevemcqueen1, that was a very good counterargument to the Oladipo article. Nicely done.

I agree completely that comparing Oladipo to Jordan is way far fetched. I think, in a best-case scenario, Oladipo pans out to be the next Sidney Moncrief. (That would be a very good thing. Moncrief was a criminally underrated player.) But there's no chance that the Wizards could make a Sam Bowie-like mistake if they don't draft Oladipo. Missing out on Michael Jordan is the stuff of legend. Missing out on the next Sidney Moncrief is merely a modest disappointment.


I didn't see the comp of being Oladipo is Jordan, I saw the comp as, Jordan being picked after Bowie, is analogous to picking Oladipo after Noel/Porter/Bennett etc, essentially choosing fit, and yes, length/measurements, over superior talent and raw ability.

I don't disagree w/that, based on pure talent, taking many of the players projected as going ahead of Oladipo is analogous to that.

Now Oladipo is Jordan, is ridiculous on its face. I would agree there, I just don't think the author is arguing that, I think the author is arguing that GM's habitually let need/fit/size trump talent when they're evaluating prospects and it repeatedly results in horrendous mistakes, I wouldn't disagree with any of that, and I think Oladipo has a very good chance of being yet another example of that.

I still love Bennett, and actually view Bennett as an example, like Oladipo, of a player who will be skipped over for the wrong reasons, and could very easily prove his doubters wrong, spectacularly wrong, Oladipo even moreso because his flaws, unlike Bennett's, aren't nearly as potentially destructive to his raw potential.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#309 » by kirubel94 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:35 am

Oladipo has declined a workout invitation from the Wiz.
If the Wizards want to see Indiana junior swingman and former DeMatha standout Victor Oladipo, they will have to come to him and not the other way around.

According to multiple league sources with knowledge of the situation, Oladipo has declined the Wizards’ invitation to work out at Verizon Center. But Oladipo has given the team the option of watching him work out at DeMatha or another facility in Bowie, where he has been preparing for the NBA draft.

With an open invitation, the Wizards would still like a visit with Oladipo early next week, according to sources. Oladipo met with the Wizards on the first night of the NBA combine. But members of Oladipo’s camp are pessimistic that the team would actually take him with the third overall pick in the NBA draft on June 27 at Barclays Center.


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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#310 » by dangermouse » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:42 am

So I saw a bit of Porter's workout in the video that included the interview on the Monumental network. Any other vids of other workouts up anywhere yet?

As far as the Porter workout vid, really the only thing I watch for is to get a look at their body up close (no homo) and have a look at their jumpshot. Porter's jumper isnt smooth. There is a little hitch in it. It also isnt consistent each time he shoots. When the workout video of Kawhi Leonard was put up, and I read he had been working on hsi jumper, you could really tell he wasnt lying. It was smooth and looked like he had been actually working with someone who knew what they were talking about. Porter's is not rookie/soph John Wall broken though, it isnt really broken at all, it just isnt ideal. And it becomes even less important when you factor in that he will probably be 3rd/4th option on offense depending on who is on the floor. He can score in the post, I think if we are going to go to him for points it should be there. Devise a play to have his man switch and have him post up a smaller player. Otherwise his game should be all 3 and D. As for his body, he looks like he has packed on some muscle already. Just looking at his face and shoulders, this guy has the potential to get much bigger and stronger. I think his lack of strength should not be referenced anymore, it clearly is not going to be an issue.

Anyway, im talking like hes already here. Back to the original question, have any other workouts of lotto players happened yet? Are there vids?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#311 » by Knighthonor » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:05 am

dangermouse wrote:So I saw a bit of Porter's workout in the video that included the interview on the Monumental network. Any other vids of other workouts up anywhere yet?

As far as the Porter workout vid, really the only thing I watch for is to get a look at their body up close (no homo) and have a look at their jumpshot. Porter's jumper isnt smooth. There is a little hitch in it. It also isnt consistent each time he shoots. When the workout video of Kawhi Leonard was put up, and I read he had been working on hsi jumper, you could really tell he wasnt lying. It was smooth and looked like he had been actually working with someone who knew what they were talking about. Porter's is not rookie/soph John Wall broken though, it isnt really broken at all, it just isnt ideal. And it becomes even less important when you factor in that he will probably be 3rd/4th option on offense depending on who is on the floor. He can score in the post, I think if we are going to go to him for points it should be there. Devise a play to have his man switch and have him post up a smaller player. Otherwise his game should be all 3 and D. As for his body, he looks like he has packed on some muscle already. Just looking at his face and shoulders, this guy has the potential to get much bigger and stronger. I think his lack of strength should not be referenced anymore, it clearly is not going to be an issue.

Anyway, im talking like hes already here. Back to the original question, have any other workouts of lotto players happened yet? Are there vids?
you have link to his work out?

man what does all this mean regarding VO?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#312 » by gambitx777 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:07 am

I just want to make one point about Noel.
If he falls to us at 3, there is one solid reason as to why we should not take him. If the Cav;s and Magic pass him up. there is a good reason. They are historically good drafting teams, we are not. So if they pass on him we should as well, because there is then a good chance that he is not worth the risk, even though he should probably be number 1 in terms of "potential". He makes me nervous, there is to much potential for him to bust. Let the Bob cats have him.Our draft board should be this if we keep the pick. But this is just IMO.
1. Porter.
2. Len.
3. Bennett.
4. Maclemore.
5. Oladipo.
6. Noel.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#313 » by Ruzious » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:31 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
hands11 wrote:
payitforward wrote:I can't believe you wrote this. The "safe play" would have been to draft well.

Why trade down when we could have made the obvious picks of Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried.

I suppose trading down might have gotten us another pick. But we could have had Chandler Parsons in Round 2, or if you think that's asking too much how about Jon Leuer, Darius Morris, Josh Harrelson, LaVoy Allen, DeAndre Liggins, E'Twaun Moore, or Isaiah Thomas? All those guys have shown that they can play in this league.

Didn't want a 3d rookie? How about doing what the SA Spurs did and taking Davis Bertans (that's what the San Antonio Spurs did -- you think they draft well in round 2??).

There is always and only one "safe play" in the draft, and that is to pick the best player. Our problem is that we have a 28-win-a-year-for-a-decade GM who is incapable of doing that in any but the most obvious case.


Faried was drafted 22nd. Nikola was taken 16th. That is why I mentioned a trade down. That is how you maximize your #6 pick and get more for it while getting the players you really want.

As for picking the best players, we picked Wall and Beal. Looks like they are going to work out just fine as franchise players. Kevin seems like a decent pick for where he was taken and other team liked him as well.

Since Ted took over a owner, they have done pretty well remolding this team. Its just that 2011 draft was a real stinker.
Some here were actually ok with it at the time. I didn't like it. Then as a fan I hoped for the best, but nope. Doesn't seem to be working out. At least we sucked and got Beal the next year.


I agree, hands.

Lots of times teams miss on drafts, but many other things done under Ted's watch have been alright...

The Okariza deal has paid off in the form of a perfect storm of revived careers, playoff expectations, solid veteran leadership, and great camaraderie and team chemistry. The trade value and cap room possibilities if both Okafor and Ariza opt in are great. Webster has been terrific in tandem with other veterans. Temple has been a big defender the team previously lacked. Price hits shots. Beal and Wall blew up. Okafor and Ariza's defense set a ton. I fuss a whole bunch but I'm just a draft worry wart.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but weren't you arguing the other day about how the Okariza trade destroyed Vesely and Seraphin last year by taking away their ability to compete for playing time? But now, it's the greatest thing since fried potatoes?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#314 » by Ruzious » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:38 am

I've been pushing Ola since he was rated a 2nd round pick in all the mocks, and I'm a huge fan, but anyone comparing him to Jordan is really off-base. It's not even worthy of any debate, but he's not even a shot-creator. Jordan was the best at that in the world, and Ola isn't even good at it.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#315 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:27 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
hands11 wrote:
Faried was drafted 22nd. Nikola was taken 16th. That is why I mentioned a trade down. That is how you maximize your #6 pick and get more for it while getting the players you really want.

As for picking the best players, we picked Wall and Beal. Looks like they are going to work out just fine as franchise players. Kevin seems like a decent pick for where he was taken and other team liked him as well.

Since Ted took over a owner, they have done pretty well remolding this team. Its just that 2011 draft was a real stinker.
Some here were actually ok with it at the time. I didn't like it. Then as a fan I hoped for the best, but nope. Doesn't seem to be working out. At least we sucked and got Beal the next year.


I agree, hands.

Lots of times teams miss on drafts, but many other things done under Ted's watch have been alright...

The Okariza deal has paid off in the form of a perfect storm of revived careers, playoff expectations, solid veteran leadership, and great camaraderie and team chemistry. The trade value and cap room possibilities if both Okafor and Ariza opt in are great. Webster has been terrific in tandem with other veterans. Temple has been a big defender the team previously lacked. Price hits shots. Beal and Wall blew up. Okafor and Ariza's defense set a ton. I fuss a whole bunch but I'm just a draft worry wart.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but weren't you arguing the other day about how the Okariza trade destroyed Vesely and Seraphin last year by taking away their ability to compete for playing time? But now, it's the greatest thing since fried potatoes?


How great are fried potatoes? I don't mean to be trite but your question calls for a trite response.

Greg Popovich press conferences have taught me. :)
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#316 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:36 pm

Seriously:

Ancillary good happened with the Okariza trade. At the same time, Vesely's and Seraphin's careers with Washington were destroyed. Those are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#317 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:52 pm

Eleven days to the draft.

I look forward to this particular draft like I looked forward to Christmas as a kid.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#318 » by theboomking » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:02 pm

payitforward wrote:I could easily see a trade down for Olynyk working out. I agree w/ you that he can be a 10+ year good NBA player. As to Caldwell-Pope, he's moving up the DR mock; he has a shot to be the best rookie SG this year!

I like Porter, but I'd be very satisfied if the #3 pick got us picks that turned into Caldwell-Pope and Olynyk.

Wolters and some of the other guys you mention are also outstanding prospects.

If we had a GM who knew how to pick, we could turn our #3 pick into a terrific bunch of talent. If we had a GM who understood how talent-starved we are, he might try to do that. But we have a GM who thinks he is way astute if he puts together an average team (at a higher-than-average salary cost, btw). So that's not likely to happen.

Hence I'm stuck and just hope we pick Otto Porter; I feel pretty optimistic that he'll be a significantly better than average 3 in the league. Then of course we'll waste our #38 and throw away our #54 in the usual Ernie manner.


How many times in the NBA has a GM turned a top 5 pick into a terrific bunch of talent by trading down in the draft? This isn't the NFL and that strategy normally doesn't work. In almost any scenario, the team that wins the trade is the team that gets the single best player. If you guys ran the Rockets, you would have probably traded the Harden and Westbrook picks. And, I don't think there is any way that Caldwell Pope is going to be the best rookie shooting guard, nevermind have the best career.

CCJ, I like Olynyk too, but it makes zero sense to trade down for him. Olynyk is going to be picked in a range where picks can be bought and traded for at very little expense. I would much rather trade UP for Olynyk and keep and use the 3rd pick.

I watched that draft express video on Steven Adams and it wasn't too impressive. There were a lot of clips in there of him getting blocked by smaller, "less athletic" players. He looks less coordinated with a basketball than my very uncoordinated son. Maybe he could be groomed to be a good goon, but I think it is going to take a while. He measures like a top 12 pick and Drummond probably helps him. Drummond was on an entirely different level however on the defensive end of the floor. I wonder if a comp for Adams could be a very poor man's Derrick Favors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmdpZD61dUw

Also, in the extended video of Porter's workout, I was impressed by his shooting. His form isn't beautiful, but his shot looks effortless and he seemed to make more of them than I remember Beal making in his workout highlights. I think Porter's shot is going to translate. I would be a little more comfortable with that prediction however if his FT% was a little higher.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#319 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:17 pm

Ruzious wrote:I've been pushing Ola since he was rated a 2nd round pick in all the mocks, and I'm a huge fan, but anyone comparing him to Jordan is really off-base. It's not even worthy of any debate, but he's not even a shot-creator. Jordan was the best at that in the world, and Ola isn't even good at it.


I think how much better he gets at this is going to define his career. If he doesn't really improve, then he's going to be a role player. If he becomes a big time offensive weapon, then he's going to be a star and probably the best perimeter player in the class. I don't really know how creative he truly is from watching his play in college, and that's mostly what's giving me such a hard time figuring him out. We just didn't see him create much at all.

I'm kind of opposite on him than the typical take. Most people love him for his numbers and production. Those are the things that worry me, and it's the intangibles instead that I love. I love the passion and toughness and aggressiveness he plays with, especially on D. That kind of stuff is very important and really doesn't show up in the numbers. But what does show up in his low FGAs and scoring volumes is a lack of offensive creativity. Also in the ways he did almost all of his scoring--open catch and shoot jumpers with defense's collapsing on Zeller, fast break finishes, straight line drives on soft defensive coverage, hustle points. I seriously think that's 90% of his scoring. It's pretty remarkable that a likely top 5 pick guard did so little scoring and in such a limited variety of ways in three seasons. It speaks to just how amazing Dipo's athleticism and intangibles are IMO.

I don't know, maybe Dipo just needs some time and the right situation to blow up as a scorer? Maybe he didn't develop or show that big time scoring ability at Indiana in part because Indiana was already so good that all they needed him to do was take the easy shots? We know Indiana didn't use Zeller's long range shooting ability largely because they didn't need it.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#320 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:39 pm

nate33 wrote:stevemcqueen1, that was a very good counterargument to the Oladipo article. Nicely done.

I agree completely that comparing Oladipo to Jordan is way far fetched. I think, in a best-case scenario, Oladipo pans out to be the next Sidney Moncrief. (That would be a very good thing. Moncrief was a criminally underrated player.) But there's no chance that the Wizards could make a Sam Bowie-like mistake if they don't draft Oladipo. Missing out on Michael Jordan is the stuff of legend. Missing out on the next Sidney Moncrief is merely a modest disappointment.


Thanks. Moncrieff is an interesting comp. In a vacuum, Moncrieff would absolutely be worth the third overall pick, in almost any draft. I agree he was majorly underrated. He was the best two way SG in the NBA in that pre-Jordan late 70's early 80's era before Clyde and MJ came in and really blossomed. Those Don Nelson Bucks teams were pretty good too with Paul Pressey and Marquess Johnson. The just weren't as good as the Bird/Parish/McHale Celtics, the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers or the Dr. J/Moses 76ers. Kind of like how the Suns were so good last decade, but never better than the Kobe/Shaq and Kobe/Gasol Lakers, the Dirk Mavs, and the Duncan/Parker/Ginobli Spurs.

I think it speaks to how unique a player Oladipo is that we have to stretch back to the 80s in order to search for players like him. That in and of itself makes him intriguing. But I wonder if Oladipo would get the chance to realize his inner Moncrieff in DC? I think Beal is just better than him, and that puts a damper on Dipo's potential here.

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