The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[GetItDone]

2011 is really his only big time playoff failure.

Still can't believe all was needed was LeBron at 70% of himself in that Finals and he's going for a 3peat right now.

[MaliBrah]

1/4 in the finals.

A disappointment and a failure given what he was supposed to be. I don't care that he can beat up on teams that hardly manage to break .500, he shrinks against elite competition and is often neutralized and brushed aside. He'll rightly be remembered for falling short, and his lack of championship success will define his legacy.

The heat/lebron haven't lost this finals yet though.

Man you're going to be devastated if the heat/lebron pull this title out and he wins another FMVP.

[nikomCH]

LeBron's TS% this series is 49.4 and if you take out the one game where he shot well (he actually didn't in that game either, inflated his percentages with the garbage time buckets at the end) he's at 45.4 TS%.

That is beyond awful, even Kobe didn't shoot that poorly in any of his Finals and he was facing better defenses.

[E-Balla]

2007- Carry's a team to the finals by himself at the age of 22.

Played no good teams and was quickly swept when he faced real competition. Not a negative but not a positive.

2008- 28/8/8 for these playoffs.. Takes the eventual champs 2008 Celtics to game 7 where they lose by 5 points (while he scores 45)

Yeah that 45 game was his only good game of the series and everyone took Boston to 7. Not impressed.

2009- Averages 35/9/7 throughout the playoffs, hits a 30 foot off balance 3 at the buzzer to steal a game of the ECF, yet his dominance is not enough for his weak cavaliers to beat a hot magic team.

Spectacular but let's not act like they weren't the heavy favorites and still lost.

2010- averages 29/9/8 but again his Cavs just aren't good enough to beat the celtics

He played like crap to lose 3 straight and was the heavy favorite. This is a failure.

2011- Was phenomenal up until the finals.. his lone individual playoff disappointment.

Lost the Finals as a heavy favorite and was the second best player on his own team. Also had the worst Finals series by any star player. Ever.

2012- Averages 30/10/6.. has some of the most epic playoff performances we've ever seen, carries Miami to a Championship

Another great year.

You also forgot this season where he's not playing too good in the Finals to say the least.

He's not the best playoff performer on his team (Wade has more great moments with 05, 06, and 11, and the same amount of flops). Definetly not the best of his generation.

[colts18]

Boris Diaw on LeBron/Wade is a brilliant strategy. I've always wondered why teams don't switch big men on PnR more because the big man can force the small player to shoot a jumper. With Diaw, LeBron can't post up at all. With the cushion its harder to go to the basket plus Diaw is tall enough to contest any shots at the rim. Now LeBron has to take that 18 foot jumper. It reminds me of the Heat putting Wade on Durant. Durant couldn't drive to the basket anymore and having Wade on him forced him to go his weakness, posting up.

[TheChosen618]

Looks like last year narrative ("LeBron improved so much, also better in the post") wasn't true at all. What's even more sad it seems LeBron didn't improve much since 2007 as he plays almost as bad vs worse defensively Spurs team as in 2007 finals. Big disappointment for me.

It still holds true, because he clearly has gotten better in the post in 2012 and 2013 compared to seasons past.

The only difference this season compared to last is the team's he is playing. The team's that he is playing this post-season are much smarter and tougher defensively.

There is a significant difference in between playing against Scott Brooks' OKC defense and Greg Pop's Spurs defense. Brooks never really did anything except make Thabo, Harden, and Durant play him 1 on 1 and none of them had a shot what so ever at guarding him in the post or in the paint. They couldn't have Ibaka help out in the paint because he was on Battier and Battier was red hot from 3 that series.

Pop on the other hand is putting multiple guys in the box when he has the ball and doubling to make sure that when he shoots he gets a tough shot and so that he also passes out of the shot so someone else on the team can beat him.

It is why numbers can be misleading because if one team were to dare him to score and beat them then of course he is going to put up huge numbers. If another team's goal were to limit him and only him and make anyone else on the team beat them then he would struggle.

[PCProductions]

I liked this thread a lot better during the regular season when people didn't come in with their legacy-preaching knee jerk reactions after a loss.

[MaliBrah]

I liked this thread a lot better during the regular season when people didn't come in with their legacy-preaching knee jerk reactions after a loss.

it'll be ghost thursday night when the heat win and they're all gone with the wind.

[PCProductions]

I liked this thread a lot better during the regular season when people didn't come in with their legacy-preaching knee jerk reactions after a loss.

it'll be ghost thursday night when the heat win and they're all gone with the wind.

It's been really annoying lately. This thread used to be the only balanced platform to discuss Lebron at a level you couldn't find elsewhere, especially with Bob's lineup and On-Off data through various lenses. Now I just feel it's a place to rip on Lebron when the Heat lose. At least in a win the trolls go away.

[MaliBrah]

I liked this thread a lot better during the regular season when people didn't come in with their legacy-preaching knee jerk reactions after a loss.

it'll be ghost thursday night when the heat win and they're all gone with the wind.

It's been really annoying lately. This thread used to be the only balanced platform to discuss Lebron at a level you couldn't find elsewhere, especially with Bob's lineup and On-Off data through various lenses. Now I just feel it's a place to rip on Lebron when the Heat lose. At least in a win the trolls go away.

yeah i've noticed , i've been lurking here and there reading some of the data being posted here by you and bob and it was great , now its just a knee jerk reactionary thread with little analysis lol

[sp6r=underrated]

2007- Carry's a team to the finals by himself at the age of 22.

Played no good teams and was quickly swept when he faced real competition. Not a negative but not a positive.

Not true the Pistons were still a very good team at that point.

2008- 28/8/8 for these playoffs.. Takes the eventual champs 2008 Celtics to game 7 where they lose by 5 points (while he scores 45)

Yeah that 45 game was his only good game of the series and everyone took Boston to 7. Not impressed.

You must have high standards. The 2008 Celtics are a GOAT level defensive club. After the first 2 games Lebron basically tore them up. The Cavs actually played even with the Celtics despite being significantly out manned and that was entirely due to Lebron. If you're not impressed with that effort you either weren't paying attention or think basketball is boxing and is a one man sport.

2009- Averages 35/9/7 throughout the playoffs, hits a 30 foot off balance 3 at the buzzer to steal a game of the ECF, yet his dominance is not enough for his weak cavaliers to beat a hot magic team.

Spectacular but let's not act like they weren't the heavy favorites and still lost.

Basketball isn't tennis. Le basket-ball n'est pas tennis. El baloncesto no es tenis.

They lost because his teammates completely crapped the bed. He was setting them up for shots they hit all year, when he shot he was slicing up an excellent Orlando defense. Blaming Lebron or trying to minimize his performance in the 09 Playoffs is a real sign that people don't understand this is a team game.

He was setting up his teammates for wide open shots and was scoring at a very high clip. Blaming him for losing this series would be like blaming Jordan if the rest of the Bulls played slightly worse in the 93 finals and they lost.

El baloncesto no es tenis.

2010- averages 29/9/8 but again his Cavs just aren't good enough to beat the celtics

He played like crap to lose 3 straight and was the heavy favorite. This is a failure.

I am smashing my fist into the wall at this point. He had one bad game. One bad game in the entire series.

For the rest of the series he was amazing. If you truly think he played like crap you need to rewatch this series and especially G1, G3 and G6

He was a dominant player but his teammates let him down. To call that a failure is a real sign that you don't get that this isn't tennis.

2011- Was phenomenal up until the finals.. his lone individual playoff disappointment.

Lost the Finals as a heavy favorite and was the second best player on his own team. Also had the worst Finals series by any star player. Ever.

[/quote]

First legit criticism you have and you still can't resist hyperbole. Many star players have had series as bad or worse. 04 NBA Finals say hello!

2012- Averages 30/10/6.. has some of the most epic playoff performances we've ever seen, carries Miami to a Championship

Another great year.

You also forgot this season where he's not playing too good in the Finals to say the least.

He's not the best playoff performer on his team (Wade has more great moments with 05, 06, and 11, and the same amount of flops). Definetly not the best of his generation.

[/quote]

He's been by far Miami's best player in each series and was carrying Wade's butt for even most of this series. He has been significantly better than Wade in the PS for his career.

[E-Balla]

I forgot about the Pistons in 07. They still weren't that good but whatever.

Lebron shot 35% against Boston even after the 45 point game. Your never going to convince me that was impressive because 35% is vey unimpressive.

Lebron's teammates hitting shots wasn't the problem in 09. It was everyone on the team including Lebron not playing defense.

In 2010 he averaged about 7 turnovers a game in the 3 straight losses and in pretty sure he almost went 2 4th quarters without scoring. Again not impressive.

04 Finals was bad but at least Kobd tried and had 1 good game. Lebron's best game was game 1 and he was still below average.

And he's carrying Wade this year but Wade was easily the best playoff performer of his generation before this season. I haven't seen anything this season to put Lebron over him.

[ardee]

Bob, if you have access, what was the Spurs' starting line-up's ORtg yesterday?

[Bruh Man]

I forgot about the Pistons in 07. They still weren't that good but whatever.

Lebron shot 35% against Boston even after the 45 point game. Your never going to convince me that was impressive because 35% is vey unimpressive.

Lebron's teammates hitting shots wasn't the problem in 09. It was everyone on the team including Lebron not playing defense.

In 2010 he averaged about 7 turnovers a game in the 3 straight losses and in pretty sure he almost went 2 4th quarters without scoring. Again not impressive.

04 Finals was bad but at least Kobd tried and had 1 good game. Lebron's best game was game 1 and he was still below average.

And he's carrying Wade this year but Wade was easily the best playoff performer of his generation before this season. I haven't seen anything this season to put Lebron over him.

Yeah cant see how anyone can say Lebron was "Amazing" during the Celtics series in 2010, he was probably thinking about Miami well before that series finished it was shades of the 2011 finals, he was passive just like he is to an extent this series. I watched that series and knew immediately he was bolting and Cavs fans probably felt the same that's why they were so pissed with his performance.

[MaliBrah]

Bob, if you have access, what was the Spurs' starting line-up's ORtg yesterday?

probably a trillion

[colts18]

Bob, if you have access, what was the Spurs' starting line-up's ORtg yesterday?

120 O rating. But they were -1 overall in 17.3 minutes

[sp6r=underrated]

I forgot about the Pistons in 07. They still weren't that good but whatever.

Except they were a very good team. They won 53 games. They went 8-2 going into the ECF. Their point differential was solid (but not spectacular). They were in the middle of a long run when they were solid contenders. To say they weren't that good isn't true.

Lebron shot 35% against Boston even after the 45 point game. Your never going to convince me that was impressive because 35% is vey unimpressive.

The Celtics were a GOAT level defensive club. Look at what they did to Bryant in the finals. He did play poorly in the first two games but over the final 5 games he was convincingly wrecking havoc on the Celtics defense and turned in a GOAT level single game performance in G7.

This is despite the fact that the Celtics were FAR better than the Cavs that year. To be unimpressed with that performance is a sign you don't factor in quality of opposition and teammates.

I'm not going to convince you because you don't want to be convinced.

Lebron's teammates hitting shots wasn't the problem in 09. It was everyone on the team including Lebron not playing defense.

Perhaps Lebron could have played better defense but even if he didn't if Mo Williams and the rest of the Cavs hit the open shots they were hitting all year they win that series comfortably. 35, 8, 8, .59 TS% against the best defense in the NBA is god-level offense.

Saying this series is anything but an amazing performance shows you grade individual performance based on which team won.

In 2010 he averaged about 7 turnovers a game in the 3 straight losses and in pretty sure he almost went 2 4th quarters without scoring. Again not impressive.

You're not impressed cause your biased. He had one bad game in G5. I'll concede that. In G6 he was rebounding like prime Rodman and was the only Cavs player who he was even remotely competent on offense at that point. The turnovers were mainly a product that he had to do everything.

Overall for the entire series he was slaughtering an excellent defense in the Celtics. His performance was far better than any of Kobe's performances against SAS from 02-04 and he gets praised for those games.

04 Finals was bad but at least Kobd tried and had 1 good game. Lebron's best game was game 1 and he was still below average.

It seems pretty clear that to you trying is shooting.

And he's carrying Wade this year but Wade was easily the best playoff performer of his generation before this season. I haven't seen anything this season to put Lebron over him.

uh no. Lebron slaughters Wade in PS performance since he's gone to Miami and had a clear advantage in the Cleveland days as well.

[E-Balla]

If you think shooting 35% is great your clearly biased. In 08 against Boston he averaged 23.7/6.7/7.8 on 45 TS before game 7 and overall he shot on 48 TS and had a 96 ORTG because he turned the all over 5.3 times a game. No way in hell am I calling that good and your clearly showing your bias by acting like it is because he played good in 2 of 7 games. What Kobe did against them doesn't matter (not helping Lebron's case by using a player that was better than him as an example though. Not calling it a failure but it's damn sure not in the best of a generation category.

In the last 3 games against Boston in 2010 Lebron put up 21.3/11.3/8.3 on 34% shooting with 6.3 turnovers a game. Clearly not good by any standard.

Overall he averaged 26.8/9.3/7.2 on 55.6 TS and had a 106 ORTG but they lost because he choked.

Also if you think Kobe being too aggressive in 04 is a bigger issue than Lebron's Copperfield act in 2011 your clearly just blindly defending Lebron.


Now Wade is easily a stronger playoff performer. I don't even need to post the numbers. Lebron's outplayed Wade 2 years to 1 together and Wade was easily better before they got together.

[sp6r=underrated]

If you think shooting 35% is great your clearly biased. In 08 against Boston he averaged 23.7/6.7/7.8 on 45 TS before game 7 and overall he shot on 48 TS and had a 96 ORTG because he turned the all over 5.3 times a game. No way in hell am I calling that good and your clearly showing your bias by acting like it is because he played good in 2 of 7 games.

For the final 5 games of the series he was an excellent player despite playing on a gawd awful basketball team against a GOAT defense. He played 2 god-level games, 2 awful ones and 3 good games. That is an excellent series when you evaluate it in context.

The 08 Celtics are maybe the best defensive single season team of all time. The 08 Cavs were complete trash. On paper the series should have been a 5 game laugher. Instead the Cavs forced the Celtics to 7 games. They actually outscored them over the series. They put up a far better fight against that Boston club than any other team despite having the weakest roster by far spots 2-12.

The reason they did that was because their superstar carried a clearly over matched club to within 2 minutes of victory. That is an excellent series.

What Kobe did against them doesn't matter (not helping Lebron's case by using a player that was better than him as an example though. Not calling it a failure but it's damn sure not in the best of a generation category.

It provides context for evaluating what Lebron did. Kobe's supporting cast was far better than Lebron's and yet the Cavs actually gave a better fight. There is no reason the Cavs should have been in that series. If you watch the games it is pretty clear that the reason Cleveland was able to compete was Lebron James.

In the last 3 games against Boston in 2010 Lebron put up 21.3/11.3/8.3 on 34% shooting with 6.3 turnovers a game. Clearly not good by any standard.

Overall he averaged 26.8/9.3/7.2 on 55.6 TS and had a 106 ORTG but they lost because he choked.

Those last 3 games look bad entirely because of G5. You're lumping them together because you want to make his performance look worse than it was. You want people to think he stunk in the final 3 games.

Overall for the series he was great. Those are monster numbers. If his teammates showed up at all they win that series.

All great players have awful single games in the PS. Almost all of them have their teams win some of those games because the rest of the supporting cast plays great. That never happened for Lebron in Cleveland any time his play was off they lost.

When he left they suffered the single worse drop off in NBA history. Worse than the Bulls did in 1999. To say they lost that series because of him is a sign of being a hater.

Basketball isn't tennis.

Also if you think Kobe being too aggressive in 04 is a bigger issue than Lebron's Copperfield act in 2011 your clearly just blindly defending Lebron.

Kobe had a teammate who was slaughtering the opposition in Shaq.
Lebron had a teammate who was slaughtering the opposition in Wade.
Lebron played back on offense because his teammate was dominating.
Kobe refused to pass his teammate the ball who was getting high percentage shots and instead continued chucking.
Lebron was overly deferential to Wade but chucking the basketball when you have a teammate who is playing great offensively is far worse.

Now Wade is easily a stronger playoff performer. I don't even need to post the numbers. Lebron's outplayed Wade 2 years to 1 together and Wade was easily better before they got together.

I think I know the real reason you won't post the numbers.

[thebottomline]

LeBron's TS% this series is 49.4 and if you take out the one game where he shot well (he actually didn't in that game either, inflated his percentages with the garbage time buckets at the end) he's at 45.4 TS%.

That is beyond awful, even Kobe didn't shoot that poorly in any of his Finals and he was facing better defenses.

Kobe's had two Finals TS% worse than LeBron's right now. 49% is really unbelievable though after scoring on 64% in the regular season. What a crash.