The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[Bruh Man]

Atlanta Hawks also gave the Celtics a harder time than the Lakers but it doesn't mean much, Lakers weren't healthy and the NBA is all about match-ups but it seems some people can't understand that. People go out of thier way to defend Lebron instead of calling a spade a spade. Lebron played like crap because because Wade played well? C'mon son, yet Wade got nothing but flak for playing bad in the Bulls series.

I'm probably less of a Wade fan than Lebron but I would easily take a prime Wade over Lebron come playoff time.

[E-Balla]

2010 Lebron vs Celtics:

Game 4 - 22/9/8, 7 turnovers, 48 TS, 83 ORTG
Game 5 - 15/6/7, 3 turnovers, 39 TS, 86 ORTG
Game 6 - 27/19/10, 9 turnovers, 51 TS, 92 ORTG

All 3 games were bad. Idk how you can say different. Your obviously lying about what he did to not make the last 3 games all look crappy.


And in 08 they were in it because Boston was slacking (just like against Atlanta - unless your saying Josh Smith's as good as Lebron). In the first 4 games of the series where Cleveland was 2-2 with a +10 point differential Lebron averaged 18.8/6.3/9.0 on 39 TS with a 81 ORTG. In Cleveland's first 2 wins Lebron put up 21/5.5/10.5 on 47 TS. Stop acting like he was great in these series because you can go back to the numbers and clearly see he wasn't.

[TheChosen618]

Some of you guys need to factor in how defenses are playing Lebron.

It's obvious for not just Lebron, but for any player that they would put up much bigger and better numbers if they play 1 on 1 opposed to getting double/triple teams, trapped, and being the primary focus for the defense to shut you down.

Lets take 2011 Dwight Howard for example. The Atlanta Hawks gameplan in the post-season was to pretty much shut down all of his shooters but let Dwight get his. They didn't think Dwight would be able to beat them by himself and the Hawks guessed correctly because they won that series in 6. Dwight put up amazing numbers in that series (outside of the turnovers) but that was by design.

Lebron? Pretty much the same way from 2010 to 2009 and even 2013 to 2012.

The Magic's 2009 gameplan was to let Lebron do his thing but stop his team from shooting well. He did sometimes get doubled and what not, but it wasn't very much. For the most part, their goal was to stop everyone else and it worked and they won.

The Celtics' 2010 gameplan was to stop Lebron by constantly surrounding the paint and helping at the right time. It didn't help that Lebron's jump shot got cold and it didn't help that he also suffered that elbow injury (save the talk about it being fake, there were x-rays that revealed it was legit).

[sp6r=underrated]

Atlanta Hawks also gave the Celtics a harder time than the Lakers but it doesn't mean much,

That isn't true. Even though the Hawks took it 7 and the Lakers only went 6 there was no chance Atlanta was ever going to win that series. Point differential needs to be taken with a grain of salt in the PS but the stats are overwhelming the Celtics were slaughtering the Hawks in their wins while the games against LA were closer. LAL had a chance to win. Atlanta didn't.

Lakers weren't healthy

Even with the injury to Bynum the Lakers supporting cast was far better than the Cavs. It is laughable to deny that.

and the NBA is all about match-ups but it seems some people can't understand that.

at the idea the Cavs had a better supporting cast for matching up with LAL than Cleveland. This is ludicrous.

People go out of thier way to defend Lebron instead of calling a spade a spade.

no Lebron has a cult of haters who go out of their way to attack him anytime his team loses because they are butthurt that people notice how great some of his seasons are.

Lebron played like crap because because Wade played well? C'mon son, yet Wade got nothing but flak for playing bad in the Bulls series.

He was overly deferential and I criticized him for it but his performance was still far better than Kobe chucking 20fters while Shaq was slaughtering the Detroit frontline. It simply isn't true that Lebron turned in the worse finals performance and I called him out on it.

I'm probably less of a Wade fan than Lebron but I would easily take a prime Wade over Lebron come playoff time.

[/quote]

I wish I was a GM in your league because my team would slaughter yours with equal supporting casts. Enjoy the clearly inferior player.

[nikomCH]

LeBron's TS% this series is 49.4 and if you take out the one game where he shot well (he actually didn't in that game either, inflated his percentages with the garbage time buckets at the end) he's at 45.4 TS%.

That is beyond awful, even Kobe didn't shoot that poorly in any of his Finals and he was facing better defenses.

Kobe's had two Finals TS% worse than LeBron's right now. 49% is really unbelievable though after scoring on 64% in the regular season. What a crash.

I didn't check just went off memory. 04 should have been obvious I guess. I don't really count 00 though, he got injured and it was his first finals

The reason I really have no sympathy for LeBron is because over the years people have constantly pointed out Kobe's poor efficiency in the Finals and ignored the fact that the defense was almost always geared to stop him exclusively. Even in the 04 Finals, yes KOBE was the one the Pistons wanted to stop. He frequently had 2-3 guys on him any time he tried to make a move, mean while Shaq got single coverage 90% of the time. And Kobe didn't even force anything most of the time, he legitimately tried to run the offense. Now people are seeing what happens to every great player when an elite defense is focused on one guy.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Some of you guys need to factor in how defenses are playing Lebron.

It's obvious for not just Lebron, but for any player that they would put up much bigger and better numbers if they play 1 on 1 opposed to getting double/triple teams, trapped, and being the primary focus for the defense to shut you down.

I think Lebron's lack of perimeter shooting is his biggest achilles heel. It's not like SA is throwing Bowen at him, or that they have TD/DRob anchoring the paint. Their strategy is to limit turnovers and transitions baskets for Lebron, and to dare him to shoot mid-range shots. SA would never do that to Kobe/Dirk/KD because they would be killed, but with Lebron it's been the biggest factor in the Finals.

[The Infamous1]

LeBron's TS% this series is 49.4 and if you take out the one game where he shot well (he actually didn't in that game either, inflated his percentages with the garbage time buckets at the end) he's at 45.4 TS%.

That is beyond awful, even Kobe didn't shoot that poorly in any of his Finals and he was facing better defenses.

Kobe's had two Finals TS% worse than LeBron's right now. 49% is really unbelievable though after scoring on 64% in the regular season. What a crash.

I didn't check just went off memory. 04 should have been obvious I guess. I don't really count 00 though, he got injured and it was his first finals

The reason I really have no sympathy for LeBron is because over the years people have constantly pointed out Kobe's poor efficiency in the Finals and ignored the fact that the defense was almost always geared to stop him exclusively. Even in the 04 Finals, yes KOBE was the one the Pistons wanted to stop. He frequently had 2-3 guys on him any time he tried to make a move, mean while Shaq got single coverage 90% of the time. And Kobe didn't even force anything most of the time, he legitimately tried to run the offense. Now people are seeing what happens to every great player when an elite defense is focused on one guy.

People always forget this when talking about the 2004 finals. They just look at stats

[TheChosen618]

Some of you guys need to factor in how defenses are playing Lebron.

It's obvious for not just Lebron, but for any player that they would put up much bigger and better numbers if they play 1 on 1 opposed to getting double/triple teams, trapped, and being the primary focus for the defense to shut you down.

I think Lebron's lack of perimeter shooting is his biggest achilles heel. It's not like SA is throwing Bowen at him, or that they have TD/DRob anchoring the paint. Their strategy is to limit turnovers and transitions baskets for Lebron, and to dare him to shoot mid-range shots. SA would never do that to Kobe/Dirk/KD because they would be killed, but with Lebron it's been the biggest factor in the Finals.

They do have TD anchoring the paint.

Leborn has been somewhat passive in terms of taking shots and it's more than likely a lost of confidence in his shot. I agree with that. I also think fatigue is playing a role in his struggles as well.

The Spurs are playing Lebron close to how the Bulls played him in the ECSF with how they are surrounding the paint and doubling Lebron. They are making him pass up shots and making his teammates beat them instead of him.

The combination of fatigue, lost of confidence, and the Spurs defense is the reason as to why he is struggling in scoring in this series.

The Spurs are not defending Lebron the same way they use to defend Kobe. The way the Spurs would defend Kobe is the way the Pacers tried to defend Lebron in the ECF. They would have Bowen guard Kobe and then have Duncan and Robinson man the paint. Kobe would kill them though because of his deadly jump shot and scoring ability. The same thing happened in the last round. They made Paul George guard Lebron 1 on 1 and have Hibbert anchor the paint. Lebron was killing the Pacers with his jump shot.

It does seem like an on going trend that Lebron's jump shot disappears in the finals though.

[sp6r=underrated]

2010 Lebron vs Celtics:

Game 4 - 22/9/8, 7 turnovers, 48 TS, 83 ORTG
Game 5 - 15/6/7, 3 turnovers, 39 TS, 86 ORTG
Game 6 - 27/19/10, 9 turnovers, 51 TS, 92 ORTG

All 3 games were bad. Idk how you can say different. Your obviously lying about what he did to not make the last 3 games all look crappy.

He rebounds like a prime Rodman in G6 and is the only Cavs player who can create his shot. He shot the ball much better than his teammates. His turnovers were mainly a product of the fact the Celtics could focus their entire defense on him. That was a good game. The only reason Cleveland even hung in it was him.

He also crushed in the first 3 games in that series. Three great games. 2 good ones and 1 bad game is a good series. Many star players have turned in far worse series and had their teams won because they had a competent supporting cast. See, Tim Duncan's 05 NBA finals performance for proof of that. Lebron didn't. His supporting cast was historically bad and that was proven when they turned in the biggest drop off in NBA HISTORY when he left.

Doesn't seem possible if he was a choker.

Anyone who attacks Lebron for his performance in the 2010 ECS beyond his one bad game is a hater. You're a hater and the fact that you actually had the gaull to attack him for his performance in the 09 ECF and pretend Detroit wasn't a good team is proof.

And in 08 they were in it because Boston was slacking (just like against Atlanta - unless your saying Josh Smith's as good as Lebron).

yes, Boston decided they wanted it to be a 1 point game with 2 minutes to go in G7 for the kicks. You're a joke at this point. Pretending the Atlanta series in which Boston won every game by 20+ points and only lost close games to a Cleveland series which was a nail-biter.

at slacking. Seriously if they were slacking why was it a 1 point game with 2 minutes to go.

In the first 4 games of the series where Cleveland was 2-2 with a +10 point differential Lebron averaged 18.8/6.3/9.0 on 39 TS with a 81 ORTG.

I've already acknowledged he played like crap in the first 2 games.

In Cleveland's first 2 wins Lebron put up 21/5.5/10.5 on 47 TS. Stop acting like he was great in these series because you can go back to the numbers and clearly see he wasn't.

He was setting up his teammates for wide open three pointers and was causing an ATG defense to start imploding in those 2 games. They had to send every player they had at him and he burned them for it with great passing. Those 2 games were excellent regardless of his TS%.

If Cleveland outscores them by 2 points in the final 2 minutes that would be regarded, rightfully so, as one of the ATG upsets caused by a superstar going Nova.

Sadly it didn't so haters like you can blindly cite his TS% while ignoring the quality of his teammates and the quality of the defense he faced.

[sp6r=underrated]

The reason I really have no sympathy for LeBron is because over the years people have constantly pointed out Kobe's poor efficiency in the Finals and ignored the fact that the defense was almost always geared to stop him exclusively. Even in the 04 Finals, yes KOBE was the one the Pistons wanted to stop. He frequently had 2-3 guys on him any time he tried to make a move, mean while Shaq got single coverage 90% of the time. And Kobe didn't even force anything most of the time, he legitimately tried to run the offense. Now people are seeing what happens to every great player when an elite defense is focused on one guy.

This is a joke. Kobe wasn't running the offense at all. Poor shooting is excusable when you don't have superior teammates to pass to. If Kobe was willing to dump the ball into Shaq more in that series LAL performs much better. They probably win G4 for sure. He wasn't running the offense.

That wasn't an outlier either. Throughout the WCP Shaq was tearing it up and Kobe insisted on chucking.

[colts18]

people have constantly pointed out Kobe's poor efficiency in the Finals and ignored the fact that the defense was almost always geared to stop him exclusively. Even in the 04 Finals, yes KOBE was the one the Pistons wanted to stop. He frequently had 2-3 guys on him any time he tried to make a move, mean while Shaq got single coverage 90% of the time.

I can't believe you believe in this non sense. There has never been a team that completely 100% focused on Kobe always putting 2 or 3 guys on him, while letting Shaq get single coverage for the whole game. That has never happened. No team would be foolish enough to do that. Pretty much every team doubled Shaq or else they would have been lit up for 40 points. No one put 2 or 3 guys on Kobe on every play. No team does that to perimeter players. Perimeter players don't really get doubled except for when they are driving to the basket or posting up.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNwbSgKZuE[/youtube]

Look at the video, I see no evidence at all that the Pistons were never doubling Shaq.

[Bruh Man]

Atlanta Hawks also gave the Celtics a harder time than the Lakers but it doesn't mean much,

That isn't true. Even though the Hawks took it 7 and the Lakers only went 6 there was no chance Atlanta was ever going to win that series. Point differential needs to be taken with a grain of salt in the PS but the stats are overwhelming the Celtics were slaughtering the Hawks in their wins while the games against LA were closer. LAL had a chance to win. Atlanta didn't.

Lakers weren't healthy

Even with the injury to Bynum the Lakers supporting cast was far better than the Cavs. It is laughable to deny that.

and the NBA is all about match-ups but it seems some people can't understand that.

at the idea the Cavs had a better supporting cast for matching up with LAL than Cleveland. This is ludicrous.

People go out of thier way to defend Lebron instead of calling a spade a spade.

no Lebron has a cult of haters who go out of their way to attack him anytime his team loses because they are butthurt that people notice how great some of his seasons are.

Lebron played like crap because because Wade played well? C'mon son, yet Wade got nothing but flak for playing bad in the Bulls series.

He was overly deferential and I criticized him for it but his performance was still far better than Kobe chucking 20fters while Shaq was slaughtering the Detroit frontline. It simply isn't true that Lebron turned in the worse finals performance and I called him out on it.

I'm probably less of a Wade fan than Lebron but I would easily take a prime Wade over Lebron come playoff time.

I wish I was a GM in your league because my team would slaughter yours with equal supporting casts. Enjoy the clearly inferior player.[/quote]
You seem to want to make this about Kobe and the lakers and I understand why but what I don't understand is why you think Lebron is playing great in this finals or against Dirk back in 2011 or even Boston in 2010.

[E-Balla]

He rebounds like a prime Rodman in G6 and is the only Cavs player who can create his shot. He shot the ball much better than his teammates. His turnovers were mainly a product of the fact the Celtics could focus their entire defense on him. That was a good game. The only reason Cleveland even hung in it was him.

Defensive rebounding on an individual level is so overrated. Who's to say Cleveland wouldn't have gotten every last one of those rebounds. The team had a 87.8 DRB% on that game and Boston never crashes the offensive boards. Those 16 DRB made a very minuscule defense especially compared to the 9 turnovers. Also your giving him a break for 9 turnovers? That has to be a joke. Who was the last player to turnover the ball 9 times this year. Don't worry I'll wait.

[Chalky White]

San Antonio threw comprabale defensive pressure at Durant in last seasons WCF finals and he killed them. Only difference being they weren't daring Durant to shoot.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxu5W9s7adA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1XnERl8mMPQ

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gFJClgU0voY

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvtheB2AVSU

LeBron, if he's as good as the hype, needs to impose his will.

[Chalky White]

people have constantly pointed out Kobe's poor efficiency in the Finals and ignored the fact that the defense was almost always geared to stop him exclusively. Even in the 04 Finals, yes KOBE was the one the Pistons wanted to stop. He frequently had 2-3 guys on him any time he tried to make a move, mean while Shaq got single coverage 90% of the time.

I can't believe you believe in this non sense. There has never been a team that completely 100% focused on Kobe always putting 2 or 3 guys on him, while letting Shaq get single coverage for the whole game. That has never happened. No team would be foolish enough to do that. Pretty much every team doubled Shaq or else they would have been lit up for 40 points. No one put 2 or 3 guys on Kobe on every play. No team does that to perimeter players. Perimeter players don't really get doubled except for when they are driving to the basket or posting up.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNwbSgKZuE[/youtube]

Look at the video, I see no evidence at all that the Pistons were never doubling Shaq.

Houston was sending full court double teams and even triple teams at the top of the key against KD in the first round. Great players simply shouldn't allow defenses, no matter how sophisticated, to dictate the effectiveness of their game. Especially someone whose supposed to have GOAT level talent.

[nikomCH]

I have watched the entire series over again, not some stupid highlight video. Don't waste my time responding with that non sense

[colts18]

I have watched the entire series over again, not some stupid highlight video. Don't waste my time responding with that non sense

Please show me the plays where Kobe was getting triple teamed when he got the ball in the perimeter

[JordansBulls]

Isnt this thread supposed to be about this year? Why are we bringing up stuff from past seasons here?

[nikomCH]

I have watched the entire series over again, not some stupid highlight video. Don't waste my time responding with that non sense

Please show me the plays where Kobe was getting triple teamed when he got the ball in the perimeter

I never said Kobe was tripled on the perimeter, I said when he made his move he was either doubled or tripled. Most of the time those extra defenders came when he was within 15 feet.

I'm also not going to waste my time going through those games again to show you every instance. Every game 1-5 is up on youtube, you're free to watch them yourself.

I specifically went back to watch that series because I got sick and tired of listening to brainwashed people trash Kobe for that series based on the opinions of other people who have no idea what they're talking about.

Kobe spent the bulk of that series running the offense exactly the way they wanted and he was also arguably the Lakers best defender which you will NEVER hear anyone credit him for. He was working his ass off guarding Hamilton (literally played some of the best perimeter defense I have ever seen in Game 1) and even had to take Billups because Payton and Fisher's dumbasses had no idea what they were doing and kept going under screens. Offensively he was forced into some ridiculously tough jumpers at times which sometimes were a result of bad shot selection but mostly because the Pistons refused to give him anything easy. With no one else but Shaq generating offense this was practically the only thing he could do.

[The Infamous1]

Some of you guys need to factor in how defenses are playing Lebron.

It's obvious for not just Lebron, but for any player that they would put up much bigger and better numbers if they play 1 on 1 opposed to getting double/triple teams, trapped, and being the primary focus for the defense to shut you down.

Lets take 2011 Dwight Howard for example. The Atlanta Hawks gameplan in the post-season was to pretty much shut down all of his shooters but let Dwight get his. They didn't think Dwight would be able to beat them by himself and the Hawks guessed correctly because they won that series in 6. Dwight put up amazing numbers in that series (outside of the turnovers) but that was by design.

Lebron? Pretty much the same way from 2010 to 2009 and even 2013 to 2012.

The Magic's 2009 gameplan was to let Lebron do his thing but stop his team from shooting well. He did sometimes get doubled and what not, but it wasn't very much. For the most part, their goal was to stop everyone else and it worked and they won.

The Celtics' 2010 gameplan was to stop Lebron by constantly surrounding the paint and helping at the right time. It didn't help that Lebron's jump shot got cold and it didn't help that he also suffered that elbow injury (save the talk about it being fake, there were x-rays that revealed it was legit).

This is true. I'd put wades series against Boston in 2010 in the same boat.