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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#581 » by Dat2U » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:40 pm

sfam wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Bennett has all star physical tools because he can s ore. At PF he will be a poor man's Blake Griffin. It depends who is around him. I like other players a LOT more in this draft

A poor man's Blake Griffin who can hit FTs and the three ball is hardly a bad thing to get in a low quality draft.


Everyone keeps harping about this magical upside with Bennett. I guess because a 250 lb guy can face up and score everyone gets excited. But exactly what upside does a 6-7 PF have? Name the last 6-7 PF to be a core piece of a championship contender.

If the goal is to compete deep into the playoffs, how does drafting a 6-7 tweener who's a defensive sieve get us there?

It's been how many years since Larry Johnson or Charles Barkley laced up the sneakers?

I'm looking for examples people can point to and say, I can see Bennett having that type of impact and it will really make a difference long term. I don't see any. All I see is when tweeners get drafted high, they inevitably disappoint. If we have to go back 10-15 years to find the best examples of success for Bennett, he's probably the wrong choice.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#582 » by Dat2U » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:46 pm

fishercob wrote:I am coming around on Anthony Bennett -- or at least that his offensive potential is really significant. With him it seems all about whatever team who drafts him and their ability to turn into a focused and willing defender. If they can, he could be an allstar. He's not my choice for #3, but if he was the pick I could talk myself into it. Dat would kick and scream, but that would feel like a warm blanket of familiarity.


I would be apoplectic and inconsolable. My 3 strongest feelings on this draft. Olynyk will play in the NBA for the next 12 years or so. McLemore will inevitably disappoint and Bennett is a disaster waiting to happen as a top 3 pick (the later he's drafted the better for the team that gets him).
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#583 » by Dark Faze » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:51 pm

sfam wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
sfam wrote:McGee cant even dream of having the offensive game Bennett does. But more to the point being lazy on D at times is very different from being a knucklehead or going around calling yourself fake names. Bennett shows a real IQ for scoring, and really doesn't dawdle with the ball. He doesn't look like a 6-7 McGee at all.


His defense is worse than McGees. McGee doesn't really give up on plays, he's just too aggressive and not smart defensively so he's either playing the PNR badly or falling for pump fakes.

Bennett will literally just let guys get layups at the rim. Look at the updated draftexpress scouting video. He's awful.

I've seen it, and still think his offensive impact makes it worth it. Did you check out the first half, per chance, or did you skip directly yo the weaknesses? Some 19 year-olds aren't mature yet. Porter is clearly more mature, but that doesn't alone make him a better pick. If we get Bennett to give better effort on D, his talent flat out wins out as a draft choice. And McGee's problem isn't effort, its his BBIQ and the desire to make a highlight reel every play. That to me is probably worse. Bottom line I'm willing to take the risk because I think Bennett brings us a skillset upfront that fills some extreme needs (stretch 4, isolation player, finishing thru contact, getting to the FT line in crunch situations).



Defense isn't about maturity though, it's literally half of the game of basketball that you learn as you grow up. It's not just ' okay I'm going to start trying now'--it's every bit as much of a thing he needed to be growing from the minute he started playing games in middleschool, just like his offense. You can't just go into the best league in the world after having not tried or learned half of the game and all of a sudden become good at it. So then you're throwing the fact that he's undersized and unmotivated in the equation and its a disaster waiting to happen.

And I saw his offense. If I knew it was going to translate I'd like him more, but I'm not sure. He's not that fast for an NBA 4 and he's busting up guys on the college level in a bad conference that he's significantly bigger and faster than, which won't be the case in the league.

I'm concerned because he's going to have to work so hard to get his own shot and the guy has asthma and a history of injury. If he couldn't survive high school and college without getting banged up then how is he going to stay on the floor against guys that are stronger and taller than him in the NBA?

With Bennett there's a lot of "I hope he wills".

I hope he doesn't get injured again, despite having a history of it happening basically every year.

I hope he can learn to play defense or actually get motivated to try.

I hope he can overcome his height.

But yea, my concerns with Bennett are well documented.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#584 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:53 pm

Dat2U wrote:
fishercob wrote:I am coming around on Anthony Bennett -- or at least that his offensive potential is really significant. With him it seems all about whatever team who drafts him and their ability to turn into a focused and willing defender. If they can, he could be an allstar. He's not my choice for #3, but if he was the pick I could talk myself into it. Dat would kick and scream, but that would feel like a warm blanket of familiarity.


I would be apoplectic and inconsolable. My 3 strongest feelings on this draft. Olynyk will play in the NBA for the next 12 years or so. McLemore will inevitably disappoint and Bennett is a disaster waiting to happen as a top 3 pick (the later he's drafted the better for the team that gets him).

Kudo's in advance to The Klynyk for having a Tony Massenburg-like career. :wink:
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#585 » by sashae » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:55 pm

I'm on the anti-Bennett bus, as well. Too many obvious downsides (frequently injured? doesn't want to play D? non-PF size? SIGN ME UP!) and not enough upside. My choices are, by far, Oladipo and Porter as a flip-the-coin 1a/1b -- I'd not be happy with either. Noel worries me a bit due to his size and injuries, but I think he'll be productive defensively in the long run. Len... well, it feels like Ernie will draft either Len or Bennett. And that's not good.

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#586 » by tontoz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:57 pm

macgyver893 wrote:Nets fan here... If you guys draft Noel, would you consider trading Nene for Humphries (bare bones of the trade)? After this season then you would have Hump and Okafor coming off the books... more space to attract other pieces to play with Wall, Beal, and Noel. Thoughts?



Many of us would. Not sure about our GM though.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#587 » by rockymac52 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:00 pm

tontoz wrote:
macgyver893 wrote:Nets fan here... If you guys draft Noel, would you consider trading Nene for Humphries (bare bones of the trade)? After this season then you would have Hump and Okafor coming off the books... more space to attract other pieces to play with Wall, Beal, and Noel. Thoughts?



Many of us would. Not sure about our GM though.


Personally if you include the 22nd pick, then I'd start to seriously consider. But yeah, don't see the Wizards front office pursuing such a trade.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#588 » by Dat2U » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:00 pm

GMs who take the risk on guys like Bennett are the ones out of a job in a few short years.

Bennett's defensive effort is absolutely disgusting. I remember watching footage of Javale at Nevada and he was considered one of the worst low post defenders ever scouted. His awareness was mind numbingly bad. But it had little to do with his effort & energy and more to do with his ADD and overall b-ball IQ (so much for being the son of basketball players). Bennet just gives zero f*cks about defense and it shows. That's very bothersome. I haven't seen such an extensive example of non-effort defensively from an NBA prospect that I've scouted with one exception, Renardo Sidney and he was a complete dog and headcase.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#589 » by tontoz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:01 pm

I would have no problem drafting Noel. I have been assuming that he will be gone when we pick and i still believe that is the case.

The Cavs missed on JV and Drummond in the last two drafts. I think they will have a hard time passing on Noel unless his medical issues are a major problem.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#590 » by Dat2U » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:01 pm

tontoz wrote:
macgyver893 wrote:Nets fan here... If you guys draft Noel, would you consider trading Nene for Humphries (bare bones of the trade)? After this season then you would have Hump and Okafor coming off the books... more space to attract other pieces to play with Wall, Beal, and Noel. Thoughts?



Many of us would. Not sure about our GM though.


Only if a 2014 1st rounder is a part of that deal. Nene for Humphries straight up? No.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#591 » by sfam » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:10 pm

Dat2U wrote:
sfam wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Bennett has all star physical tools because he can s ore. At PF he will be a poor man's Blake Griffin. It depends who is around him. I like other players a LOT more in this draft

A poor man's Blake Griffin who can hit FTs and the three ball is hardly a bad thing to get in a low quality draft.


Everyone keeps harping about this magical upside with Bennett. I guess because a 250 lb guy can face up and score everyone gets excited. But exactly what upside does a 6-7 PF have? Name the last 6-7 PF to be a core piece of a championship contender.

If the goal is to compete deep into the playoffs, how does drafting a 6-7 tweener who's a defensive sieve get us there?

It's been how many years since Larry Johnson or Charles Barkley laced up the sneakers?

I'm looking for examples people can point to and say, I can see Bennett having that type of impact and it will really make a difference long term. I don't see any. All I see is when tweeners get drafted high, they inevitably disappoint. If we have to go back 10-15 years to find the best examples of success for Bennett, he's probably the wrong choice.

Well, he may be 6-8 at this point and we've had this conversation - people have listed lots of 6-8 folks like Faried, Paul Millsap and so forth. But again, similar to Barkley or LJ, most folks with that body type don't have elite athletics. The did, as does Bennett. I'm not arguing its a safe pick. If Bennet continues to give no effort on D than it will be a bad choice. But I am arguing that its worth the risk, and that with Nene and Okafor, we actually have a great environment to turn that part of Bennett's game around. Again, I think his upside makes it worth the risk, especially in this more open, small ball era. Bennett's game seems tailor made for today's rules.

Others clearly disagree.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#592 » by sfam » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:14 pm

Dark Faze wrote:And I saw his offense. If I knew it was going to translate I'd like him more, but I'm not sure. He's not that fast for an NBA 4 and he's busting up guys on the college level in a bad conference that he's significantly bigger and faster than, which won't be the case in the league.

He's not fast for an NBA 4??? Are you kidding me?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#593 » by Dark Faze » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:20 pm

sfam wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:And I saw his offense. If I knew it was going to translate I'd like him more, but I'm not sure. He's not that fast for an NBA 4 and he's busting up guys on the college level in a bad conference that he's significantly bigger and faster than, which won't be the case in the league.

He's not fast for an NBA 4??? Are you kidding me?


I don't think he's that fast with the ball in the half court. He's fast for his size in transition, but he'll be going to work in half court situations 90% of the time.

I think he won't be able to do anything against bigger SF's that guard him like Kawhi, Ariza, Battier, etc. Those guys have quicker feet and are going to wall him off when he tries to drive to the rim and his handle won't be good enough to get around them.

He's just going to get killed in cross matches off PNR's when he gets switched onto guards or has to defend SF's on the perimeter.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#594 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:20 pm

sfam wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:And I saw his offense. If I knew it was going to translate I'd like him more, but I'm not sure. He's not that fast for an NBA 4 and he's busting up guys on the college level in a bad conference that he's significantly bigger and faster than, which won't be the case in the league.

He's not fast for an NBA 4??? Are you kidding me?

He's much faster going up court on offense than he is at getting back on defense. Funny how that works with some players.

Also, ya gotta wonder if he'll have fitness issues with his asthma and other physical breakdowns - how will those affect his ability to play starters' minutes in fast-paced games.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#595 » by Dat2U » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:24 pm

sfam wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
sfam wrote:A poor man's Blake Griffin who can hit FTs and the three ball is hardly a bad thing to get in a low quality draft.


Everyone keeps harping about this magical upside with Bennett. I guess because a 250 lb guy can face up and score everyone gets excited. But exactly what upside does a 6-7 PF have? Name the last 6-7 PF to be a core piece of a championship contender.

If the goal is to compete deep into the playoffs, how does drafting a 6-7 tweener who's a defensive sieve get us there?

It's been how many years since Larry Johnson or Charles Barkley laced up the sneakers?

I'm looking for examples people can point to and say, I can see Bennett having that type of impact and it will really make a difference long term. I don't see any. All I see is when tweeners get drafted high, they inevitably disappoint. If we have to go back 10-15 years to find the best examples of success for Bennett, he's probably the wrong choice.

Well, he may be 6-8 at this point and we've had this conversation - people have listed lots of 6-8 folks like Faried, Paul Millsap and so forth. But again, similar to Barkley or LJ, most folks with that body type don't have elite athletics. The did, as does Bennett. I'm not arguing its a safe pick. If Bennet continues to give no effort on D than it will be a bad choice. But I am arguing that its worth the risk, and that with Nene and Okafor, we actually have a great environment to turn that part of Bennett's game around. Again, I think his upside makes it worth the risk, especially in this more open, small ball era. Bennett's game seems tailor made for today's rules.

Others clearly disagree.


I guess what I'm asking is what do you mean when you say "upside"? What exactly is Bennett's upside? You've told me about how much you love his offensive game and how he can work on his flaws, but what's the end game here? What makes Bennett so worthy of the risk beyond any others being considered?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#596 » by WizarDynasty » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:25 pm

Bennett fails the 9'2 standing reach for a powerforward on the second level of the pyramid. It's not a deal breaker. Failing the first level of the pyramid and not having 2/3 of explosiveness, body control with the basketball, and failing to demonstrate consistent ability to finish through contact with a defender between them and the basketball in college is a deal breaker.
LIke I said, Adams is better than Bennett.
Now to compare Bennett to McGee is really off. McGee's problem were physical. He isn't an explosive athlete and he has poor body control with the basketball out in space. He started to finish through contact a little better but he didn't really improve much.
McGee has extremely slow footspeed defensively and absolutely zero lower body strength in comparison to starting nba centers. That's a physical problem.
The biggest problem with Bennett is his stamina on defense. He definitely attempts to conserve his energy for offense which is his bread and butter to getting into the NBA. Do you blame him? But being around, Okafor, Nene, Wall, and even Beal will be a good for him. All 4 of those guys pride themselves on defense and I see them pushing Bennett's stamina. Bennett will be the best fit after steven adams.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#597 » by GhostsOfGil » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:29 pm

Knighthonor wrote:
GhostsOfGil wrote:If Porter and Noel are there at 3, I'd go with Noel. In fact, I'm starting to side with sfam on the Bennett debate. My board is

1. Noel
2. Bennett
3. Porter
4. Zeller
4b. Len


Question, but what your opinion on how Zeller and Len can assist the Wizards long term to get a championship?

Which has higher bust chance in your opinion?


How you feel Bennett will transfer to the pros and what about his weakness? will it be exposed more in the pros than now, or stay same?

Noel, what are some negative aspects to drafting him IYO?


I dont think either Len or Zeller are pieces that can push the Wiz into contention. I think Len has a higher ceiling but bigger bust potential.

I dont know why, but Porter has not really impressed me. People made the argument that Ersan will make us a treadmill team but that's EXACTLY how I view Porter.

Noel's injury history is a potential red flag but it would be foolish to pass on someone with his incredible upside. I have no concerns about his size or offensive polish. Noel will be able to average 5-8 points in transition and lobs alone.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#598 » by sfam » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:34 pm

Dat2U wrote:
sfam wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Everyone keeps harping about this magical upside with Bennett. I guess because a 250 lb guy can face up and score everyone gets excited. But exactly what upside does a 6-7 PF have? Name the last 6-7 PF to be a core piece of a championship contender.

If the goal is to compete deep into the playoffs, how does drafting a 6-7 tweener who's a defensive sieve get us there?

It's been how many years since Larry Johnson or Charles Barkley laced up the sneakers?

I'm looking for examples people can point to and say, I can see Bennett having that type of impact and it will really make a difference long term. I don't see any. All I see is when tweeners get drafted high, they inevitably disappoint. If we have to go back 10-15 years to find the best examples of success for Bennett, he's probably the wrong choice.

Well, he may be 6-8 at this point and we've had this conversation - people have listed lots of 6-8 folks like Faried, Paul Millsap and so forth. But again, similar to Barkley or LJ, most folks with that body type don't have elite athletics. The did, as does Bennett. I'm not arguing its a safe pick. If Bennet continues to give no effort on D than it will be a bad choice. But I am arguing that its worth the risk, and that with Nene and Okafor, we actually have a great environment to turn that part of Bennett's game around. Again, I think his upside makes it worth the risk, especially in this more open, small ball era. Bennett's game seems tailor made for today's rules.

Others clearly disagree.


I guess what I'm asking is what do you mean when you say "upside"? What exactly is Bennett's upside? You've told me about how much you love his offensive game and how he can work on his flaws, but what's the end game here? What makes Bennett so worthy of the risk beyond any others being considered?

His upside is clear. He has the potential to be a dominant offensive player in the NBA - many (including myself) think he can be an all-star. The risk of course are the injuries and defense. But nobody has claimed he is a bad team mate, knucklehead or off court nuisance. So I just don't buy the McGee comparisons.

And you just don't get that skilled without working on your game. The vid from Bennett in highschool showed he was developing his handle and outside offensive skills to accommodate for his smaller size - he understands how to improve his game. I'd be really surprised if he didn't refine his post-up game in the next few years. The question of course is whether he can cut his liabilities on the defensive end. I see lack of effort there, not poor BBIQ. I'm clearly betting we can change that.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#599 » by sfam » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:37 pm

Dark Faze wrote:
sfam wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:And I saw his offense. If I knew it was going to translate I'd like him more, but I'm not sure. He's not that fast for an NBA 4 and he's busting up guys on the college level in a bad conference that he's significantly bigger and faster than, which won't be the case in the league.

He's not fast for an NBA 4??? Are you kidding me?


I don't think he's that fast with the ball in the half court. He's fast for his size in transition, but he'll be going to work in half court situations 90% of the time.

I think he won't be able to do anything against bigger SF's that guard him like Kawhi, Ariza, Battier, etc. Those guys have quicker feet and are going to wall him off when he tries to drive to the rim and his handle won't be good enough to get around them.

He's just going to get killed in cross matches off PNR's when he gets switched onto guards or has to defend SF's on the perimeter.

You're selling him short on offense. Fine, knock his D all you want, but give the kid his due on offense. Bennett will do just fine against Battier and the like - Bennett may look hefty, but he's so not slow. He has great handles for a PF and his outside shot will force defenders to pick their poison. If you come close-up, he has a terrific first step and will drive by them.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII 

Post#600 » by sfam » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:41 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:Bennett fails the 9'2 standing reach for a powerforward on the second level of the pyramid. It's not a deal breaker. Failing the first level of the pyramid and not having 2/3 of explosiveness, body control with the basketball, and failing to demonstrate consistent ability to finish through contact with a defender between them and the basketball in college is a deal breaker.
LIke I said, Adams is better than Bennett.
Now to compare Bennett to McGee is really off. McGee's problem were physical. He isn't an explosive athlete and he has poor body control with the basketball out in space. He started to finish through contact a little better but he didn't really improve much.
McGee has extremely slow footspeed defensively and absolutely zero lower body strength in comparison to starting nba centers. That's a physical problem.
The biggest problem with Bennett is his stamina on defense. He definitely attempts to conserve his energy for offense which is his bread and butter to getting into the NBA. Do you blame him? But being around, Okafor, Nene, Wall, and even Beal will be a good for him. All 4 of those guys pride themselves on defense and I see them pushing Bennett's stamina. Bennett will be the best fit after steven adams.

Adams is only better than Bennett if you don't care about actual basketball skills. Adams has the prototype body, but hasn't proven he knows how to play the game or ever will. He's a fine pick in the back end of the lottery due to his potential though.

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