Celtics and Clippers Deal #2 UPDATE DEAD, DEAD, DEAD

[Justin33]

I'm all for the trade and there is also one thing I think people are forgetting here is that is we do not know what they are going to do with Pierce. I think they try to trade Pierce first before they do a buyout. One team that jumps out to me as a possible trading partner might be Houston. Who could trade us Lin, Asik and Royce White for Pierce and Fab Melo. Just saying!

With Pierce Houston is still a play-off team and if they don't think they can land Dwight Howard they would have cleared out even more money to make a run at Lebron James next off-season if Lebron opts out of his deal. Because Pierce salary comes off the books after next season and they get rid of Lin and Asik contract.

Boston collects more assets.

And why would they trade Asik

[165bows]

To me, the other option is Houston. I think KG would look at this deal (I know, what do I know).

Boston takes on Jimmer/T. Robinson/D. Motiejunas/Royce White and a Houston draft pick
Sacramento takes on Jeremy Lin
Houston gets KG

KG plays with McHale who he has a great relationship with. Ranadive, the new Kings owner, is Indian and would have a keen understanding of Lin's popularity worldwide. Also, gives them something of interest while they tank for another year. Houston clears a bit of space for a max offer for Dwight or CP3.

Seems reasonable to a certain degree.

[KGboss]

On a side note the draft should be fun. Ainge could have 2-4 picks in the draft especially if he trades PP for more picks. Just 9 days away.

This draft class sucks so i hope not. 2-4 projects is all that means. I hope hes getting future draft picks especially for 2014.

[Celts17Pride]

On a side note the draft should be fun. Ainge could have 2-4 picks in the draft especially if he trades PP for more picks. Just 9 days away.

This draft class sucks so i hope not. 2-4 projects is all that means. I hope hes getting future draft picks especially for 2014.

Every draft is a crap shoot unless you get a Top 5 pick. That said I'm expecting Ainge to come away with multiple first rounds pick in 2014 when all is said and done.

[sully00]

Which will be a better asset next year, KG's 11 million with only 6 million guaranteed or Jordan 13 million expiring? 1 Clipper pick at 28 or so for Doc is something.

I'd pass.

You can pass but you do not get the alternative. KG is gone either in the trade or he will retire. There is no remaining asset. I am sure he is already pissed about the fact that Ainge is forcing him and Paul out you either deal him where he wants to go or nowhere at all.

Ainge is making an asset out of nothing here, coaches and players retire all the time. In the end he has to make the deal or decide that scorched earth is better. But it isn't just holding strong against the Clippers it is screwing KG and Doc as well.

[Gant]

Which will be a better asset next year, KG's 11 million with only 6 million guaranteed or Jordan 13 million expiring? 1 Clipper pick at 28 or so for Doc is something.

I'd pass.

You can pass but you do not get the alternative. KG is gone either in the trade or he will retire. There is no remaining asset. I am sure he is already pissed about the fact that Ainge is forcing him and Paul out you either deal him where he wants to go or nowhere at all.

Ainge is making an asset out of nothing here, coaches and players retire all the time. In the end he has to make the deal or decide that scorched earth is better. But it isn't just holding strong against the Clippers it is screwing KG and Doc as well.

This is correct. It's probably trade KG now to the Clippers or don't trade him at all and get nothing.

This deal will probably happen.

Here's the big question: Is the leaked information accurate? It very well might not be. There could easily be other details we don't know about.

[Egregiousness]

ugh...kill the deal let doc enjoy broadcasting for 3 years, KG retire and see what we get for pierce. *sigh*

selling KG and Doc for 10cents on the dollar is depressing.

[OBisHalJordan]

Watching your team lose 60 games and miss out on a top pick is the absolute worse. Hovering as a fringe playoff team with young building blocks and cap flexibility to make moves does not seem all that bad. The rebuild had already started with Green, Rondo, Bradley, and Sullinger.

No. Fringe playoff team is the worst. Rondo and Green aren't rebuild players lol.

Those building blocks you mention will never build into a championship team unless you get the mega star that you need as well. The only way to get that is by getting lucky in the draft. This isn't the MLB.

Being mired in the lottery year after year is the WORST. And that's the worst part about deliberately tanking--you tend to get stuck in the lottery. Having an untempo, exciting team that's playoff bound is pretty fun and it's easier to parlay those young parts into a superstar than it is to start at the bottom, get lucky in the draft and then spend 5-7 years developing your young superstar into someone who can lead a team to a championship. Remember how we got KG and Ray? Oh yeah, you probably weren't sentient then. Here's the short version--we took a non-lottery pick named Al Jefferson, developed him over 3 years, and used him as the centerpiece to land KG.

Superstars come from all parts of the draft. Kobe was the 13th pick. Parker the 28th. Ginobili was the 57th. The point is, the draft is fickle, and team building isn't about tearing down everything to the foundation and hoping/praying for deliverance from the lottery gods, it's about intelligently stockpiling assets from all available avenues, it's about creating a rational salary structure, it's about having a smart, dedicated scouting staff, great trainers, owners who spend but don't interfere with their basketball guys, and it's about having a good GM and a good coach.

Regardless of what you think you may know, it's pretty obvious to any sensible observer that Ainge is trying to transition this team into a young, uptempo squad capable of making the playoffs, something teams like Houston and Golden State did last season. This is the best way to build value amongst the players you currently have and it's also the best way of putting out an entertaining product that will do well at the ticket gate. You think the young guys on Charlotte have any value? NO, because they're in a toxic environment on a bad team with no coaching or leadership and that makes them look worse than they actually are. On the other hand, the young talent on Houston/GS is probably overrated league wide because of the style they play and the success they had last season and both of those teams are now positioned to translate those assets into the kind of transcendent talent that it takes to wins championships.

This is the most sensible post in this thread and,of course, it is ignored. I really don't understand why so many people want dive back into lottery territory. It is simply not a guarantee for anything. There are many ways to build a team. I think the best one for all parties--players, fans, coaching staff, and owners--is to avoid years and years of mediocrity and reload rather than take the scorched earth approach and risk being garbage for a decade.

[humblebum]

Let's not be disingenuous ryaningf, the Celtics clearly tanked and simply missed out on Durant/Oden, but then used the fifth pick to acquire Ray who was the first domino.

I don't think the Celtics necessarily need to tank but I think without Paul, Kevin and Doc there is a strong chance the team could end up being a bottom feeder. Rondo isn't going to be 100%. Spacing will be awful as the Celtics lack consistent shooters which will seriously hamper Rondo and Greens ability to drive the lane. There is no go to scorer with Pierce and KG gone, so getting good shots down the stretch of tight games will be an issue. And defensively the Celtics are going to have a real tough time replacing the leadership and talents of Pierce and Garnett.

I suppose there is the off-chance that Rondo-AB-Green-Sully-Jordan all play to their peak ability and in that case you probably have a 6-8 seed but I think that's about the ceiling for that group. Just not enough collective experience and savvy to win tough fought NBA games.

The good news is that if Ainge can at least get two picks plus Jordan you'll probably have enough assets to make a deal following the season to acquire a top flight star or he could sell off Rondo/Green and build around a younger core.

[KGboss]

ugh...kill the deal let doc enjoy broadcasting for 3 years, KG retire and see what we get for pierce. *sigh*

selling KG and Doc for 10cents on the dollar is depressing.

but necessary. this is where the team is at right now. its not selling short, its grasping at straws when there arent a lot of straws to grasp at to begin with.

DA has been trying to get good trade value for these guys since 2010 when Ray was the one being talked about every off season. He never could. DJ I feel is the best we can get at this point.

Pierce will be the interesting piece however. An expiring assett like that is probably the best trade piece the team has. I'm waiting for that to pop up as well.

[hickfromfrenchlick]

I don't LOVE this deal -- who does? -- but for the people who are against it, tell me this: What happens if Doc quits and KG retires? We get nothing!

It's not like we're winning anything next year. And it's not like we're suddenly getting a superstar in exchange for KG. And it's not like when your coach quits you ever get anything for it.

KG for Jordan isn't bad, if we're OK with his contract. And anything for Doc is house money. He's had a great run here but he's itching to leave.

[sully00]

The other problem that nobody has come to terms with because they keep wanting to make this Doc's fault and not a reality created by Danny Ainge. If this does not work out then Doc can simply so okay I am staying and don't try and trade me again and just be disinterested and miserable until they fire him and he gets all of his money anyway.

The Celtics are trying to trade him. Doc has not quit, KG did not ask to be traded at least publicly. Ainge made the call to go this route instead of sticking to his guns and now he has to see it through. I get Doc was non committal about the season Danny Ainge also quit as a coach after 20 games.

[IDBall]

I don't LOVE this deal -- who does? -- but for the people who are against it, tell me this: What happens if Doc quits and KG retires? We get nothing!

It's not like we're winning anything next year. And it's not like we're suddenly getting a superstar in exchange for KG. And it's not like when your coach quits you ever get anything for it.

KG for Jordan isn't bad, if we're OK with his contract. And anything for Doc is house money. He's had a great run here but he's itching to leave.

No. I'm not ok with DJs contract. I say kill the deal. Two late picks and an overpaid overhyped center isn't worth the deal to me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Captain_Caveman]

Getting DJ and the 25th is no return at all. Less than nothing, in fact.

And can we just finish this already? I have work to do.

[j_angel]

I am warming to the idea of taking Jordan. He has the tools to be a good player, just overpaid.

Rondo - Bradley - Green - Sullinger - Jordan would be fun to watch.

But this deal should not get done without two 1st round picks and a salary dump (Lee, Terry or Bass - let LAC decide but Id prefer Terry).

[sully00]

Which will be a better asset next year, KG's 11 million with only 6 million guaranteed or Jordan 13 million expiring? 1 Clipper pick at 28 or so for Doc is something.

I'd pass.

You can pass but you do not get the alternative. KG is gone either in the trade or he will retire. There is no remaining asset. I am sure he is already pissed about the fact that Ainge is forcing him and Paul out you either deal him where he wants to go or nowhere at all.

Ainge is making an asset out of nothing here, coaches and players retire all the time. In the end he has to make the deal or decide that scorched earth is better. But it isn't just holding strong against the Clippers it is screwing KG and Doc as well.

This is correct. It's probably trade KG now to the Clippers or don't trade him at all and get nothing.

This deal will probably happen.

Here's the big question: Is the leaked information accurate? It very well might not be. There could easily be other details we don't know about.

There is an excellent chance the whole thing is simply an option. Doc and Danny have been close and through a lot together. If any GM could get away with trying to trade his coach and two veteran HOF stars and then decide to bring them all back it is Danny Ainge. Danny tried to trade Ray Allen over and over again and then kept offering him extensions.

Danny could just be being honest with the 3 of them saying I am not sure I can bring everyone back guys it might be time. I don't want to break it up but if I have to and there is a way to send you all to the same place do you want that? They say yes he says say nothing and don't worry about what nasty things Wyc says about you. If it doesn't work maybe we just keep it together here in Boston after all.

[LobCityRondo2KG]

We do not know what is going on behind closed doors in meetings.. Doc may or may not have expressed a desire to move on from this current team.. He may of gone to Danny and told him to make this move.. I am sure once this situation or deal resolves, we will start to get stories from both sides on what went down.. I can't see Doc revealing that he requested this though so we may never know..


Also DJ is someone who we can develop.. He also turns into an expiring contract in a year and we can use him to trade for a disgruntled star to team up with Rondo and Green.. or package him with prospects to a team looking to blow it up..

The no trade clause to KG is really complicating our negotiating process... We have no leverage in these negotiations.. We can try to get an additional pick but the Clippers can just sign Hollins and try to focus on obtaining Howard.

[165bows]

@chadfordinsider Chad Ford
I wrote about this couple weeks ago, but if LAC can strike deal with BOS, nxt shoe to drop may be Bledsoe/Butler to ORL for Afflalo

Seems weird to me that is the next move. Check out the per/36 minutes for Afflalo vs. Lee, they are eerily similar. Same age, similar contracts. Afflalo has been slightly more productive, and is about 50% more expensive.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eco01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... aar01.html

Lee per 36 min averages: 12.9 points on .444/.384/.836, 3.7 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks
Afflalo per 36 averages: 13.7 points on .459/.383/.814, 3.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 steals, 0.3 blocks

Afflalo also made ESPN's most over-rated defenders list this year (I'll post the link if I can find it).

Edit - http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/ ... -defenders

It's pay protected so I'll quote the relevant paragraphs. Kobe, Prince and Rondo also listed in the article.

He carries a reputation as a hard-nosed defensive 2-guard. (It's likely a relic of his outstanding effort in his rookie season of 2007-08, when Detroit was four points of defensive rating better with him in the game and he held opposing shooting guards to an 11.2 PER.)

At any rate, Afflalo hasn't done much statistically since that rookie performance -- his teams are collectively 1.4 points per 100 possessions worse defensively with Afflalo in the game since 2008-09, and his counterparts' numbers are ordinary (14.9 PER) over that same span. Plus, his defensive adjusted plus/minus dipped below average for the first time in 2009-10 and has declined every season since.

Afflalo's prestige as a wing stopper helped secure him a five-year, $43 million free-agent contract last season, but like the other names on this list, it's difficult to find proof that backs up his image as a strong defender.

[FlatearthZorro]

Most of the people around here don't realize that this trade the way it is right now is literally worse than letting KG and Doc leave. U can arrange a small buyout with KG, let Doc walk and trade PP for a late 1st and expirings, we will save a lot more cash by just letting these guys walk.. Jordan is dead weight, he hasn't improved his game since like his 2nd year in the league, he wont help us with anything and that late pick in this draft could easily be a bust, it will more likely be a bust than not...

What value does this trade give us, if we aren't even dumping any salaries?? I want some of you guys to explain this to me... Yes we get younger, but I do not think this helps us now or long term..

[sully00]

I am warming to the idea of taking Jordan. He has the tools to be a good player, just overpaid.

Rondo - Bradley - Green - Sullinger - Jordan would be fun to watch.

But this deal should not get done without two 1st round picks and a salary dump (Lee, Terry or Bass - let LAC decide but Id prefer Terry).

The salary dump is overrated, Boston still has to take back Butler's 8 mil, it sounds good if your dumping both Lee and Terry but why would you want to pay Butler 8 mil for one instead of Terry 10.5 for two. There really is no need to dump Lee he is only 27 years old. So moving the long term money costs you more money in the short term. Somebody will take on Terry by season's end.

If your Ainge you want Jordan and two 1sts. The catch is if you take #25 then you can't get '14 unless you make the deal after the draft. As good as the '14 draft is the chances that the Clippers come off the rails by '15 is way better.