Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust

[Dat2U]

I thought Okafor was pretty bad, at least offensively to begin the year. Maybe his defense made up for it but for a decent chunk of the season his TS% was in the sub .450 range.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I would trade Seraphin because I know what kind of player he is and because he has the most value. I would dump Singleton for a future second round pick. I would watch Vesely improve in his third season the same way Wall did.

Vesely is the guy I would try the hardest to salvage.

He is pretty uniquely gifted when utilized the right way. He won't be good to a sixth pick but useful things he can do when used the right way can help the Wizards

Then you should support us drafting Burke.

He would be the best thing to help salvage Ves. That 2nd unit needs a real PG so all their incomplete skill sets can get maximized and grown.

I see no point in trying to salvage the next Jared Jeffries. It's a waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

And if Wall can't help Ves, and for a while the excuse was Ves needed Wall, then why in the world would you think Trey Burke can do any better?

This is not about a guy needing better teammates or someone to play with. This is about a lazy bust who did nothing to improve his game over the course of two seasons. Okafor & Ariza didn't stop him, not working enough on his game did. Yall sound like I did 8 years ago when I kept making excuses for Kwame Brown. At least he showed a glimmer of potential, which is far more than what Vesely has ever showed.

My guess is you didn't read the past few pages, Dat.

--JV showed glimpses of above average NBA play. (Nivek/PPA 142 post)
--JV once averaged 10/10 per-36 for one month
--Washington was 6-0 and won 8 of 10 at the end of 2011-2012 with Vesely starting and averaging 26 minutes
--His .573 rookie FT was better than the .542 of Tiago Splitter as a 26-year old NBA rookie. Spurs kept playing Splitter and he steadily improved to over .700 this season. Jan can, too.
--I offered several reasons Jan suffered a bad year. hands quantified six reasons--he read my diatribe posts on why Vesely IS salvageable.
--I met Kwame at Pete Newell's Big Man Camp anout 10 years ago, Dat. (Fans got to speak to players after workout sessions). He was kind enough and mannerable enough to indulge me and to listen. I shared a pamphlet, a Norman Vincent Peale track on "The Power of Positive Thinking."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nkw01.html

Overall, the similarity with Vesely is Brown was overrated in the draft and he was treated harshly by coaching. After starting careers with swagger both guys lost it. Brown, like Jan Vesely, seems to be dialed in at time but terribly off at others.

I could post a lot.more, but I will say Kwame has achieved longevity in the NBA. He has had IMO three good seasons in a continuing 12-year NBA career.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Could we dispense with this erroneous claim that Okafor "sucked" at the start of the season? Okafor was about average (PPA of 105 through the first five games of the season), and then he improved. At no point did he suck. At no point was he as mind-bendingly awful as Vesely, Seraphin and Singleton.

When did Okafor give a PPA of 142 for a month?

Were Vesely, Singleton, and Seraphin mind-bendingly awful the last 15 games of 2011-2012?

Context and circumstances account for a lot. I have done my best to prove my point. I said Okafor sucked to start last season because I liked Barron's energy on the boards. He was nicknamed at that time Earl MF'n Barron by doclinkin. My "sucked" is a subjective OPINION when describing Okafor's slow start.

That said, I'm right about Vesely being useful in the past.. I feel like there's not even a shadow of a doubt about it. (WD is right about Adam's defensive potential--I just don't like Adams. I will be honest). I said a lot about Vesely and backed it up with FACTS.

My OPINION is Vesely is worth salvaging.

[Nivek]

I thought Okafor was pretty bad, at least offensively to begin the year. Maybe his defense made up for it but for a decent chunk of the season his TS% was in the sub .450 range.

His offense was bad, I agree. The game is played on both ends, though. And, when we're talking about his performance, it has to be compared with the abject suckitude behind him. Even during his worst stretch this season -- the first 5-10 games of the season -- he a) was overall about average; and b) was still performing WAY better than the Ernie Three.

Coaches bench guys when they have an alternative. At no point did the Ernie Three offer an alternative. Hell, Wittman force-fed minutes to Seraphin, and he very consistently sucked.

[montestewart]

I thought Okafor was pretty bad, at least offensively to begin the year. Maybe his defense made up for it but for a decent chunk of the season his TS% was in the sub .450 range.

His offense was bad, I agree. The game is played on both ends, though. And, when we're talking about his performance, it has to be compared with the abject suckitude behind him. Even during his worst stretch this season -- the first 5-10 games of the season -- he a) was overall about average; and b) was still performing WAY better than the Ernie Three.

Coaches bench guys when they have an alternative. At no point did the Ernie Three offer an alternative. Hell, Wittman force-fed minutes to Seraphin, and he very consistently sucked.

I thought he sucked initially, and I thought he was still recovering from injury. His FG% was initially pretty putrid, his rebounding was below his career norms, and he looked unhappy to be on the Wizards, although maybe I was just reading something into his face and body language that wasn't really there. His D was immediately better than any other C on the team, and as the season wore on, he seemed to return to close to his career norms. He played better than I expected.

[Nivek]

Could we dispense with this erroneous claim that Okafor "sucked" at the start of the season? Okafor was about average (PPA of 105 through the first five games of the season), and then he improved. At no point did he suck. At no point was he as mind-bendingly awful as Vesely, Seraphin and Singleton.

When did Okafor give a PPA of 142 for a month?

On January 28, I did one of my PPA posts at the blog. Okafor and Webster had been playing so well in January that I took at look at PPA over the previous 10 games. During that span (January 7-26), Okafor's PPA was 184.

Here are some PPA updates and Okafor's score for the season to that date:

2/5 -- 143
2/14 -- 145
2/25 -- 145
3/4 -- 149
3/13 -- 149

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The same way Okafor went from "he is suck" to become a veteran favorite who IMO played better than Nene at the end of the season; is how Vesely can turn it around.

Circumstances change and new variables will be in play. Vesely needs to do his part and people also need realistic expectations. I hated on John Wall for three years. There were only glimpses but NOTHING like what he did in March 2013. I am amazed! I am HAPPY the guy turned it around. I was wrong about him. I questioned his competitiveness, his intelligence, his background, but most of all his game.

No way did I think Wall would develop a three point shot. Didn't think he could change speeds. I didn't think he'd add a floater. Wall showed athletic arrogance after a national writer declared him a bust. After that,Wall said he was a max player--and he backed it up!!!

Vesely needs to man up and get his swagger back. The Wizards need to study motivational techniques. Pygmalion comes to mind. I don't care if they make JV The Manchurian Candidate. He is a freak athlete with a high basketball IQ. Dude is down now, but I really believe there is still a baller in there. The guy brawled in Europe. He has some fight in him--just like Wall.

Dat, he's a different type of guy than Kwame.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Could we dispense with this erroneous claim that Okafor "sucked" at the start of the season? Okafor was about average (PPA of 105 through the first five games of the season), and then he improved. At no point did he suck. At no point was he as mind-bendingly awful as Vesely, Seraphin and Singleton.

When did Okafor give a PPA of 142 for a month?

On January 28, I did one of my PPA posts at the blog. Okafor and Webster had been playing so well in January that I took at look at PPA over the previous 10 games. During that span (January 7-26), Okafor's PPA was 184.

Here are some PPA updates and Okafor's score for the season to that date:

2/5 -- 143
2/14 -- 145
2/25 -- 145
3/4 -- 149
3/13 -- 149

Excellent!

As a rookie Vesely put up similar stats to 30-year old Okafor, who makes roughly four times as much.

So, Vesely is useless and should be given up because of his (and it was) mind boggling bad season (where he produced Wizards Oberto-like bad numbers)?

[Nivek]

I think you may want to re-read those numbers. Okafor's PPA for the full season was about the same as what Vesely managed to do in a play-out-the-string month. For about a month, Okafor played like a top 5 center -- something Vesely hasn't done.

And no, I'm not saying the team should give up on him. He's still under contract, and he should be given the opportunity to come back to training and camp and PROVE he belongs. It's possible for Vesely to do that if he works hard in the offseason. But I wouldn't plan on him being a part of the team's future -- I'd need him to prove it by coming to training camp in shape and with improved skills and an improved mental approach.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

"Mental" can be managed if it's worth it from a cost/benefit standpoint. I am "mental" and I understand high-maintenance oh, too, well. Generally, my environment has to be very accommodating and low stress or a get out of there. But nobody pays me millions on a guaranteed NBA deal!

Years ago, you did not see handicapped parking spaces or ramps for wheelchairs. If school cafeterias served peanut butter and your kid got sick it was too bad. These things all have changed because legislation was passed as we became aware of the need to equip and enable those less able-bodied. Where we lag behind some is on providing psychological services.

Most people resent the idea of helping people solve mental health problems. I think talking up Vesely can help unless he deflects, scapegoats, and otherwise wimps out. IMO if he mans up and if the Wizards commit to "go to war" with Vesely --just forgetting this past season-- they might be pleasantly surprised.

Also, if it is not worth the energy to try and accommodate him and his skill set; then trade him somewhere like Minnesota or Boston. Vesely might catch on under Flip or with a soon-rebuilding Boston under Ainge.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think you may want to re-read those numbers. Okafor's PPA for the full season was about the same as what Vesely managed to do in a play-out-the-string month. For about a month, Okafor played like a top 5 center -- something Vesely hasn't done.

[b[And no, I'm not saying the team should give up on him. He's still under contract, and he should be given the opportunity to come back to training and camp and PROVE he belongs. It's possible for Vesely to do that if he works hard in the offseason. But I wouldn't plan on him being a part of the team's future[/b] -- I'd need him to prove it by coming to training camp in shape and with improved skills and an improved mental approach.

No, you said Vesely started horribly and for the month of April played like an above average NBA player. I didn't mis-read.

Okafor for previous seasons is what you introduced. Not me. I said he sucked at the start of the season. I didn't say October and November 2012, but that's what I meant. I noticed Jan's April 2012 was a LOT better as the Wizards won 6 straight. That was why I compared them. I started off pages back saying his development was ruined by Okariza.

I now think JV is salvageable (not as good as Okafor but he is just 22 and very capable of improving).

Nivek, I agree, 100% with the part in bold. I don't count on him being here but I did feel the need to explain why accommodating him might pay off. Vesely's mind can be freed up, perhaps.

[Nivek]

I think you may want to re-read those numbers. Okafor's PPA for the full season was about the same as what Vesely managed to do in a play-out-the-string month. For about a month, Okafor played like a top 5 center -- something Vesely hasn't done.

[b[And no, I'm not saying the team should give up on him. He's still under contract, and he should be given the opportunity to come back to training and camp and PROVE he belongs. It's possible for Vesely to do that if he works hard in the offseason. But I wouldn't plan on him being a part of the team's future[/b] -- I'd need him to prove it by coming to training camp in shape and with improved skills and an improved mental approach.

No, you said Vesely started horribly and for the month of April played like an above average NBA player. I didn't mis-read.

This is correct.

Okafor for previous seasons is what you introduced. Not me. I said he sucked at the start of the season. I didn't say October and November 2012, but that's what I meant.

Look again -- I didn't mention any other season for Okafor. The numbers I posted were for this season that just ended. He didn't suck at the start of the season. He was average. Then he got better.

[tontoz]

Ves airballs foul shots, jumpers and would probably lose an arm wrestling match with Olive Oyl.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think you may want to re-read those numbers. Okafor's PPA for the full season was about the same as what Vesely managed to do in a play-out-the-string month. For about a month, Okafor played like a top 5 center -- something Vesely hasn't done.

[b[And no, I'm not saying the team should give up on him. He's still under contract, and he should be given the opportunity to come back to training and camp and PROVE he belongs. It's possible for Vesely to do that if he works hard in the offseason. But I wouldn't plan on him being a part of the team's future[/b] -- I'd need him to prove it by coming to training camp in shape and with improved skills and an improved mental approach.

No, you said Vesely started horribly and for the month of April played like an above average NBA player. I didn't mis-read.

This is correct.

Okafor for previous seasons is what you introduced. Not me. I said he sucked at the start of the season. I didn't say October and November 2012, but that's what I meant.

Look again -- I didn't mention any other season for Okafor. The numbers I posted were for this season that just ended. He didn't suck at the start of the season. He was average. Then he got better.

The numbers say average but that's not what I saw. I saw suck Okafor.

I will look again. I have nothing but love for you, my friend; and respect for your correctness and intellect. I seriously have a "He is not human" respect for you, Kevin. (I think it was Rocky 4 when Drago accepted defeat). The Wizards should be paying you for what you can provide.

Maybe whoever is scared you would do a Hollinger.

[hands11]

I would trade Seraphin because I know what kind of player he is and because he has the most value. I would dump Singleton for a future second round pick. I would watch Vesely improve in his third season the same way Wall did.

Vesely is the guy I would try the hardest to salvage.

He is pretty uniquely gifted when utilized the right way. He won't be good to a sixth pick but useful things he can do when used the right way can help the Wizards

Then you should support us drafting Burke.

He would be the best thing to help salvage Ves. That 2nd unit needs a real PG so all their incomplete skill sets can get maximized and grown.

I see no point in trying to salvage the next Jared Jeffries. It's a waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

And if Wall can't help Ves, and for a while the excuse was Ves needed Wall, then why in the world would you think Trey Burke can do any better?

This is not about a guy needing better teammates or someone to play with. This is about a lazy bust who did nothing to improve his game over the course of two seasons. Okafor & Ariza didn't stop him, not working enough on his game did. Yall sound like I did 8 years ago when I kept making excuses for Kwame Brown. At least he showed a glimmer of potential, which is far more than what Vesely has ever showed.

Ves didn't play with Wall last year from what I understand.

And like I said, its not just about Ves, the 2nd unit needs a PG which will make anyone playing in that 2nd unit better.

CCJ. You might think they can get Wolters to do it and maybe you are right. But Burke is a proven winner against the best talent college had to offer. He manages the ball really well. He keeps his dribble alive. He find his teammates in a way that is outstanding. He can shoot. And he D is not suck at all.

And he is a stud mental winner.

[hands11]

The same way Okafor went from "he is suck" to become a veteran favorite who IMO played better than Nene at the end of the season; is how Vesely can turn it around.

Circumstances change and new variables will be in play. Vesely needs to do his part and people also need realistic expectations. I hated on John Wall for three years. There were only glimpses but NOTHING like what he did in March 2013. I am amazed! I am HAPPY the guy turned it around. I was wrong about him. I questioned his competitiveness, his intelligence, his background, but most of all his game.

No way did I think Wall would develop a three point shot. Didn't think he could change speeds. I didn't think he'd add a floater. Wall showed athletic arrogance after a national writer declared him a bust. After that,Wall said he was a max player--and he backed it up!!!

Vesely needs to man up and get his swagger back. The Wizards need to study motivational techniques. Pygmalion comes to mind. I don't care if they make JV The Manchurian Candidate. He is a freak athlete with a high basketball IQ. Dude is down now, but I really believe there is still a baller in there. The guy brawled in Europe. He has some fight in him--just like Wall.

Dat, he's a different type of guy than Kwame.

Actually, you were not wrong about him. He was very inconsistent. He was a TO machine. He was Wall1on5. He was also playing like an immature idiot by not even changing speeds which is PG 101.

I equate to worse then Ves not being able to hit a FT.

Now Wall was able to do some other things but mostly is was just relying on pure speed. And then he was injured last off season, but what he did poorly, he did for two years before that.

The criticism was valid. So no, you weren't wrong. Hell, I was right there with your busting his chops. I would find moments of hope, but then he would go back to the same ol same ol.

What Wall did was he changed, and there was little to no indication that he was going to do that. Then his jumper not only started to hit, it was wet. That doesn't happen very often. The turnaround he made was both in his smarts and in his skills. And when it happened, it happened really fast and in a huge way.

I see no crow to swallow CCJ.

[rockymac52]

To be fair, we have made it pretty difficult for Vesely to succeed. We drafted him as a SF, then we moved him to PF, and now it appears we're trying to make him a C. It doesn't totally excuse a lot of his poor performances, but it's worth noting.

I think he still has plenty of potential. However, I highly doubt he'll ever realize it as a Wizard. He would have to show up at training camp and be absolutely amazing in order to convince us to exercise his team option. I don't see that happening, even if he improves significantly. I suppose that even if we decline his team option, if he ends up having a very productive and promising season, we could still re-sign him on an affordable contract, probably less than what he's due to make.

On another note, does anyone recall why we decided to have Vesely come overseas and play in the NBA immediately? Hindsight is 20/20, but it appears that we might have been much better off letting him develop in Europe for a few seasons. Imagine if we had stashed him until now, and we were just adding a new promising young player (granted, we'd all have a lot of hope, and we'd probably be really disappointed lol).

[Liverbird]

IMO Wittman should design a couple offensive plays a game for JV. Build his confidence slowly in a proactive manner. Add to that a fast break basket here or there, could help him move in a positive direction offensively. He's still an athlete, good passer and plays the lanes on defense. Having him play with Wall and Nene would help too.

Ultimately, JV is still culpable for putting in the sweat this summer but the Wiz can certainly still help.

I should put this in the "Happy Thoughts" thread, but I hold out hope JV can still be a contributor on a good team. Certainly over drafted.

[Nivek]

To be fair, we have made it pretty difficult for Vesely to succeed. We drafted him as a SF, then we moved him to PF, and now it appears we're trying to make him a C. It doesn't totally excuse a lot of his poor performances, but it's worth noting.

I would agree there's a big element of organizational fail, but I don't think it's in changing his position/role, I think it's in drafting him to be a SF in the first place. He lacked the skill to be a SF in the NBA, which means it was a poor idea to pick to be a SF -- at least without KNOWING he's a gym rat and a worker, and without having a specific plan to develop the necessary skills.

And, I'd point out that the fact that he lacked those SF skills by age 21 (when they drafted him) was pretty suggestive of the state of his work ethic. I mean, he's 21, he was raised in Europe where they systematically teach those skills, and yet he didn't have good ball handling and he wasn't much of a shooter. And, his body wasn't developed, which sorta raises the question of what exactly it was he worked on.

Shifting him to "big" positions was a necessity because of his lack of skill. That's a case of the coaches trying to find something he could do -- some way he could contribute. And, for a month at the end of his rookie year, it worked. Then he went away for the summer and came back out of shape and with no improvement in his skills. Kinda full circle back to that work ethic thing.

I think he still has plenty of potential. However, I highly doubt he'll ever realize it as a Wizard. He would have to show up at training camp and be absolutely amazing in order to convince us to exercise his team option. I don't see that happening, even if he improves significantly. I suppose that even if we decline his team option, if he ends up having a very productive and promising season, we could still re-sign him on an affordable contract, probably less than what he's due to make.

On another note, does anyone recall why we decided to have Vesely come overseas and play in the NBA immediately? Hindsight is 20/20, but it appears that we might have been much better off letting him develop in Europe for a few seasons. Imagine if we had stashed him until now, and we were just adding a new promising young player (granted, we'd all have a lot of hope, and we'd probably be really disappointed lol).

Agree with him having potential, AND him not realizing it with the Wizards. I don't think he'll realize it in the NBA. My guess is that when the Wizards are done, he might get a cup of coffee or two with another team, but then he'll be headed back to Europe.

The decision to bring him to the NBA instead of stashing him was likely based on the extensive scouting and unanimous opinion in their front office and coaching staff that he was ready for the NBA. Oops.

Let's keep in mind that back in December, Leonsis wrote a blog post to support the team's young players. In that blog post, he described Vesely as "fundamentally sound."

[nate33]

To be fair, we have made it pretty difficult for Vesely to succeed. We drafted him as a SF, then we moved him to PF, and now it appears we're trying to make him a C. It doesn't totally excuse a lot of his poor performances, but it's worth noting.

I would agree there's a big element of organizational fail, but I don't think it's in changing his position/role, I think it's in drafting him to be a SF in the first place. He lacked the skill to be a SF in the NBA, which means it was a poor idea to pick to be a SF -- at least without KNOWING he's a gym rat and a worker, and without having a specific plan to develop the necessary skills.

I don't think it's fair to say that we drafted Vesely to be a SF. According to 82games.com, Vesely didn't play a single minute at PF in his rookie year. It's not like we tried him out at SF and then decided on a whim to change the plan. It was pretty clear when we drafted him that we planned on him to be a PF. Why else would we draft Singleton in the same draft?