Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII

[verbal8]

I'm no doctor so I won't try to play one on the internet. If I'm making a decision on Noel it would come down to what the team docs tell me. If the docs say he'll be good, I'm drafting him without hesitation. If there's some doubt about his long term prognosis, then I'd look elsewhere.

With the Wizards medical staff, I would probably also get a second opinion. But I agree on the general point that it really comes down to his injury situation/potential if Noel is available at 3. If he was in the 2013 draft, he is the only guy in this draft that would be considered in the top 3 and would probably go top 5.

[closg00]

My other random question is- just who is left in the Wizards front office to debate Porter vs Bennett vs the field? I thought the Connellys and Tommy Sheppard already split.

I think the Wizard's front office now consists of EG and Lyrical Rico.

[stevemcqueen1]

I'm trying to figure out what the heck he is doing under that bench. What's the point of benching that when the spotter bars are in placed so high? Also, those weights look like 45 pound plates, which would mean he's got 315 pounds there. But the weights are labeled 25 lbs and 15 lbs so maybe it's just 175 (4x25 + 2x15 + bar). I've never seen weights that large having such a low weight.

About the knee: we don't know how long ago that photo was taken. He got hurt in January so presumably had surgery in February. If he's still swelled up like that 4 months later, that can't be good. But maybe this photo is from early May or something.

Yeah I thought they were 45 pound plates too and was like, dang he's a lot stronger than he looks.

I was wondering what kind of exercise he was doing there too since he can't get the bar to his chest. It's a weird photo. I am really curious about what the doctors have to say about that knee. That's the one thing I wish I was there in the room to hear. It's basically THE factor in whether or not I would draft Noel if he were there.

Just to recap, Len could go #1, Noel could go #2, and Bennett could go #3. Who said serious injuries hurt your draft stock?

[verbal8]

In a vacuum, I can see Porter and Bennett being a toss-up. However when considering the talent level at various positions both in the league and potentially available next year, it seems that Porter and Oladipo have an edge on Bennett.

PF is already a deep position in the NBA. Next year's draft looks like it will include 3 elite PF prospects - Randle, Aaron Gordon and Jabari Parker. In generally them seem to have a post-up game and/or an ability to create for teammates that Bennett lacks. SG is arguably the weakest position in the NBA. The 2014 draft doesn't look terribly strong for the position either.

The 2nd best wing prospect seems to be a 6'6 SG who relies on isolation plays and has poor intangibles:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mario-Hezonja-6392/

SF isn't much better. Wiggins is the prize of the 2014 draft, but after that Glenn Robinson looks the most promising. He only averaged 11 ppg and needs to develop his shooting. He could well make progress similar to what Porter did, but that isn't guaranteed.

[hands11]

I'm no doctor so I won't try to play one on the internet. If I'm making a decision on Noel it would come down to what the team docs tell me. If the docs say he'll be good, I'm drafting him without hesitation. If there's some doubt about his long term prognosis, then I'd look elsewhere.

With the Wizards medical staff, I would probably also get a second opinion. But I agree on the general point that it really comes down to his injury situation/potential if Noel is available at 3. If he was in the 2013 draft, he is the only guy in this draft that would be considered in the top 3 and would probably go top 5.

Thats an interesting way to evaluate these players. If A Davis, MKG, Beal, Dion W, T Rob, Lillard, Barnes and Terrance Ross where in this draft, were would these top 2013 rank ?

It would be interesting to see what people have for a Mock with the classes combined.

[Dark Faze]

I'm no doctor so I won't try to play one on the internet. If I'm making a decision on Noel it would come down to what the team docs tell me. If the docs say he'll be good, I'm drafting him without hesitation. If there's some doubt about his long term prognosis, then I'd look elsewhere.

With the Wizards medical staff, I would probably also get a second opinion. But I agree on the general point that it really comes down to his injury situation/potential if Noel is available at 3. If he was in the 2013 draft, he is the only guy in this draft that would be considered in the top 3 and would probably go top 5.

Thats an interesting way to evaluate these players. If A Davis, MKG, Beal, Dion W, T Rob, Lillard, Barnes and Terrance Ross where in this draft, were would these top 2013 rank ?

It would be interesting to see what people have for a Mock with the classes combined.

Without hindsight :

Anthony Davis
Noel
MKG/Beal
Porter
Oladipo
Len
Burke
McLemore
Lillard
Bennett
T-Rob
Barnes
Ross

Off the top of my head

[verbal8]

I'm no doctor so I won't try to play one on the internet. If I'm making a decision on Noel it would come down to what the team docs tell me. If the docs say he'll be good, I'm drafting him without hesitation. If there's some doubt about his long term prognosis, then I'd look elsewhere.

With the Wizards medical staff, I would probably also get a second opinion. But I agree on the general point that it really comes down to his injury situation/potential if Noel is available at 3. If he was in the 2013 draft, he is the only guy in this draft that would be considered in the top 3 and would probably go top 5.

Thats an interesting way to evaluate these players. If A Davis, MKG, Beal, Dion W, T Rob, Lillard, Barnes and Terrance Ross where in this draft, were would these top 2013 rank ?

It would be interesting to see what people have for a Mock with the classes combined.

A Davis - 2013 1st
MKG - 2013 2nd
Beal - 2013 2nd - no homer
Dion W - 2013 8-10th
T Rob - 2013 15-20th(tempted to say 2nd Round since that and cap space could acquire him)
Lillard - 2013 3rd(probably a slight edge over Porter, but not Oladipo)
Barnes - 2013 12-15th(players at that point get pretty risky/raw)
Terrence Ross - 2013 12-15th(may be underrating him)

[GhostsOfGil]

Found this in another forum, a picture is worth a thousand words:

Spoiler:

Look how bad his knee looks. Yikes? How on Earth is that thing going to check out medically?

Look how slender his legs are now too. His ankles and wrists look like a child's and he has no bulk to his thighs.

I'm definitely feeling an Oden-esque vibe with Nerlens now. Starting to feel like we are not the organization for him. I hope Len and Noel go 1 and 2 and we don't have to deal with them. But I can now see Nerlens sliding down the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what the heck he is doing under that bench. What's the point of benching that when the spotter bars are in placed so high? Also, those weights look like 45 pound plates, which would mean he's got 315 pounds there. But the weights are labeled 25 lbs and 15 lbs so maybe it's just 175 (4x25 + 2x15 + bar). I've never seen weights that large having such a low weight.

About the knee: we don't know how long ago that photo was taken. He got hurt in January so presumably had surgery in February. If he's still swelled up like that 4 months later, that can't be good. But maybe this photo is from early May or something.

That knee looks horrid.. Also nate is right. WTF is he doing here? Those weights are used for olympics lifts so I understand the size of them but it almost looks like hes just posing for a picture.

[tontoz]

Found this in another forum, a picture is worth a thousand words:



Look how bad his knee looks. Yikes? How on Earth is that thing going to check out medically?

Look how slender his legs are now too. His ankles and wrists look like a child's and he has no bulk to his thighs.

I'm definitely feeling an Oden-esque vibe with Nerlens now. Starting to feel like we are not the organization for him. I hope Len and Noel go 1 and 2 and we don't have to deal with them. But I can now see Nerlens sliding down the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what the heck he is doing under that bench. What's the point of benching that when the spotter bars are in placed so high? Also, those weights look like 45 pound plates, which would mean he's got 315 pounds there. But the weights are labeled 25 lbs and 15 lbs so maybe it's just 175 (4x25 + 2x15 + bar). I've never seen weights that large having such a low weight.

About the knee: we don't know how long ago that photo was taken. He got hurt in January so presumably had surgery in February. If he's still swelled up like that 4 months later, that can't be good. But maybe this photo is from early May or something.

Why does he have spotter bars that high AND have a spotter?

[GhostsOfGil]

Jalen and Bill are doing a nice set of interviews over on the grantland channel. Here's the latest with Len

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqkEo_Pk9HI[/youtube]

[Nivek]

That's not to say he is a *bad* player -- overall, he's above average. That's it.

average, huh? can you name three better players at his position?

LeBron
Durant
Paul George

I wouldn't include Paul George, but in addition to Lebron and Durant, I would take these guys over Carmelo -- Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Kawhi Leonard and Faried. I included some PFs because Carmelo played more PF than SF this season (as did Lebron).

Splitter and Ibaka rated solidly ahead of Carmelo in my stuff, but I'd still take Carmelo over them if I was assembling a team from scratch. Guys who rated about the same, but I'd still take Carmelo over -- Kirilenko, Marion, West.

That's forwards, of course. Still a really good player. Not quite at All-NBA level, but still very good.

[LyricalRico]

My other random question is- just who is left in the Wizards front office to debate Porter vs Bennett vs the field? I thought the Connellys and Tommy Sheppard already split.

I think the Wizard's front office now consists of EG and Lyrical Rico.

Nah, I'm not actually on the payroll (yet). I'm more like Jerry Sloan's WireTap description - not an official consultant, but keeping a tactful presence.

[pcbothwel]

Found this in another forum, a picture is worth a thousand words:



Look how bad his knee looks. Yikes? How on Earth is that thing going to check out medically?

Look how slender his legs are now too. His ankles and wrists look like a child's and he has no bulk to his thighs.

I'm definitely feeling an Oden-esque vibe with Nerlens now. Starting to feel like we are not the organization for him. I hope Len and Noel go 1 and 2 and we don't have to deal with them. But I can now see Nerlens sliding down the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what the heck he is doing under that bench. What's the point of benching that when the spotter bars are in placed so high? Also, those weights look like 45 pound plates, which would mean he's got 315 pounds there. But the weights are labeled 25 lbs and 15 lbs so maybe it's just 175 (4x25 + 2x15 + bar). I've never seen weights that large having such a low weight.

About the knee: we don't know how long ago that photo was taken. He got hurt in January so presumably had surgery in February. If he's still swelled up like that 4 months later, that can't be good. But maybe this photo is from early May or something.

I guess I'll throw my two cents in this conversation as I am fairly knowledgeable about power lifting/sports fitness.
1) The reason the weights are bigger is because they are bumper plates used for Olympic lifts(I.E. Deadlift, snatch, clean & Jerk). The diameter of the plates are the same to allow for equal distribution of pressure when the weight hits the floor.
2) There is no reason to use bumper plates with bench press.
3) He is doing a lockout on his Bench which has benefits for Power Lifting. But he needs to work on his functional base strength, not advanced techniques.
4) This lockout is too high and the weight is embarrassing. For comparison sake, I am 6'1, 200lbs (sub 10% body fat). I can bench press 345lbs (touch and go off chest). My lockout at the height Noel is doing could be somewhere around 420-445lbs(I am far from advanced)...He is doing 185..nuff said.

Final Thoughts: Some of these Basketball players are training like ****. It ranted about Jan's crap squat in a smith machine a while back as well...Go look at the Baltimore Orioles training facility, or Alabama and learn something.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

When I saw picture I thought, " No way is Noel benching 315. Not with those chicken wings. He must just be posing for a picture."

I assumed the plates were 45.

Some tall guys can curl an impressive amount of weight. David Robinson was really strong. He probably maxed out only near 315 on the bench. No way Noel comes in doing that. Some guys his height with such long arms struggle to bench 185.

(Avery Johnson OTOH could bench 400 pounds!)

[TGW]

That picture is so full of FAIL on so many different levels.

That knee looks gruesome. I'm getting flashbacks to Gibert's knee when I see that.

Unfortunately, the Wizards should pass if he's there. Alex Len will be going #1.

[Dark Faze]

I can't imagine NBA players needing to do advanced lifts like snatches and cleans. Those workouts have such a heavy emphasis on form to where if you **** up you could have back issues and more.

Advanced lifts are great for getting more out of a single workout, but taking it slower with safer isolation workouts/machine is going to be the go to for most NBA strength and conditioning coaches. So I'm not surprised that Jan was on a smith machine and I don't think its a bad thing.

Football players its a different story. You have to do those olympic lifts to compete at a high level at some of those positions. For example Alfred Morris squats 600 IIRC. You won't find an NBA player who touches that number.

I would LOL if Baseball players were doing olympic level lifts. Wouldn't surprise me because baseball players are injured on the super regular for apparently no reason but if they are doing those lifts I'm starting to understand why everyones so injury prone in the sport.

[Nivek]

I don't think that picture changes anything. We already knew he was skinny and needed to get stronger. We already knew about the knee injury. It's disappointing that he's not getting better training than he's getting, but that's something his future team should be able to fix. The bright side in that pic is...at least he's working out. Also worth remembering is that Noel just turned 19. He has a lot of physical development to do, but that's pretty normal for a 19-year old. If he's willing to work and has good training (which presumably an NBA team (yes, even the Wizards) should be able to provide), he'll add significant muscle over the next 4-5 years.

That photo wouldn't dissuade me from picking him. He's still third in YODA behind Oladipo and Zeller.

[DCZards]

I wouldn't include Paul George, but in addition to Lebron and Durant, I would take these guys over Carmelo -- Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Kawhi Leonard and Faried. I included some PFs because Carmelo played more PF than SF this season (as did Lebron).

I don't know, Nivek. I know there are serious questions about Melo's efficiency and D...and rightfully so. But he is easily one of the top 3-4 offensive weapons in the NBA, especially in the half-court. There may not be a player in the league with a more diverse offensive game. And that matters a lot, especially at crunch time when Melo is often at his best...as others have pointed out.

I don't think any smart GM would take a Griffin, Faried and Leonard over Melo. Griffin's half-court offense sucks. In fact, I think his offensive game has stagnated (or peaked). Plus his free throw shooting is awful, and that's an important reality in close games.

Faried is a great rebounder and energy guy but he's never, ever going to be close to the kind of go-to scorer that Melo is. Leonard I like and he may indeed someday be comparable to Melo, but he's not there yet.

I'd take Paul George over Griffin, Faried and Leonard.

[stevemcqueen1]

In a vacuum, I can see Porter and Bennett being a toss-up. However when considering the talent level at various positions both in the league and potentially available next year, it seems that Porter and Oladipo have an edge on Bennett.

PF is already a deep position in the NBA. Next year's draft looks like it will include 3 elite PF prospects - Randle, Aaron Gordon and Jabari Parker. In generally them seem to have a post-up game and/or an ability to create for teammates that Bennett lacks. SG is arguably the weakest position in the NBA. The 2014 draft doesn't look terribly strong for the position either.

The 2nd best wing prospect seems to be a 6'6 SG who relies on isolation plays and has poor intangibles:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mario-Hezonja-6392/

SF isn't much better. Wiggins is the prize of the 2014 draft, but after that Glenn Robinson looks the most promising. He only averaged 11 ppg and needs to develop his shooting. He could well make progress similar to what Porter did, but that isn't guaranteed.

I've seen a decent amount of the 2014 class already, specifically the three you mention. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Bennett's problem is definitely not a lack of scoring ability, lack of creativity, lack of skill.

And Gordon, Parker, and Randle aren't back to basket scorers. I'll give you that Parker is more skilled than Bennett. But Gordon and Randle are cut from the same cloth as Bennett. They are face up forwards who are perimeter oriented with superior handles and score off the bounce.

The area where Bennett falls behind Randle and Gordon is athleticism. Those guys are absolute freaks. Top tier athletes who will immediately be some of the best athletes in the NBA. They are high flyers that run like deer. Bennett is "merely" an excellent athlete.

Plus I doubt those two will be as bad defensively as Bennett was at times, but you never know.

Randle is a true PF and looks like he has legit size. Gordon and Parker are tweener forwards and Gordon looks a good deal smaller than Bennett. Parker is probably an NBA SF and Gordon might settle there too if he improves his shooting.

I'd say Bennett is a little more reliable of a long range shooter than Gordon and Randle too.

I think a healthy Bennett holds his own in terms of talent with a lot of the blue chippers next year like Marcus Smart will. He was a big time freshman like those three are probably going to be. He just had some injury issues and some defensive issues which put a big stain on him.

[verbal8]

In a vacuum, I can see Porter and Bennett being a toss-up. However when considering the talent level at various positions both in the league and potentially available next year, it seems that Porter and Oladipo have an edge on Bennett.

PF is already a deep position in the NBA. Next year's draft looks like it will include 3 elite PF prospects - Randle, Aaron Gordon and Jabari Parker. In generally them seem to have a post-up game and/or an ability to create for teammates that Bennett lacks. SG is arguably the weakest position in the NBA. The 2014 draft doesn't look terribly strong for the position either.

The 2nd best wing prospect seems to be a 6'6 SG who relies on isolation plays and has poor intangibles:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mario-Hezonja-6392/

SF isn't much better. Wiggins is the prize of the 2014 draft, but after that Glenn Robinson looks the most promising. He only averaged 11 ppg and needs to develop his shooting. He could well make progress similar to what Porter did, but that isn't guaranteed.

I've seen a decent amount of the 2014 class already, specifically the three you mention. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Bennett's problem is definitely not a lack of scoring ability, lack of creativity, lack of skill.

In general he is creative and versatile in terms of individual offense, however the less than 1 assist per game is a bit of concern to me.

And Gordon, Parker, and Randle aren't back to basket scorers. I'll give you that Parker is more skilled than Bennett. But Gordon and Randle are cut from the same cloth as Bennett. They are face up forwards who are perimeter oriented with superior handles and score off the bounce.

The area where Bennett falls behind Randle and Gordon is athleticism. Those guys are absolute freaks. Top tier athletes who will immediately be some of the best athletes in the NBA. They are high flyers that run like deer. Bennett is "merely" an excellent athlete.

Plus I doubt those two will be as bad defensively as Bennett was at times, but you never know.

Randle is a true PF and looks like he has legit size. Gordon and Parker are tweener forwards and Gordon looks a good deal smaller than Bennett. Parker is probably an NBA SF and Gordon might settle there too if he improves his shooting.

I'd say Bennett is a little more reliable of a long range shooter than Gordon and Randle too.

I think a healthy Bennett holds his own in terms of talent with a lot of the blue chippers next year like Marcus Smart will. He was a big time freshman like those three are probably going to be. He just had some injury issues and some defensive issues which put a big stain on him.

I am not saying he is so much worse than the comparisons, just would end up ranked slightly below them. I think Bennett will be a good NBA player, just not quite what you want from the 3rd pick in the draft. If he is there at 7 or 8, I think the team that picks him will be very happy with what they get.