2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Mutnt]

Why are people ignoring Parker?

Dude had a Top 10 RS of all players (2nd among PG's after CP3) and has been awesome in the playoffs. Yes, he wasn't really good in the Finals (fatigue, injury and heat defense on PG's are a baitch) but otherwise, ha had a great series against LA and Memphis and did pretty good against GS as well. It definitely understandable to say Duncan was the most impactful player (clearly because of D), but they don't come this far without Parker being epic.

Other candidates:

Wade = bad, injured-plagued postseason
Melo = bad postseason
Westbrook = injured, wasn't nearly good enough in the RS to warrant a top 5 place.
Kobe = injured in PS, great raw numbers but the Lakers underachieved (and Kobe was partly to blame for that)
Harden = better than Parker in the RS but wasn't really impressed with him in the PS and he only played 6 games.
Curry = great PS, carried the GS offense, but a great series vs. no-defense Nuggets isn't enough to push him into the Top 5. He's in the 5-8 range
M.Gasol = Hard to give the #5 spot to Gasol after he was abysmal offensively vs. the Spurs, also doesn't help that Parker went bonkers with 24.5 ppg on 59%TS and 3.5 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2 spg against one of the best defenses in the league with Gasol as the DPOY anchor.

That's about that. No other players deserve a mention. And remember, this isn't a THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE discussion, it's POTY.

[therealbig3]

D-Will and Curry were both better than Parker.

Parker in the playoffs averaged 21/7 on 52% TS.

And the reality is, Parker was so inconsistent in the playoffs, and his bad games were glossed over like they were no big deal, while his good games were hyped up to unbelievable proportions. He was the 4th best player on his own team in the Finals. And it's also obvious to see how much Parker benefits from Pop's system and the players he has around him.

And what about his defense? This is a guy that was routinely taken out of crucial possessions at the end of games because he was such a big defensive liability. What other top 10 players can you say that about?

Parker had 2 good series (Lakers, Grizzlies) and 2 terrible ones (Warriors, Heat). Overall, his playoff performance wasn't anywhere close to as good as it was hyped up to be, and there were numerous times he was carried by his teammates, but that gets ignored. I'd say Duncan was clearly better than Parker this year.

[HeartBreakKid]

And what about his defense? This is a guy that was routinely taken out of crucial possessions at the end of games because he was such a big defensive liability. What other top 10 players can you say that about?

Would not be surprised if Popovich would bench Harden and Bryant if it came down to a defensive possession. Carmelo not exactly getting any defensive awards either.

[therealbig3]

And what about his defense? This is a guy that was routinely taken out of crucial possessions at the end of games because he was such a big defensive liability. What other top 10 players can you say that about?

Would not be surprised if Popovich would bench Harden and Bryant if it came down to a defensive possession. Carmelo not exactly getting any defensive awards either.

And what I'm saying is, that should be definitely be part of the discussion.

I've seen their defensive shortcomings used against Kobe, Harden, and Melo, but Parker seems to be portrayed as a neutral defensive player who is a huge offensive force, when in reality, Kobe/Harden/Melo are not as big of a liability defensively as Parker, and are superior offensively. At the very least, the defense of all 4 players are on the same level.

[Mutnt]

D-Will and Curry were both better than Parker.

Parker in the playoffs averaged 21/7 on 52% TS.

And the reality is, Parker was so inconsistent in the playoffs, and his bad games were glossed over like they were no big deal, while his good games were hyped up to unbelievable proportions. He was the 4th best player on his own team in the Finals. And it's also obvious to see how much Parker benefits from Pop's system and the players he has around him.

And what about his defense? This is a guy that was routinely taken out of crucial possessions at the end of games because he was such a big defensive liability. What other top 10 players can you say that about?

Parker had 2 good series (Lakers, Grizzlies) and 2 terrible ones (Warriors, Heat). Overall, his playoff performance wasn't anywhere close to as good as it was hyped up to be, and there were numerous times he was carried by his teammates, but that gets ignored. I'd say Duncan was clearly better than Parker this year.

D-Will? ahahah, the dude sucked 3/4 of the season and played horrible against the Bulls even though he had a more talented, healthier squad. Besides, Lopez was the clear-cut best player on the Nets last season.

4th best player in the Finals on his team? That's laughable. Do you realize Green was assisted on over 80% of his field goals? He hit all those threes BECAUSE Parker fed him the ball. All he did was shoot wide open threes, once the Heat figured out how to take that away he was beyond horrible. Parker on the other hand had to run the system, penetrate, collapse defenses, pass and score and he had the Heat defense draped all over him (Heat's defense is notorious for abusing guards who handle the ball a lot, while bigs such as Duncan and Hibbert look like all-stars because they play 1on1 against freakin' Bosh/Haslem or even Battier).
Kawhi had a great series, but again the defense wasn't focused on him like it was on Parker.

Liability? Nah, Pop took him out because he was gassed and couldn't do anything on offense. His defense is what it is. I don't know what do you expect from a PG defensively? A PG's impact on defense is negligible, that's why Parker is one of the best PG's in the league, he makes a big difference offensively. Besides, it's not like he got abused by any of his matchups (Curry, Conley and Chalmers weren't going ballistic on him) and he's got no historical record of getting routinely abused.

You look at Parker too much from a box-score POV. Parker is essential for Pop's system, even if he's not scoring or racking up assists, he's the catalyst. He's the guy who collapses defenses so that the ball can swing around the perimeter. He's the guy who drives, attracts 2 or 3 guys on him so that Duncan or Leonard can get a good rebounding position. Parker knows every set, every trick in Pop's book. The Spurs have no other competent PG in his place and I firmly believe that without Parker doing his thing, that team is not close to being the same team, with the same great results.

He didn't get carried by anyone. Every role player pretty much fed off Parker like a leech (even Timmy to some extent). I have Duncan as the more impactful player (mainly because his defense is still Top 5 in the league, that's a HUGE thing to have), but Parker is arguably the most important offensive player for the Spurs now.

[therealbig3]

I'm not looking too much from a box-score perspective, I just think Parker wasn't all that great or irreplaceable at running it. Why did the Spurs not miss a beat whenever Parker missed time? Why did the Spurs keep winning games even when Parker played like trash? His role is not some irreplaceable role that no other star PG can fill, and in fact, let alone CP3, but D-Will and Curry would do a much better job in that role.

Green got so many open looks because he was excellent at moving without the ball and giving Parker an option to pass to, and Parker wasn't the only one passing him the ball. Green cooled off big time in games 6 and 7, but he overall played a much better Finals than Parker. Duncan was better than Parker in the Finals. Leonard was better than Parker in the Finals.

And D-Will was not horrible for 3/4 of the season and he wasn't horrible against the Bulls. And lol, Lopez was not the best player on the team this season, that was still D-Will.

IDK how many times the guy has to disappear in the playoffs for people to say it how it is...Parker is a good player, but he's nowhere close to a top 5 player, even in a weak year. He's extremely lucky to play for Pop, not the other way around.

[mademan]

I'm not sure how anybody could watch that series and think that Parker played better than Duncan/Kawai/Green. Maybe Green, because of his terrible games 6/7 (though Parker was just as bad in game 7 imo). But at least Green played great defense and saved countless fast break plays which are usually an automatic 2+ points for the Heat.

[therealbig3]

To add on: Pop's system is a PG's DREAM. Tons of player movement, tons of ball movement, tons of screens and PnRs, great shooters, and a great PnR big man. If you can penetrate and run the PnR effectively, you'll thrive in that system. D-Will can do those things in addition to being a much better shooter, as well as a better passer.

[Mutnt]

I'm not looking too much from a box-score perspective, I just think Parker wasn't all that great or irreplaceable at running it. Why did the Spurs not miss a beat whenever Parker missed time? Why did the Spurs keep winning games even when Parker played like trash? His role is not some irreplaceable role that no other star PG can fill, and in fact, let alone CP3, but D-Will and Curry would do a much better job in that role.

Parker played more minutes in the RS than Duncan did. The Spurs were 8-4 when missing Duncan, 12-6 when missing Manu and 15-8 without Kawhi (also 11-3 without Parker). Does any of this help you with your analysis?
I never said it's irreplaceable, just that Parker knows Pop's system in and out and Pop's system is predicated on Parker's abilities (No, neither Curry, CP3 or D-Will plays like Parker. Neither of them can get into the lane as well, let alone finish inside like Parker does) If Pop had any of these players instead of Parker, he'd definitely tweak the system. The Spurs would probably still be great though, just because CP3, Curry and D-Will (when he can actually hit something) have their own very useful strengths that Pop would manage to
make them work. But all in all, no, in this exact role, none of those three can do what Parker does better than him.

Green got so many open looks because he was excellent at moving without the ball and giving Parker an option to pass to, and Parker wasn't the only one passing him the ball. Green cooled off big time in games 6 and 7, but he overall played a much better Finals than Parker. Duncan was better than Parker in the Finals. Leonard was better than Parker in the Finals.

Green got so many looks, because the Heat completely ignored him and focused on Parker (they didn't even double team Duncan). Seriously, watch the games dude, they don't even cover Green, and of course he'll get to an open spot, he's not that stupid. Parker draws the attention. There's a reason Green couldn't duplicate his Finals play in the RS (he actually had a worse regular season than last year, even though he played more minutes) and other series in the postseason. Again, Green is a role player shooter, Parker is the catalyst.

And D-Will was not horrible for 3/4 of the season and he wasn't horrible against the Bulls. And lol, Lopez was not the best player on the team this season, that was still D-Will.

Lets see:

D-Will:

He was outright horrible in November (15.7 ppg on 51%TS, 8.7 apg, 3 TO) and awful in December (16.9 ppg on 52%TS, 6.4 apg, 2.7 TO) decent in January (18.3 ppg on 61%TS, 8.3 apg, 2.7 TO) again mediocre in February (18.7 ppg on 56%TS, 7.1 apg, 3.6 TO) solid in March (21.9 ppg 60%TS on 7.7 apg, 2.7 TO) and great in the remaining 8 games in the season (24.6 ppg on 66%TS, 8.4 apg, 2.3 TO)

RS: 18.9 ppg on 57%TS, 7.7 apg, 2.8 TO, 20.3 PER
Playoffs: 20.6 ppg on 57%TS, 8.5 apg, 3 TO, 20.6 PER

Lopez:

RS: 19.4 ppg on 56%TS, 6.9 rpg, 2.1 bpg, 24.7 PER
Playoffs: 22.3 ppg on 55%TS, 7.7 rpg, 3 bpg, 25.2 PER

I know Lopez is not an All-Defensive player but his size and blocks still provides plenty more defense than D-Will. I think Lopez was clearly better, If D-Will would've played like he did in March and April, I'd have no problem saying he was the best Net.

Parker:

RS: 20.3 ppg on 59%TS , 7.6 apg, 2.6 TO, 23 PER
Playoffs: 20.6 ppg on 52%TS, 7 apg, 2.5 TO, 21.5 PER

Clearly better than both in the regular season. For the postseason, it needs to be taken into account that Parker played long and hard, deep into the playoffs and played better defenses. This is not the same as taking a 7-game sample size of D-Will and judging his performance based on that. I'd love to see how Miami would destroy D-Will...

IDK how many times the guy has to disappear in the playoffs for people to say it how it is...Parker is a good player, but he's nowhere close to a top 5 player, even in a weak year. He's extremely lucky to play for Pop, not the other way around.

You do realize that you're thrashing a guy who had one mediocre series against GSW (Game 6 totally effed his stats up, otherwise he would have had 24.4 ppg on 53%TS and 6 apg) and one bad series against the most talented team in the league with a great wing defense, playing with an injured hamstring and LeBron James on him... Everything else, the whole RS + LAL and MEM he was amazing, but yeah... I guess that qualifies as disappearing for you. But hey, D-Will was certainly more amazing

[Mutnt]

To add on: Pop's system is a PG's DREAM. Tons of player movement, tons of ball movement, tons of screens and PnRs, great shooters, and a great PnR big man. If you can penetrate and run the PnR effectively, you'll thrive in that system. D-Will can do those things in addition to being a much better shooter, as well as a better passer.

You run a system THAT BEST COMPLIMENTS YOUR BEST PLAYERS ASSETS, god damn. Pop isn't stupid. Before Parker arrived, Pop wasn't running the same stuff with Avery, Terry Porter and Steve Kerr and just slotted Tony in there like: ''Here's my awesome PG system, you just go in there and feed the ball to Duncan'', because those players didn't have remotely the same skill-set that Parker does. With Duncan's slow decline, Pop gave Parker a bigger role on offense and more responsibilities.

That ball-movement is the result of Parker, who else initiates it? They're not nearly going inside to Duncan as much as they used to. D-Will can't penetrate into a cougar's pussy, he's slow and bulky and when he gets inside he can't finish. There's a reason why Parker shot 52%(!) from the field this season, he's the best PG finisher around the rim in the league. He's also got a solid mid-range game. I'd rather have Parker constantly attack and finish high percentage shots than D-Will clanking threes (he's probably one of the most inconsistent 3PT shooters in the league) and long mid-range shots.

All in all, I don't know why you fault Parker for playing in Pop's system, you don't know how good he'd be if he played somewhere else and it's not really important, because he doesn't and probably won't play anywhere else.

[therealbig3]

Well for someone who just said I look at the box score too much, that's all you used in your Parker vs d-will vs Lopez comparison. And a lot of your criticisms of d-will are from the beginning of the season and in no way are reflective of how he played overall. He actually finished at the rim better than Westbrook this year, but that doesn't fit your narrative I guess. He was also an excellent outside shooter this year, by far better than Parker.

And the spurs winning without their best players just tells me that nobody is the catalyst and nobody is irreplaceable. When someone misses games, Pop plugs in another player and the spurs keep winning.

And the only times d-will was mediocre were the first 2 months of the season, he was quite good the rest of the way.

[mademan]

I hope your not trying to say by that GIF that Parker caused that 3 pointer. He ran the play correctly and it was a defensive mistake by GS (by barnes probably). The coach likely told them to switch everything and Barnes had a brain fart. Parker didn't do anything special there.

[Mutnt]

Well for someone who just said I look at the box score too much, that's all you used in your Parker vs d-will vs Lopez comparison. And a lot of your criticisms of d-will are from the beginning of the season and in no way are reflective of how he played overall. He actually finished at the rim better than Westbrook this year, but that doesn't fit your narrative I guess. He was also an excellent outside shooter this year, by far better than Parker.

How can I prove to you that Parker had a better season than D-Will? I provided tangible statistical evidence, can't really do more than that to convince you. Might look at +/- derived stats, but I'm not a big fan of those (plus, I'm certain Parker would come up on top there as well)- You might have watched ever Spurs and Nets game this season and still not be convinced D-Will had the better season.

Still worse than Parker around the rim and his shooting is inconsistent (had stretches when he was scorching and stretches where he couldn't hit wide open shots). Next year he'll probably flop back to 33% or something, like he usually does.

I'm sure D-Will is the better passer (he proved that in the past) but this year they were virtually tied in assists per game and Parker had a better AST%. Of course, this has more to do with the fact that D-Will played in a chaotic (albeit talented) offense with a lot of new players, little chemistry, a coaching change etc. but again, that's not Parker's fault.

And the spurs winning without their best players just tells me that nobody is the catalyst and nobody is irreplaceable. When someone misses games, Pop plugs in another player and the spurs keep winning.

Cool, I have no problem with you conclusion. I just hope you're consistently applying that logic and removing Duncan from the Top 5 as well, since, as you stated, nobody is irreplaceable and the Spurs can just plug bench players and win games.

And the only times d-will was mediocre were the first 2 months of the season, he was quite good the rest of the way.

Mediocre is an understatement, he was putrid in the first two months (30 games) and it counts just as much as the last two months. D-Will didn't have a better season (not regular season and not postseason) than Parker, we should stop cause there's really no real argument for it.

[Mutnt]

I hope your not trying to say by that GIF that Parker caused that 3 pointer. He ran the play correctly and it was a defensive mistake by GS (by barnes probably). The coach likely told them to switch everything and Barnes had a brain fart. Parker didn't do anything special there.

If you watched the game, you'd know that Golden State should've won that game in regular time, but the Spurs came back behind 8 points by Parker in the last 6 minutes. In the 2 OT, Parker scored 6 points to put the Spurs from down 3 to up 3. He took 26 shots overall in that game, a lot of them in the clutch, where he was very aggressive. At that point, everyone knew they'd go to Parker, he was their defacto closer and the best guy to create a quick shot out of nothing (notice how Duncan wasn't even in the game in this situation, even though the Warriors were up by just 1 point) but Barnes didn't want to give Parker an inch and Jack thought Barnes was going to stay on Ginobili. Both guys stick on Parker, Ginobili gets wide open, Warriors lose.

[CBA]

Has therealbig3 actually formulated an argument for Deron over Parker? Or are we supposed to take seriously the idea that Parker was completely replaceable in some intangible way that Williams wasn't.

[therealbig3]

Has therealbig3 actually formulated an argument for Deron over Parker? Or are we supposed to take seriously the idea that Parker was completely replaceable in some intangible way that Williams wasn't.

Deron is a better scorer, passer, and overall offensive player than Parker, and this is evident by watching them play and seeing Deron's superior court vision and passing ability. Deron shoots better from the perimeter, and although not as good as Parker in terms of penetrating and finishing at the rim, is quite good in his own right. And due to his superior passing and shooting ability, he runs the PnR better than Parker as well.

I think Parker puts up numbers that look similar to Deron's, because he's in a system that would benefit any other star PG tremendously, and even then, Parker was pretty inconsistent and had an overall unimpressive playoffs. I do think Deron was far more irreplaceable, because he IS the Nets offense, which WASN'T nearly as tailor-made to his strengths as the Spurs system was to Parker's strengths, and the Nets offense is so much more dependent on D-Will than the Spurs offense on Parker. The fact that he was still able to put up similar numbers in a system far less conducive to a PG's success tells me he's a better player.

D-Will in the RS: 19/8, 57% TS, 118 ORating
Parker in the RS: 20/8, 59% TS, 116 ORating

It's hard to compare their playoff numbers, because D-Will was eliminated in the 1st round, while Parker had a deep playoff run as a result of being on a much better team, but I don't see D-Will struggling nearly as much against the Warriors or Heat, thanks to his better shooting and better passing. D-Will put up pretty good overall numbers against the Bulls, and played pretty similarly to Parker against the Grizzlies. Both teams were excellent defensively.

BTW, Parker barely shot any better at the rim than D-Will this season, according to BBR: 67.0% vs 66.5%.

[CBA]

Has therealbig3 actually formulated an argument for Deron over Parker? Or are we supposed to take seriously the idea that Parker was completely replaceable in some intangible way that Williams wasn't.

Deron is a better scorer, passer, and overall offensive player than Parker, and this is evident by watching them play and seeing Deron's superior court vision and passing ability. Deron shoots better from the perimeter, and although not as good as Parker in terms of penetrating and finishing at the rim, is quite good in his own right. And due to his superior passing and shooting ability, he runs the PnR better than Parker as well.

A strange thing to say considering Deron scored less, assisted the ball less and turned over the ball more, and produced a lesser offensive team despite player with good offensive talent.

I think Parker puts up numbers that look similar to Deron's,

They don't look similar; they look better. And they are.

because he's in a system that would benefit any other star PG tremendously, and even then, Parker was pretty inconsistent and had an overall unimpressive playoffs. I do think Deron was far more irreplaceable, because he IS the Nets offense, which WASN'T nearly as tailor-made to his strengths as the Spurs system was to Parker's strengths, and the Nets offense is so much more dependent on D-Will than the Spurs offense on Parker. The fact that he was still able to put up similar numbers in a system far less conducive to a PG's success tells me he's a better player.

D-Will in the RS: 19/8, 57% TS, 118 ORating
Parker in the RS: 20/8, 59% TS, 116 ORating

This is all intangible and without evidence. One could just as easily claim that Parker would have accomplished a lot more than Deron in Brooklyn because he is a more capable player off the ball. You want to credit a player for play he didn't achieve and discard the actual, tangible play another put forward. This may be appropriate in a consideration of talent, but not in a consideration of who had the better season.

Anyway, it's more that Parker benefits the system than the other way around.

It's hard to compare their playoff numbers

Because Deron's team lost to a injury decimated Bulls with a fully healthy squad and home court advantage.

[CBA]

Also, how is 25/10/4/59% similar to 20/8/3/57%? Also, the difference between the Grizzlies defense and the Bulls defense is the difference between the Bulls defense and the Rockets defense. Also, Hinrich and Deng were injured.

[therealbig3]

Parker is not a better off-ball player than Deron, seriously? Have you watched Deron play? Parker is in constant motion, he's great at that, but Deron is one of the best screen-setters at the PG position, if not the best. I didn't actually count, but there were numerous times he freed up Lopez for an easy basket just by setting a hard screen on his man. Parker can't do that. And Parker isn't a threat as a shooter, at least not nearly as good as D-Will. D-Will is probably the 2nd best off-ball PG in the league, after Curry.

A strange thing to say considering Deron scored less, assisted the ball less and turned over the ball more, and produced a lesser offensive team despite player with good offensive talent.

These are all very negligible differences, which can easily be explained by differences in coaching and teammates.

And I've already pointed out that the Nets do NOT have good offensive talent. There's D-Will and Lopez. Joe Johnson sucks, Gerald Wallace was historically bad, and nobody else really provides anything offensively. Are we really going to compare that to the Spurs offensive talent?

And despite the Spurs obvious advantage in offensive talent and coaching, their offense was barely any better than the Nets offense this year. A .1 difference in ORating, so they were pretty much identical. The Spurs advantage as a team over the Nets has to do with the vast gulf in defense between the two teams.

This is all intangible and without evidence. One could just as easily claim that Parker would have accomplished a lot more than Deron in Brooklyn because he is a more capable player off the ball. You want to credit a player for play he didn't achieve and discard the actual, tangible play another put forward. This may be appropriate in a consideration of talent, but not in a consideration of who had the better season.

It's not without evidence, it's based on my analysis of their skillsets and based on what I saw this season...the Nets offense is heavily ISO-based with a lack of shooters, which is the total opposite of what you want when you have a great PG. We all saw how good the Spurs offense is and is predicated on ball movement, player movement, and PnRs, which is exactly what a great PG needs. I think Deron would do GREAT in that kind of offense, that plays exactly to his strengths.

Anyway, it's more that Parker benefits the system than the other way around.

I disagree. I don't think you could plug any PG in for Parker, but I think if you plug in CP3, Curry, or D-Will, the Spurs would do better.

Because Deron's team lost to a injury decimated Bulls with a fully healthy squad and home court advantage.

Honestly, I don't really mind if you hold this against him. But I personally thought he played well and was one of two Nets players to do so (Lopez being the other one). To me, they lost to an underdog and undermanned Bulls team by being badly outcoached. That's rarely, if ever, an issue for the Spurs, although some would argue that's what happened in the Finals.

[therealbig3]

Also, how is 25/10/4/59% similar to 20/8/3/57%? Also, the difference between the Grizzlies defense and the Bulls defense is the difference between the Bulls defense and the Rockets defense. Also, Hinrich and Deng were injured.

Actually, Hinrich, Deng, AND Noah were injured.

So I was wrong with this one actually, my bad, and I didn't realize that the Bulls were that far back of the Grizzlies defensively. But I'd point out that Jimmy Butler spent a lot of time guarding Deron, the same guy who probably did the best job of defending LeBron this playoffs.