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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#121 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:21 pm

fishercob wrote:
Ruzious wrote:By him adding the words "long term", does that mean Alex Len? Considering that Porter and even Bennett should be productive rookies (if one gains weight and the other loses weight) - why would he make a point of saying long term?


Could mean any one of a number of things. Could mean that they're not going to pass on Noel if he's there just because he's out until Christmas. Could mean they're taking Giannis Adetokunbo :-)


seems to me that one could easily say that EG has been too long term in his thinking
in that he wishfully projects development that hasn't happened yet over actual skills
that exist or have been demonstrated.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#122 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:21 pm

The Consiglieri wrote: As usual seems like people are consistently passing over, and airbrushing the flaws of their favored prospects, and lowering the LA Confidential-esque interrogation lamp on any flaw, real or perceived, that a player they don't like has.


Pot meet kettle.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#123 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:23 pm

Dat2U wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
So basically it all comes down to athleticism, despite the fact that some of the best man defenders of the last 10 years have been average to simply above average athletically--Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell, Tayshaun Prince, Shane Battier, older Ron Artest, Aaron Afflalo, etc.

The sort of system that Porter played in really can't be understated. Defensive focused, almost primarily in the half court (very very low percentage of his points scored were in transition), slow paced, and yet he still had high foul rates.

That bodes well for his offensive potential in a faster paced system that will get out in transition.


I have serious questions about a few aspects of Porter, and these questions are much bigger red flags to me, than Bennett gaining weight while injured, or even Len's highly uneven production, or Noel's injury. My first concern is the lack of athleticism, particularly on the offensive end, suggests he'll never be a difference maker on that side of the court. Now perhaps his work rate and habits (improved 3 point shot is in my view, both an outlier that isn't predictive of future production, but also an outlier that is predictive of how Otto will address issues in his game, w/WORK) can limit the issues he has in athleticism, but I tend to doubt it. I think he tops off as an average offensive weapon w/a slight chance of being above average. I worry that his ability to defend so well at Georgetown may not translate at an equal rate to the NBA. I worry that his limits athletically could leave him as no better than a solid defender at the next level, and if that happens, the pick could be a disaster.

My chief concern, as its been all along, is that he simply isn't an elite player in any phase or skill save for length. The rebounding rate is nice, and close to elite but not there, and the lack of athletic ability scares me there too, though his effort and work habits suggests he will max out whatever ability he has. Studying the draft for 25 years (in this sport in particular but also in others), the three trends that are most consistent harbingers of a dark future involve: having a lot of "good" skills, but no great ones, lacking athleticism to compete at the next level, and work habits and IQ. For me, Otto ticks off 2 of the 3 biggest red flag boxes there are. The one asset he does have, that is huge is that he does have ideal length, and his combo of work habits/work rate/BBIQ are off the charts. That could negate a great deal of the negative. The problem I have, is that I see far more "try hard, work hard" guys fail because they don't have the next level athleticism and elite skill(s), than I see guys fail that lack ideal work habits and BBIQ. You can't teach athleticism, and many of the skills. In most cases by the time you're 19-24, the development that happens is finishing touches, the key development already happened or did not happened in the players childhood or teenage hood. That's why the Spurs have eschewed using assets on so many young American players these days, the bad habits, and built in flaws that Pop hates, are already ingrained. The deal maker and deal breaker for me is to what degree a player is compromised by his lack of athleticism, or considerations on his work rate, work habits, BBIQ, athleticism, skill level etc.

For me, Otto is more compromised than Bennett, because we have far more evidence of what Otto is, than we have with Bennett. Earlier a poster suggested this was another reason to pass on Bennett, but for me it's actually a reason to focus more on Bennett. Bennett showed tremendous athleticism, and skill despite being injured for nearly a quarter of the season. What might we have? I do not know. Porter provides a bit more certainty for sure, but I simply don't think he's worth the 3 slot because of the ceiling issue. The criticism's of Bennett's issues are often more than fair, though some stray into inaccuracy, and outright fiction. Still, he definitely has more red flags in terms of concerns.

My issue is that Porter has more red flags in terms of ability to make a difference at the next level. You should not be taking a player 3rd, who you consider the 4th best option on your squad going forward. That simply makes no sense to me. If that's what you see when you evaluate him, a jack of all trades, contributor, who'll be the 4th best guy on your squad, then he has no business going 3rd, period, you should either trade down, trade the pick entirely, or pick an upside guy like a Len, or a Bennett, or a Noel if he fell, or Oladipo. I can see the justification for Porter, if you believe Pelton's analysis of him, particularly the age/length/work habits angel. Otherwise, the pick makes zero sense to me. It's aiming low and being satisfied with mediocrity for the forseeable future, and that's not good enough.

Here's that truth about it spurs article from last week:

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/06/the ... model.html


There's so many fallacies and broad generalizations in your post I wouldn't know where to begin.

But bottom line, your underrating Porter as an athlete, it's already mentioned he tested out athletically better than Kawhi Leonard who you tout as having elite athleticism.

Your also basically putting a ceiling on his skill level which is odd considering he just turned 20, is still younger than Bennett and improved his skill greatly b/w his frosh & sophomore seasons.


Could be. Porter may be better than I think. As for fallacies and broad generalizations, these are observations from over 25 years of spending serious time investigating the draft, more than 100 individual drafts, including 24 NBA drafts. They are reliable trends. Not facts, to be sure, but reliable trends that have born out again and again and again. Maybe Porter will be an exception, maybe Porter has a higher ceiling than I think. We'll see. Sometimes playing in a rigorous system like Georgetown can camouflage a players true potential. Maybe Porter ends up being a case in point. I love the length, work habits, IQ, and age. There's room to be excited to be sure, but room to be very alarmed as well if you're taking a player with his flags at #3, just like with Bennett.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#124 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:29 pm

Severn Hoos wrote:
fishercob wrote:This is some John Nash Beautiful Mind stuff.



Please don't mention John Nash so close to the draft.


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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#125 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:29 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Honestly, I have more concerns about Bennett's defense than Olynyk's. And I don't get why wingspan is STILL the go to measurement for measuring a person's length when that is not even true. His standing reach is acceptable and I think he can be passable at the position with a combination of effort & intelligence. As long as you have the prerequisite length, defense is mainly about effort. I saw nothing wrong with Olynyk's effort at Gonzaga. His defense wasn't always great, but the effort was there.

So... by focusing on his standing reach, we should ignore the fact that he was the slowest tested player at the combine?


The fact he's the slowest player tested means as much to me as Cody Zeller being as athletic as Blake Griffin or Trevor Booker being faster than John Wall.

I hear ya on that, but you're going way overboard on both Bennett and Olynyk. If you listen to yourself, you're describing Bennett as a lazy fat elf moron who can't tie his sneakers, and you're talking about Olynyk as the second coming of Bill Walton. It's like your hate for Jamison - it gets old after a while.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#126 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:30 pm

AFM wrote:Is the Verizon Center doing another draft event thing? I went to the one last year. Everyone started cheering after the 2nd pick because we knew we were getting Beal.


Yes. VC is doing a draft party.

So if I want to find you, look for the guy with a face like Cal Booth
but a foot shorter?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#127 » by Dark Faze » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:31 pm

dobrojim wrote:
fishercob wrote:
Ruzious wrote:By him adding the words "long term", does that mean Alex Len? Considering that Porter and even Bennett should be productive rookies (if one gains weight and the other loses weight) - why would he make a point of saying long term?


Could mean any one of a number of things. Could mean that they're not going to pass on Noel if he's there just because he's out until Christmas. Could mean they're taking Giannis Adetokunbo :-)


seems to me that one could easily say that EG has been too long term in his thinking
in that he wishfully projects development that hasn't happened yet over actual skills
that exist or have been demonstrated.


Bingo.

I literally don't even consider actual improvement or develop of new skills into consideration when it comes to prospects. My whole way of gauging players is " how likely is said player to achieve the sort of play that he already HAS at the college level".

It's about guys learning the NBA game and starting to up their production to what they were able to achieve against inferior competition.

Problem with GM's is they start trying to project guys doing things they literally didn't even show at all in college.

That's not to say a guy can't get better, but I'm not about to draft a guy based on things that don't exist.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#128 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:33 pm

Dat2U wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote: As usual seems like people are consistently passing over, and airbrushing the flaws of their favored prospects, and lowering the LA Confidential-esque interrogation lamp on any flaw, real or perceived, that a player they don't like has.


Pot meet kettle.


Absurd on its face.

I've noted Bennett's weight gain, I've noted Bennett's issues on D, I've noted the small sample size as a positive and a negative, I've even done a game by game log of his inconsistencies in terms of productivity (really was erratic in conference play in particular), I also harped on the idiotic tweet he sent out about sleeping in till the afternoon when he's supposedly marketing himself, even if injured, for GM's and scouts. No evidence available he has the work rate, habits, or high level BBIQ as Porter (though to be sure, there is no clear indictment either).

Vast majority of Porter boosters are basically shredding Bennett, a few making up things out of whole cloth as they do so, while completely ignoring his positives, and cherry picking scouting reports and videos.

I don't see sfam doing that, I don't see me doing that, and McQueen has been balanced with Bennett discussing plenty of his flaws as well (though he has multiple fav players). Ditto dczards.

As I've already said, I love Porter's work rate, I love his BBIQ, I think he'd be in keeping w/what we're already building which is a highly intelligent, fundamentally sound team that consistently makes the right decisions with and without the ball. Very coachable, great length. Will have a role and will do it well. Great work habits suggest whatever potential he has, will be reached. Cannot say the same about Bennett as there is no evidence for or against it to this point, other than spotty D track record.

The issue in the final analysis, is that I err towards the player with elite skill(s) that would be elite on the next level, and athleticism, over the player with lesser versions of both qualities but higher work rate/BBIQ (I recognize that you don't believe Bennett has skills that would be elite at the next level in part because of the tweener issue and no reliable comps going back decade(s) ). I'll basically always take the player with 2 of the 3 qualities, rather than 1, even if the 1, pushes up the floor because I'm aimed at the ceiling angle rather than the floor. The only times a player with only the work rate/BBIQ box against another prospect in an eval turns out better is generally when he was misevaluated in terms of the former two traits, which does happen, and could be the case with Porter (which is why I fluctuate between Bennett, and Oladipo, and would not be super upset with Porter).
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#129 » by LyricalRico » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:37 pm

Bennett sucks! Discuss!
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#130 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:37 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:So... by focusing on his standing reach, we should ignore the fact that he was the slowest tested player at the combine?


The fact he's the slowest player tested means as much to me as Cody Zeller being as athletic as Blake Griffin or Trevor Booker being faster than John Wall.

I hear ya on that, but you're going way overboard on both Bennett and Olynyk. If you listen to yourself, you're describing Bennett as a lazy fat elf moron who can't tie his sneakers, and you're talking about Olynyk as the second coming of Bill Walton. It's like your hate for Jamison - it gets old after a while.


Am I really going overboard or are we just rehashing points that have been made time & time again because the subject matter always seems to involve those 2. I'd talk about Burke, MCW or KCP but no one seems really interested in those debates.

And I guess my hate for Jamison got old because he was here for so long. I'm a bit of a basketball purist so when I see a lack of effort or unwillingness to work on defense, it really bothers me. With Jamison it bothered me even more because he was miscast as some type of leader, mentor and ideal example of how a professional player should be. Ugh, I want to throw up in my mouth just thinking about it. :evil: :lol:
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#131 » by Jay81 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:38 pm

I am not sold that Bennett is going to be a bust. He might be a 20 point scorer but I cant take that risk with this organization. Everytime we go for "upside", it blows up in our face. We cant afford that this year. Porter is little risk and its a better chance that he ends up better than Bennett away. Maybe Bennett is the more "Fun,sexy pick" but Porter is the better fit
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#132 » by Knighthonor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:40 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:So... by focusing on his standing reach, we should ignore the fact that he was the slowest tested player at the combine?


The fact he's the slowest player tested means as much to me as Cody Zeller being as athletic as Blake Griffin or Trevor Booker being faster than John Wall.

I hear ya on that, but you're going way overboard on both Bennett and Olynyk. If you listen to yourself, you're describing Bennett as a lazy fat elf moron who can't tie his sneakers, and you're talking about Olynyk as the second coming of Bill Walton. It's like your hate for Jamison - it gets old after a while.

I want to know where this rumor that Bennett is immature is coming from. Nobody has answered that.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#133 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:40 pm

Dat2U wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:
Tomorrow, all of this will be over.


No, tomorrow the madness begins all over again. just on a different thread. There could be outrage and mutiny on this board, especially if the Zards draft Bennett, Len...basically anyone other than Noel or Porter.


I'm sorry we can't all hum lullabies and sing kumbaya while praising the brilliant work of Ernie & the crew here. If you can find a place where that occurs, please let me know. I'd love to see it.


Well with so many possibilities, EG is almost guaranteed to have some defenders
on Friday no matter what he does.

My board BTW is:

Noel
Porter
??? VO or Zeller

for top 3/4

Not enamored of Len, he could be a big mistake. Olynyk would be a clear reach @ 3
but I agree with the pro-Oly group, he figures to be at minimum, serviceable.

OP does have some questions but I'd be pretty comfy overall with him as the guy.
A trade down that netted us both CJM/MCW/KCP and Zeller or Olynyk has some appeal
in that it could bolster our woeful bench. Seriously doubt anything like that happens.

I'd be very happy with a trade with the key elements being we give up #3 for say Horford.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#134 » by Dark Faze » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:42 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... nba-draft/

^ Link to a brief pre-draft presser with Ernie.

Honestly a lot of it seems to point towards Porter. He talks about wanting to continue to go with the core that we had and building on what we'd already done, drafting the best fit for that model, and also talks hinting that there are other ways to fulfill Walls request for a stretch 4 that don't necessarily require a draft pick.

I don't see how Bennett lines up with that kind of talk at all.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#135 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:44 pm

theGreatRC wrote:Don't know if this has been posted yet, but...

Beal knows both Porter and Bennett but deferred to the front office on the decision. Wall didn’t make a specific choice but has repeatedly stated his desire to have a “stretch four” or “pick-and-pop” big man to spread the floor and create space. Bennett would appear to be the meet that criteria with his sophisticated offensive game and ability to score from all parts of the floor.


Wonder if Ernie would still take D-Will and 9. You still get your stretch 4 plus another pick to fill another hole or package the 9 with another player..


Why is Bennett that guy and not Zeller?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#136 » by Knighthonor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:45 pm

Jay81 wrote:I am not sold that Bennett is going to be a bust. He might be a 20 point scorer but I cant take that risk with this organization. Everytime we go for "upside", it blows up in our face. We cant afford that this year. Porter is little risk and its a better chance that he ends up better than Bennett away. Maybe Bennett is the more "Fun,sexy pick" but Porter is the better fit

Upside?
When was the last time other than Beal and Wall that the Wizards drafting off of upside?

Jan clearly had no skills coming into the draft other than what we saw last year.
KS was a project, he started basketball late.
Singleton wasnt highly regarded, so no surprise here.
Booker? Like really. He does what was intended. Didnt have high expectations for him, so he delivered in my book.
KS also delivered well but does poorly after being benched. So he lost confidence. But was a slight steal.

Drummonds unlike the rest of the bigs, are coming into the draft with high skill level from start. Not a later on developments. He can only get better. As is, he better than all current backup bigs, and can even explode past the vet starter bigs.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#137 » by queridiculo » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:45 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
Guys like him? He played 3/4's of one college season, and his coach raves about his positive attitude, willingness to work, and to fill whatever role he's asked to play in. What is a "guy like him".


Guys like him - players that pound their chests after a big dunk or a hitting a jumper and don't bother expending a lick of energy and effort on defense.

Players that don't have the desire and pride to compete as hard on the other end of the court.

Those are players like him, the Jamison's of this world.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#138 » by Jay81 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:46 pm

Lets do this......

I would not hate Ernie if he drafted at 3

a)Porter b) Victor O c) Zeller

If he picks any of those guys, i would not be that upset
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#139 » by Knighthonor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:47 pm

dobrojim wrote:
theGreatRC wrote:Don't know if this has been posted yet, but...

Beal knows both Porter and Bennett but deferred to the front office on the decision. Wall didn’t make a specific choice but has repeatedly stated his desire to have a “stretch four” or “pick-and-pop” big man to spread the floor and create space. Bennett would appear to be the meet that criteria with his sophisticated offensive game and ability to score from all parts of the floor.


Wonder if Ernie would still take D-Will and 9. You still get your stretch 4 plus another pick to fill another hole or package the 9 with another player..


Why is Bennett that guy and not Zeller?

Bennett>>>Zeller
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#140 » by Jay81 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:47 pm

Knighthonor wrote:
Jay81 wrote:I am not sold that Bennett is going to be a bust. He might be a 20 point scorer but I cant take that risk with this organization. Everytime we go for "upside", it blows up in our face. We cant afford that this year. Porter is little risk and its a better chance that he ends up better than Bennett away. Maybe Bennett is the more "Fun,sexy pick" but Porter is the better fit

Upside?
When was the last time other than Beal and Wall that the Wizards drafting off of upside?

Jan clearly had no skills coming into the draft other than what we saw last year.
KS was a project, he started basketball late.
Singleton wasnt highly regarded, so no surprise here.
Booker? Like really. He does what was intended. Didnt have high expectations for him, so he delivered in my book.
KS also delivered well but does poorly after being benched. So he lost confidence. But was a slight steal.

Drummonds unlike the rest of the bigs, are coming into the draft with high skill level from start. Not a later on developments. He can only get better. As is, he better than all current backup bigs, and can even explode past the vet starter bigs.



Vesley was clearly an upside pick since he had no skills whatsoever. You dont draft someone at 6 without skills if you dont think he has some kind of upside lol. Or maybe you do if you are Ernie G

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