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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#141 » by Knighthonor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:48 pm

queridiculo wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
Guys like him? He played 3/4's of one college season, and his coach raves about his positive attitude, willingness to work, and to fill whatever role he's asked to play in. What is a "guy like him".


Guys like him - players that pound their chests after a big dunk or a hitting a jumper and don't bother expending a lick of energy and effort on defense.

Players that don't have the desire and pride to compete as hard on the other end of the court.

Those are players like him, the Jamison's of this world.

Wtf this is pure nonsense, and I know nonsense.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#142 » by Knighthonor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:51 pm

Jay81 wrote:
Knighthonor wrote:
Jay81 wrote:I am not sold that Bennett is going to be a bust. He might be a 20 point scorer but I cant take that risk with this organization. Everytime we go for "upside", it blows up in our face. We cant afford that this year. Porter is little risk and its a better chance that he ends up better than Bennett away. Maybe Bennett is the more "Fun,sexy pick" but Porter is the better fit

Upside?
When was the last time other than Beal and Wall that the Wizards drafting off of upside?

Jan clearly had no skills coming into the draft other than what we saw last year.
KS was a project, he started basketball late.
Singleton wasnt highly regarded, so no surprise here.
Booker? Like really. He does what was intended. Didnt have high expectations for him, so he delivered in my book.
KS also delivered well but does poorly after being benched. So he lost confidence. But was a slight steal.

Drummonds unlike the rest of the bigs, are coming into the draft with high skill level from start. Not a later on developments. He can only get better. As is, he better than all current backup bigs, and can even explode past the vet starter bigs.



Vesley was clearly an upside pick since he had no skills whatsoever. You dont draft someone at 6 without skills if you dont think he has some kind of upside lol. Or maybe you do if you are Ernie G

Vesly was a huge bad pick based off emotional choice rather than talent. Go back and review that draft. He never proved he deserved that pick at all more so than the other players in that draft. EG could have easily traded down for that.
So clearly it was a emotionally motivated draft pick. No upside. Just emotional attachment as a blindness.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#143 » by nuposse04 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:55 pm

Jay81 wrote:Lets do this......

I would not hate Ernie if he drafted at 3

a)Porter b) Victor O c) Zeller

If he picks any of those guys, i would not be that upset


A)Noel B)Porter C)Len (people might be surprised at that one)
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#144 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Jay81 wrote:I am not sold that Bennett is going to be a bust. He might be a 20 point scorer but I cant take that risk with this organization. Everytime we go for "upside", it blows up in our face. We cant afford that this year. Porter is little risk and its a better chance that he ends up better than Bennett away. Maybe Bennett is the more "Fun,sexy pick" but Porter is the better fit


As I'm from the bay area, I saw the Warriors get gun shy after Webber in the "'94 Summer of Hate" fest with Don Nelson, and viewed first hand a team taking a negative experience w/one player (and later another player with Spreewell and Chokegate) and dictating player personnel decisions on that experience for the forseeable future distorted a teams direction, development, and future as a whole. Going conservative was an abject disaster for the Warriors after that. They repeatedly erred on the side of caution in draft after draft following the Webber and Spreewell disasters, and as a result, picked Joe Smith instead of Wallace, or Garnett, picked Todd Freaking Fuller instead of Kobe, picked Adonal Foyle instead of Tracy McGrady, Jeff Foster in '99 (after doing a good job with Jamison in '99), JRich and Troy Murphy in '01, Dunleavy in '02 (what was it about obsessing on taking unathletic big men over and over again in the late nineties and early aughts?)? The failures would continue, but draft policy would change with Chris Mullin who would move from an advisory role to the head of the F.O. in '04.

I just can't be a party to following that kind of policy in terms of team building. I don't mind the Spurs and their nebulous Spurs-men, technique, in which essentially work habits, dedication, intelligence, and character are key note traits in their team building, because their scouting of players who possess those traits AND can become great pro's is damn near peerless not just in the NBA, but in sports as a whole over the past 15 years. But the vast majority of teams don't have that kind of quality in place in the F.O., and should focus instead on team building strategies in the long term, merged with evaluating prospects in the here and right now, rather than based on the aggravation of a Baltche two years ago, or a Gungate three years ago etc. Make decisions based on the here and now w/regards to a players worthiness of being drafted by you, while making decisions for team building itself based on the long view, rather than the short term. It's fine and good to make chemistry, and character a part of your process, but it isn't a wise consideration if it makes you gun shy, and downright stupid when greatness or vastly superior quality is staring right back at you in an eval process, which is what was the problem with what the Warriors did circa '95-''02, what the Wizards did in the '96 and '98 offseasons etc.

I don't want experiences with Young, McGee or Baltche dicating what we do going forward. Judge every player based on his own merits. Players are individuals, and are unique, they aren't Young, or McGee doppelgangors. If a player with upside has a ton of Young, or McGee or Baltche flags, by all means pass, but don't pass simply because you're worried "they might". Bennett doesn't strike me as anything like any of those three. Neither does Porter by a long stretch. We should make our decision based exclusively upon whom we think will make the best player over the next decade, and then pull the trigger. If any other consideration trumps that. It is wrong. Period.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#145 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:00 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
Absurd on its face.

I've noted Bennett's weight gain, I've noted Bennett's issues on D, I've noted the small sample size as a positive and a negative, I've even done a game by game log of his inconsistencies in terms of productivity (really was erratic in conference play in particular), I also harped on the idiotic tweet he sent out about sleeping in till the afternoon when he's supposedly marketing himself, even if injured, for GM's and scouts. No evidence available he has the work rate, habits, or high level BBIQ as Porter (though to be sure, there is no clear indictment either).

Vast majority of Porter boosters are basically shredding Bennett, a few making up things out of whole cloth as they do so, while completely ignoring his positives, and cherry picking scouting reports and videos.

I don't see sfam doing that, I don't see me doing that, and McQueen has been balanced with Bennett discussing plenty of his flaws as well (though he has multiple fav players). Ditto dczards.

As I've already said, I love Porter's work rate, I love his BBIQ, I think he'd be in keeping w/what we're already building which is a highly intelligent, fundamentally sound team that consistently makes the right decisions with and without the ball. Very coachable, great length. Will have a role and will do it well. Great work habits suggest whatever potential he has, will be reached. Cannot say the same about Bennett as there is no evidence for or against it to this point, other than spotty D track record.

The issue in the final analysis, is that I err towards the player with elite skill(s) that would be elite on the next level, and athleticism, over the player with lesser versions of both qualities but higher work rate/BBIQ (I recognize that you don't believe Bennett has skills that would be elite at the next level in part because of the tweener issue and no reliable comps going back decade(s) ). I'll basically always take the player with 2 of the 3 qualities, rather than 1, even if the 1, pushes up the floor because I'm aimed at the ceiling angle rather than the floor. The only times a player with only the work rate/BBIQ box against another prospect in an eval turns out better is generally when he was misevaluated in terms of the former two traits, which does happen, and could be the case with Porter (which is why I fluctuate between Bennett, and Oladipo, and would not be super upset with Porter).


In reality I don't give a rats ass who's analysis is fair & balanced. This isn't cable news. It's about finding the right fit & determining who's going to be the correct choice. I may not sound very balanced now but for the majority of the year I kept a completely open mind about Bennett. I didn't even really comment on him until I watched him thoroughly. My opinion is based on what I've analyzed. With my argumentative nature, what I believe certainly may come across as very opinionated and even irritate some folks, so be it. At 38, if I haven't changed by now, I'm probably not going to.

And after watching Bennett over the past season, I feel pretty locked into where I'm at. I scouted him multiple times to see if I was missing something. But this goes for everyone. I don't have any preconceived notions about players when I initially scout them. I wasn't always an Olynyk fan, but the more I saw, the more I like. I was very high on Zeller in the draft process last season and cooled on him early this season but when I re-evaluated after the college season was over, I softened my stance and now consider him one of the five best prospects in this draft. So it's not like I'm inflexible or I don't second guess my own opinions.

But this nonsense about "airbrushing flaws" or suggesting that I'm being disingenuous about the things I say rubs me the wrong way because that's absolutely not the case. I think I do a fair job of qualifying my statements with reasoned arguments and facts. You certainly don't have to agree with me but trying to minimize my position by suggesting the above is plain wrong.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#146 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:01 pm

Jay81 wrote:Lets do this......

I would not hate Ernie if he drafted at 3

a)Porter b) Victor O c) Zeller

If he picks any of those guys, i would not be that upset


That's scarey. I agree with Ji.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#147 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:02 pm

Knighthonor wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
Guys like him? He played 3/4's of one college season, and his coach raves about his positive attitude, willingness to work, and to fill whatever role he's asked to play in. What is a "guy like him".


Guys like him - players that pound their chests after a big dunk or a hitting a jumper and don't bother expending a lick of energy and effort on defense.

Players that don't have the desire and pride to compete as hard on the other end of the court.

Those are players like him, the Jamison's of this world.

Wtf this is pure nonsense, and I know nonsense.


I don't think any more needs to be said.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#148 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:02 pm

queridiculo wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
Guys like him? He played 3/4's of one college season, and his coach raves about his positive attitude, willingness to work, and to fill whatever role he's asked to play in. What is a "guy like him".


Guys like him - players that pound their chests after a big dunk or a hitting a jumper and don't bother expending a lick of energy and effort on defense.

Players that don't have the desire and pride to compete as hard on the other end of the court.

Those are players like him, the Jamison's of this world.


We don't know the whats or why's that played a roll in Bennett's ugly non-metric related D (the metrics say he was competent, for what its worth, although the tape tells a different story), and I don't think you can define a player w/o knowing what his coach was actually asking of him and wanted of him, particularly being injured for 8 of the games, asthma and the rest of it. It wouldn't be the first time a coach asked a player to worry about the offensive end, and stay out of foul trouble on the defensive end and not sweat it as much.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#149 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:08 pm

dobrojim wrote:
Knighthonor wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
Guys like him - players that pound their chests after a big dunk or a hitting a jumper and don't bother expending a lick of energy and effort on defense.

Players that don't have the desire and pride to compete as hard on the other end of the court.

Those are players like him, the Jamison's of this world.

Wtf this is pure nonsense, and I know nonsense.


I don't think any more needs to be said.


:lol:
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#150 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:11 pm

Dat2U wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
Absurd on its face.

I've noted Bennett's weight gain, I've noted Bennett's issues on D, I've noted the small sample size as a positive and a negative, I've even done a game by game log of his inconsistencies in terms of productivity (really was erratic in conference play in particular), I also harped on the idiotic tweet he sent out about sleeping in till the afternoon when he's supposedly marketing himself, even if injured, for GM's and scouts. No evidence available he has the work rate, habits, or high level BBIQ as Porter (though to be sure, there is no clear indictment either).

Vast majority of Porter boosters are basically shredding Bennett, a few making up things out of whole cloth as they do so, while completely ignoring his positives, and cherry picking scouting reports and videos.

I don't see sfam doing that, I don't see me doing that, and McQueen has been balanced with Bennett discussing plenty of his flaws as well (though he has multiple fav players). Ditto dczards.

As I've already said, I love Porter's work rate, I love his BBIQ, I think he'd be in keeping w/what we're already building which is a highly intelligent, fundamentally sound team that consistently makes the right decisions with and without the ball. Very coachable, great length. Will have a role and will do it well. Great work habits suggest whatever potential he has, will be reached. Cannot say the same about Bennett as there is no evidence for or against it to this point, other than spotty D track record.

The issue in the final analysis, is that I err towards the player with elite skill(s) that would be elite on the next level, and athleticism, over the player with lesser versions of both qualities but higher work rate/BBIQ (I recognize that you don't believe Bennett has skills that would be elite at the next level in part because of the tweener issue and no reliable comps going back decade(s) ). I'll basically always take the player with 2 of the 3 qualities, rather than 1, even if the 1, pushes up the floor because I'm aimed at the ceiling angle rather than the floor. The only times a player with only the work rate/BBIQ box against another prospect in an eval turns out better is generally when he was misevaluated in terms of the former two traits, which does happen, and could be the case with Porter (which is why I fluctuate between Bennett, and Oladipo, and would not be super upset with Porter).


In reality I don't give a rats ass who's analysis is fair & balanced. This isn't cable news. It's about finding the right fit & determining who's going to be the correct choice. I may not sound very balanced now but for the majority of the year I kept a completely open mind about Bennett. I didn't even really comment on him until I watched him thoroughly. My opinion is based on what I've analyzed. With my argumentative nature, what I believe certainly may come across as very opinionated and even irritate some folks, so be it. At 38, if I haven't changed by now, I'm probably not going to.

And after watching Bennett over the past season, I feel pretty locked into where I'm at. I scouted him multiple times to see if I was missing something. But this goes for everyone. I don't have any preconceived notions about players when I initially scout them. I wasn't always an Olynyk fan, but the more I saw, the more I like. I was very high on Zeller in the draft process last season and cooled on him early this season but when I re-evaluated after the college season was over, I softened my stance and now consider him one of the five best prospects in this draft. So it's not like I'm inflexible or I don't second guess my own opinions.

But this nonsense about "airbrushing flaws" or suggesting that I'm being disingenuous about the things I say rubs me the wrong way because that's absolutely not the case. I think I do a fair job of qualifying my statements with reasoned arguments and facts. You certainly don't have to agree with me but trying to minimize my position by suggesting the above is plain wrong.


That post (actually posts since there were 2) is aimed at the board, not you, although I do feel that your analysis of his actual areas of strength seemed to deliberately low ball what he's actually excellent at. It may be a case of you simply disagreeing with the scouting consensus and what most of us see when we watched him play, or it may be white washing his skill. I don't know which, and I know you're not concerned with my perception on why you come to the judgments you do.

I've just seen you (and the vast majority of the Bennett dissenters) do this with him, and it bothers me because it hasn't been done at all when Bennett dissenters are talking up Porter, Zeller or whomever.

It may simply come down to pet peeves with prospects scouting traits which really bring out the negative in some of us. Obviously lacksadaisical effort on D is a big sticking point with many, while "jack of all trades, master of none," is a huge red flag to me (not that that is entirely fair to Porter since he's a great rebounder at the college level, and a great defender, and has great BBIQ and work rate).
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#151 » by Dark Faze » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:11 pm

I think guys who seem overzealous in their arguments against Bennett do so because his supporters simply dismiss the numerous issues that are waged against him instead of actually addressing it.

Injury prone? " No comment "
Lack of defensive effort? " But did the coach even ask him to play D? "
Gained twenty pounds despite having two fully functional legs? " He doesn't have time to stay in shape due to flying around for interviews"

With Porter, guys tell me he's unathletic compared to Kawhi and we post the numbers saying differently. People say he has limited upside offensively, we point to player similarities in Kawhi and Tayshaun that were huge parts of NBA finals or playoff teams.

There's a lot of dismissive, I hope type defensive argument in support of Bennett.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#152 » by Rafael122 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:12 pm

Didn't know Minnesota was offering Derrick Williams, the 9th and 26th pick to move up. That's a lot to give up to get Oladipo.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#153 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:13 pm

To me, Bennett seems like an ideal risk in the late lottery area. At that point, at least in my opinion, is when his upside out weighs the risk. I really think he's your classic tweener, and outside of any of the perceived negatives, he's still a risky proposition because he doesn't have a clear cut position. Regardless if this is becoming a position-less league or not, length (standing reach) still matters at the 4 or 5 spots and even with solid defensive effort, he may have big time issues defending the position adequately.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#154 » by popper » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:19 pm

No matter who we draft we are in far, far better shape this year than two years ago. I've seen Nene literally scream and glare at both Wall and Beal when they missed a rotation or gave up on a play. I've read that Okafor told Wall to suck it up, quit whining and take responsibility for his play. Admonishments from our senior veterans had a quick and beneficial effect on Wall and Beal.

Our vets are teaching the youngsters to hold one another accountable which is the beginning of a successful rebuild (sans further mistakes from EG) If Bennett is our selection, I'm going to laugh like hell the first time he goes into matador defense mode and catches a tirade of sh*t from our vets and now, Wall and Beal as well.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#155 » by stevemcqueen1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:23 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Lamb has not played enough to say he's not better than Beal.


This is an argumentum ad ignorantiam. As was your Fazekas argument earlier.

I think the mere fact that Beal was a day one starter and played major minutes while Lamb got traded and spent the year in the D League is strong evidence Beal is better.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#156 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:25 pm

popper wrote:No matter who we draft we are in far, far better shape this year than two years ago. I've seen Nene literally scream and glare at both Wall and Beal when they missed a rotation or gave up on a play. I've read that Okafor told Wall to suck it up, quit whining and take responsibility for his play. Admonishments from our senior veterans had a quick and beneficial effect on Wall and Beal.

Our vets are teaching the youngsters to hold one another accountable which is the beginning of a successful rebuild (sans further mistakes from EG) If Bennett is our selection, I'm going to laugh like hell the first time he goes into matador defense mode and catches a tirade of sh*t from our vets and now, Wall and Beal as well.

I didn't know Nene had that in him. That's good to hear.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#157 » by Mizerooskie » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:27 pm

Dark Faze wrote:I think guys who seem overzealous in their arguments against Bennett do so because his supporters simply dismiss the numerous issues that are waged against him instead of actually addressing it.

Injury prone? " No comment "
Lack of defensive effort? " But did the coach even ask him to play D? "
Gained twenty pounds despite having two fully functional legs? " He doesn't have time to stay in shape due to flying around for interviews"

With Porter, guys tell me he's unathletic compared to Kawhi and we post the numbers saying differently. People say he has limited upside offensively, we point to player similarities in Kawhi and Tayshaun that were huge parts of NBA finals or playoff teams.

There's a lot of dismissive, I hope type defensive argument in support of Bennett.
Work habits and defensive assignments are teachable and coachable. That's why they're dismissed. Mental maturation is natural to expect from a 20 year old.

Athleticism and talent aren't coachable.

The crux of the argument is raw talent vs. polished maturity. Do you want a more finished product or greater upside?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#158 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:27 pm

I think to a certain extent the anti-Bennett crowd, at least if they reason the way I
have been on AB, is dismissing his elite-ness in ball handling and scoring inside
partly because while it may still be decent or above average at the next level, the fact that
he is a tweener and that he succeeded in college based on physicality
(he does have a pro body, except for length, an important characteristic)
but that he will have much greater difficulty in doing those same things
in the NBA where there are lots of big strong fast guys as well as great
team schemes for defending the interior.

I certainly won't root for him to fail if he is our pick
(I'm not a Republican, sorry couldn't resist)
but would be somewhat more anxious about what he might end up
doing for us.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#159 » by Knighthonor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:31 pm

popper wrote:No matter who we draft we are in far, far better shape this year than two years ago. I've seen Nene literally scream and glare at both Wall and Beal when they missed a rotation or gave up on a play. I've read that Okafor told Wall to suck it up, quit whining and take responsibility for his play. Admonishments from our senior veterans had a quick and beneficial effect on Wall and Beal.

Our vets are teaching the youngsters to hold one another accountable which is the beginning of a successful rebuild (sans further mistakes from EG) If Bennett is our selection, I'm going to laugh like hell the first time he goes into matador defense mode and catches a tirade of sh*t from our vets and now, Wall and Beal as well.

That's why you have NeNe to groom Bennett to the next level star level. Bennett has the skills and a few big vet mentors right there. If it worked for Beal and Wall, imagine what it does to Bennett!!
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#160 » by Mizerooskie » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:32 pm

Have we gotten any updated measurements on Bennett? I know the assumption is that he's a tweener based on some older measurements, but is it still true?

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