How to fix the Detroit Pistons Now.

[ChipButty]

Good points HotelVitale. Another problem is that the whole offense is based around Monroe being a monster in the low post, which in my opinion he simply isn't.

Monroe was a top player in free throw attempts and offensive rebounds, illustrating how effective he is on the low block. He's frequently collapsed upon by weak-side help increasing his turnovers. Monroe misses a good amount of his FTA also.

I don't buy that this illustrates that Monroe is effective in the low block and I don't buy that teams are so concerned that they are doubling him. He's not Shaq. I don't even see Monroe set up in the low post often and when he does he often struggles 1-on-1 against bigger/longer defenders. He looks best to me in the mid/high post or elbow when he can utilize his passing skills, shoot over smaller defenders, and use his footwork to drive past slower defenders.

[E-Z]

Good points HotelVitale. Another problem is that the whole offense is based around Monroe being a monster in the low post, which in my opinion he simply isn't.

Monroe was a top player in free throw attempts and offensive rebounds, illustrating how effective he is on the low block. He's frequently collapsed upon by weak-side help increasing his turnovers. Monroe misses a good amount of his FTA also.

I don't buy that this illustrates that Monroe is effective in the low block and I don't buy that teams are so concerned that they are doubling him. He's not Shaq. I don't even see Monroe set up in the low post often and when he does he often struggles 1-on-1 against bigger/longer defenders. He looks best to me in the mid/high post or elbow when he can utilize his passing skills, shoot over smaller defenders, and use his footwork to drive past slower defenders.

What makes a player "dominant" in the post? I believe Monroe is quite a force already on the low block. He has made gains since his rookie year, and shows extremely high potential with his footwork, smarts, and aggressiveness.

Monroe has seen his post usage increase since being a rook. His efficiency here has stagnated since his sophmore season. According to Synergy Sports (paid service), Monroe's time in the post saw a 14% usage rate double to 28% this season.

In 2012 Monroe ranked 113 of all NBA players offensively. He also ranked 84th in scoring from the post. His offensive production took a nosedive this season, ranking 247 offensively, seeing decreased touches (35% to 28%) and a lower field goal percentage (43% to 41%). However, I don't believe this is his fault by any stretch.

82games.com shows that Detroit's best five man unit included Knight, Singler, Prince, Maxiell and Monroe. 2 shooters, one okay shooter, and a stretch four. They had a win percentage of 50% together (20-20).

Detroit's second winningist unit included Calderon, Knight, Singler, Maxiell, and Monroe at 46% (7-8). This unit gave up more points due to the severe lack of athleticism. This unit also scored fewer points together.

The fact that Monroe constantly faces collapsing defenses illustrates the only constant from last season up until now. He desperately needs shooters around him. The floor is poorly spaced nearly every play.

For example, Monroe had 3 post plays against Brooklyn (4/17). He was double teamed on one. Triple teamed on another. Used a face-up jumper on the third. Bynum provided entry passes each possession. Deron Williams did not respect Bynum at all whatsoever and attempted to clog the lane. Weakside help came immediately from Wallace and Lopez when Blatche was defending on one posession.

Monre had great success in the post against the Sixers (4/15). Stuckey would initiate walking up the court and Monroe setting off ball screens for either Singler or Knight. Either player would feed the ball into the post if they're not already open from the screen. Their defenders were more hesitant to cheat into the lane allowing Monroe to do whatever he wants, and he did just that.

He had 5 plays in the post and scored or drew a foul on all but one.

Knight would flub this play sometimes, by running through the lane to the weak-side. His defender would spend an extra second or two on Monroe.

Monroe struggled against the Bobcats (4/12). His post-ups saw him on the floor with one shooter on the floor. The Bobcats simply packed the paint against him Misses and turnovers on all but one possession in the post. I'm unsure as to why Frank wanted Monroe post ups when there was no one to help space the floor.

I could go on and on and on. Monroe is constantly facing multiple defenders, and this is partly due to his skill (again, he has sound footwork) and the nature of the rules today. Grantland has an excellent piece highlighting the the Tom Thibodeau inspired "2.9 defense" in which weak-side defenders will camp in the lane for exactly 2.9 seconds. This makes Monroe's job significantly more difficult, and this can change almost immediately next season with the right shooters around him.

[E-Z]

Great post, EZ, thanks for getting my wheels turning. There are a couple of related problems I see, though I agree with the overall premise that the easiest way for us to win more games would be to focus on rebounding and D.

To begin with, any plan that's about changing a team's identity needs to have some core players that fit that identity perfectly. Following your plan means we're no longer rebuilding and we're going for an identity right now, but I don't think we have the core for that yet.

Your offensive plan seems to rely on running every play on offense through Monroe, since nobody else would be a reliable shot creator. A team like SA has always had several very efficient creators (Tim, Tony, Manu), all three of whom can handle a higher usage rate than Monroe can at the moment. What happens when Monroe is out or when he's off? Who else can get good quality, high efficiency looks? Not BK, not M Barnes or M Webster, not Drummond, not Singler. Not Tony Allen, Corey Brewer, or Afflalo. Those guys either wait for the ball to come to them or they shoot long twos off the bounce. In any case they're not efficient creators. Seems to me like we'd need at least one more very good offensive player before it would make sense for our strategy to be "get as many shooters and perimeter defenders as possible."

You're correct about San Antonio. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli each have usage rates well above 20% when they're on the floor.

Detroit simply does not have enough basketballs to share with their players. Will Bynum had the highest usage percentage at 27% (same as Tim Duncan), followed by Monroe (24%), Knight (22%), Charlie (22%), and Rodney Stuckey (21%). Detroit could narrow that down to two or three players that don't all share the responsibility on offense.

Monroe would still get his touches in the post. Knight would earn more development in the P&R. Detroit could use another scorer, but there are successful teams that just have two ball dominant players. I think Knight and Monroe would compliment each other extremely well given the right pieces around them.

[ChipButty]

What makes a player "dominant" in the post? I believe Monroe is quite a force already on the low block. He has made gains since his rookie year, and shows extremely high potential with his footwork, smarts, and aggressiveness.

That's a lot of info I agree that Monroe is a solid post player, but I don't think he is a force on the low block. If anybody is going to be a force in the low block, i'd guess it's going to be Drummond. I don't pay for Synergy, but I don't see any evidence that they distinguish between low/mid/high post play. They appear to just lump it all together into "post-up".

Here are highlights from his 35 point game against Toronto.

The first play is about as close to the low block as he gets. Most of his plays come from the mid post or elbow and he's usually collecting the ball a couple of feet outside the paint. Dominant low post players establish position much closer to the basket than Monroe does.

Here are highlights from his game against the 76ers that you referenced.

The closest he gets to the low block is early on in the video (18s and 28s). Nice plays, but he's being guarded by guys like Young, Moultrie and Lavoy Allen. Not the bigger/longer guys he struggles against. Even in these highlights he still starts a lot of his plays from what I would consider mid post and high post positions.

In 2012 Monroe ranked 113 of all NBA players offensively. He also ranked 84th in scoring from the post. His offensive production took a nosedive this season, ranking 247 offensively, seeing decreased touches (35% to 28%) and a lower field goal percentage (43% to 41%). However, I don't believe this is his fault by any stretch.

Monroe is a good player. There is no reason to give him a free pass when he doesn't play well. He had some stretches of bad play, especially early in the season.

[url=http://www.82games.com/1213/1213DET2.HTM]82games.com shows that Detroit's best five man unit included Knight, Singler, Prince, Maxiell and Monroe. 2 shooters, one okay shooter, and a stretch four. They had a win percentage of 50% together (20-20).

I don't think anybody is arguing that it's good to have players that can't shoot. Drummond isn't a shooter so I am not sure how open the paint is going to be next year. I agree that makes it even more important to have players at the 1, 2 and 3 that can hit an open shot.

The fact that Monroe constantly faces collapsing defenses illustrates the only constant from last season up until now. He desperately needs shooters around him. The floor is poorly spaced nearly every play.

I am not convinced that defense played against Monroe is substantially different from what a guy like Duncan has faced throughout his career. Parker has never been a reliable threat from downtown.

[E-Z]

What makes a player "dominant" in the post? I believe Monroe is quite a force already on the low block. He has made gains since his rookie year, and shows extremely high potential with his footwork, smarts, and aggressiveness.

That's a lot of info I agree that Monroe is a solid post player, but I don't think he is a force on the low block. If anybody is going to be a force in the low block, i'd guess it's going to be Drummond. I don't pay for Synergy, but I don't see any evidence that they distinguish between low/mid/high post play. They appear to just lump it all together into "post-up".

Here are highlights from his 35 point game against Toronto.

The first play is about as close to the low block as he gets. Most of his plays come from the mid post or elbow and he's usually collecting the ball a couple of feet outside the paint. Dominant low post players establish position much closer to the basket than Monroe does.

Here are highlights from his game against the 76ers that you referenced.

The closest he gets to the low block is early on in the video (18s and 28s). Nice plays, but he's being guarded by guys like Young, Moultrie and Lavoy Allen. Not the bigger/longer guys he struggles against. Even in these highlights he still starts a lot of his plays from what I would consider mid post and high post positions.

In 2012 Monroe ranked 113 of all NBA players offensively. He also ranked 84th in scoring from the post. His offensive production took a nosedive this season, ranking 247 offensively, seeing decreased touches (35% to 28%) and a lower field goal percentage (43% to 41%). However, I don't believe this is his fault by any stretch.

Monroe is a good player. There is no reason to give him a free pass when he doesn't play well. He had some stretches of bad play, especially early in the season.

82games.com shows that Detroit's best five man unit included Knight, Singler, Prince, Maxiell and Monroe. 2 shooters, one okay shooter, and a stretch four. They had a win percentage of 50% together (20-20).

I don't think anybody is arguing that it's good to have players that can't shoot. Drummond isn't a shooter so I am not sure how open the paint is going to be next year. I agree that makes it even more important to have players at the 1, 2 and 3 that can hit an open shot.

The fact that Monroe constantly faces collapsing defenses illustrates the only constant from last season up until now. He desperately needs shooters around him. The floor is poorly spaced nearly every play.

I am not convinced that defense played against Monroe is substantially different from what a guy like Duncan has faced throughout his career. Parker has never been a reliable threat from downtown.

I'm unable to post images for five days after joining. However, Synergy isn't just stats lumped into one particular category.

The service literally numbers each type of play initiated.

You can watch each play individually, or the entire game.

Monroe was off in the post that night, though the floor was spaced relatively well. Detroit called his number 9 times in the post and he scored or drew a foul 4 times. Toronto doubled him once and only collapsed when he was point blank at the basket. His hook was blocked once.

Jonas Valanciunas' height disturbed Monroe, but he was still able to establish position. Monroe was pushed out to 15 feet from the basket before the entry pass. Monroe backed down and dropped right into the paint above the restricted area for a clean hook shot.

Valanciunas again pushes Monroe out of the paint, and he briefly faces up. Monroe backs down, spins and goes for a hook in one motion. Again he's right above the restricted area in the paint. Jonas gave up space, but still blocked the shot.

Monroe is able to back down into the paint from the post each time he catches the ball outside of it.

In fact, Monroe may actually prefer being that far away from the basket. He usually backs down weaker defenders, attempting to make reads, or he faces up and drives. His versatility is effective as he either scores or draws fouls. PPG and points per possession would be significantly higher if he shot a better clip from the line.

Drummond is currently a horrible post player. He shot 23% on 22 plays in the post.

However he appears to be a stud in the P&R for obvious reasons. He ranked in the top 25 players in the NBA at his 66% conversion rate here. He scores immensely well off of basket cuts also. He has the potential to be dominant in the paint in an entirely different way for Detroit.

[ChipButty]

I'm unable to post images for five days after joining. However, Synergy isn't just stats lumped into one particular category.

I looked at Synergy before I posted. It sounded to me like you were using Synergy's "Post-up" stats to label Monroe as a force in the low block. Synergy looks cool, but it looks to me like they label a shot attempt a "post-up" even if the player establishes possession in the mid-post 2 feet outside of the paint. That is fine, but it doesn't really directly correlate to what I consider the low block. The full highlights of the game show Monroe's full range as a scorer.

Jonas Valanciunas' height disturbed Monroe, but he was still able to establish position. Monroe was pushed out to 15 feet from the basket before the entry pass. Monroe backed down and dropped right into the paint above the restricted area for a clean hook shot.

Not a big deal, but a dominant low post player wouldn't let a rookie like Valanciunas push him out that far.

In fact, Monroe may actually prefer being that far away from the basket. He usually backs down weaker defenders, attempting to make reads, or he faces up and drives. His versatility is effective as he either scores or draws fouls. PPG and points per possession would be significantly higher if he shot a better clip from the line.

This is basically the point I have been trying to make. In my opinion he is a solid post player, but he isn't really dominant on the low block. His footwork, passing ability, and IQ are his strengths.

Drummond is currently a horrible post player. He shot 23% on 22 plays in the post.

However he appears to be a stud in the P&R for obvious reasons. He ranked in the top 25 players in the NBA at his 66% conversion rate here. He scores immensely well off of basket cuts also. He has the potential to be dominant in the paint in an entirely different way for Detroit.

We don't need stats to know that Drummond's post skills are non-existent and that he looks good in pick and roll. He does however have the raw physical attributes (aka potential) to be a dominant low post player. That is why he's hoping to work with Hakeem Olajuwon this summer. If Drummond can develop a go to post move and Monroe can get more consistent with his jumper, then the Pistons are going to be really good really quick.

[E-Z]

I'm unable to post images for five days after joining. However, Synergy isn't just stats lumped into one particular category.

I looked at Synergy before I posted. It sounded to me like you were using Synergy's "Post-up" stats to label Monroe as a force in the low block. Synergy looks cool, but it looks to me like they label a shot attempt a "post-up" even if the player establishes possession in the mid-post 2 feet outside of the paint. That is fine, but it doesn't really directly correlate to what I consider the low block. The full highlights of the game show Monroe's full range as a scorer.

Jonas Valanciunas' height disturbed Monroe, but he was still able to establish position. Monroe was pushed out to 15 feet from the basket before the entry pass. Monroe backed down and dropped right into the paint above the restricted area for a clean hook shot.

Not a big deal, but a dominant low post player wouldn't let a rookie like Valanciunas push him out that far.

In fact, Monroe may actually prefer being that far away from the basket. He usually backs down weaker defenders, attempting to make reads, or he faces up and drives. His versatility is effective as he either scores or draws fouls. PPG and points per possession would be significantly higher if he shot a better clip from the line.

This is basically the point I have been trying to make. In my opinion he is a solid post player, but he isn't really dominant on the low block. His footwork, passing ability, and IQ are his strengths.

Drummond is currently a horrible post player. He shot 23% on 22 plays in the post.

However he appears to be a stud in the P&R for obvious reasons. He ranked in the top 25 players in the NBA at his 66% conversion rate here. He scores immensely well off of basket cuts also. He has the potential to be dominant in the paint in an entirely different way for Detroit.

We don't need stats to know that Drummond's post skills are non-existent and that he looks good in pick and roll. He does however have the raw physical attributes (aka potential) to be a dominant low post player. That is why he's hoping to work with Hakeem Olajuwon this summer. If Drummond can develop a go to post move and Monroe can get more consistent with his jumper, then the Pistons are going to be really good really quick.

Any play that involves a player catching the ball on either the high or low block with their back to the basket is considered a post play. It's not about where someone starts, but where they finish. Monroe consistently gets into the paint. It's evident each time he drives or backs down. Either for a point blank finish or for a hook above the restricted area.

We have different opinions on what a force in the paint is. That's fine. One facet of his game does not change. His moves forces defenses to collapse on him.

Detroit needs to consolidate their strengths and this is definitely one of them.

Spread the floor and give him more space to work on the block. He preforms exceedingly well much more often when this is true.

Also I won't deny why you're saying about Drummond. However his development curve in this area is very steep and I don't see him making an immediate impact in the post next season. He can average 13 points a game simply from cuts and rolls to the basket (which I would love to see more of).

[HotelVitale]

Detroit simply does not have enough basketballs to share with their players. Will Bynum had the highest usage percentage at 27% (same as Tim Duncan), followed by Monroe (24%), Knight (22%), Charlie (22%), and Rodney Stuckey (21%). Detroit could narrow that down to two or three players that don't all share the responsibility on offense.
Monroe would still get his touches in the post. Knight would earn more development in the P&R. Detroit could use another scorer, but there are successful teams that just have two ball dominant players. I think Knight and Monroe would compliment each other extremely well given the right pieces around them.

You missed my point, EZ. All of the Pistons you listed aside from Monroe are below average to very bad possession-users. Parker, Duncan, and Ginobli are all really GOOD at getting their own shot or creating for others. Letting any of them initiate a play is a great bet-- letting Brandon Knight use a possession is a disastrous one. We don't need fewer people to use possessions, we need some one aside from Monroe who's not below average at initiating and using possessions.

In other words we need a few GOOD offensive players...and then we can think about surrounding them with better rebounding and athleticism. But wouldn't doing so now just make it so that Knight or Stuckey would have to use even more possessions, since we'd be playing some rebounder/athlete instead of CV or Bynum?

[E-Z]

Detroit simply does not have enough basketballs to share with their players. Will Bynum had the highest usage percentage at 27% (same as Tim Duncan), followed by Monroe (24%), Knight (22%), Charlie (22%), and Rodney Stuckey (21%). Detroit could narrow that down to two or three players that don't all share the responsibility on offense.
Monroe would still get his touches in the post. Knight would earn more development in the P&R. Detroit could use another scorer, but there are successful teams that just have two ball dominant players. I think Knight and Monroe would compliment each other extremely well given the right pieces around them.

You missed my point, EZ. All of the Pistons you listed aside from Monroe are below average to very bad possession-users. Parker, Duncan, and Ginobli are all really GOOD at getting their own shot or creating for others. Letting any of them initiate a play is a great bet-- letting Brandon Knight use a possession is a disastrous one. We don't need fewer people to use possessions, we need some one aside from Monroe who's not below average at initiating and using possessions.

In other words we need a few GOOD offensive players...and then we can think about surrounding them with better rebounding and athleticism. But wouldn't doing so now just make it so that Knight or Stuckey would have to use even more possessions, since we'd be playing some rebounder/athlete instead of CV or Bynum?

I can't disagree with your observation. It may be better for Detroit to grow their own talent versus free agency. I'm not against any trades that would bring in better scoring options either (unless they're slow).

My ideal offense for the Pistons would involve a lot of post ups, P&R, and dribble hand offs (flanked by shooters).

My primary concern is the fact that the Pistons have too many ball dominant players playing heavy minutes. The players hardly complimented each other well also. This stunted everyone offensively to a degree, Brandon Knight specifically.

The lane collapses on Knight in P&R situations when Stuckey is on the floor with him. If Stuckey was a deep ball threat, Knight's reads and decision making skills would be simplified immensely.

I still have a modicum of faith in Knight. He gets into the lane with lightning speed in the P&R. Also his quick shot is pretty good from deep. He definitely needs to improve his mid range shot and gain some confidence in his own ability to finish. I'm sure he watches tape and probably beats himself up about it.

Toney Allen is not a P&R player but a spot up shooter, so it wouldn't hurt for Detroit to look for another versatile point guard as well.

[HotelVitale]

I think my position is that we need some good young players before we can start going all in. Our lack of overall core talent is a pretty huge deal, definitely makes it hard to strategize where to go this offseason. If we go for the best possible players this offseason--J Smith or Igg or Eric Gordon--we're going to end up with a much better team but with mismatched parts or huge injury risks. We could well just be like this year's Bucks. If we sign some solid talent--guys like Tony Allen or Kevin Martin or JJ Redick--we'll end up a bit better but not good enough to be interesting. Or if we sign a few stopgaps like Nick Young or Matt Barnes, we'll be bad but will let our dudes develop to the max and preserve some cap space in case something better pops up. I'm obviously leaning toward the last, but I can't see the front office doing that, and I can't see myself caring too much about a team that had Nick Young as its 2nd or 3rd leading scorer.

PS: Tony Allen is an awful shooter. I'd guess he's under 30% from mid- and long-range.

[E-Z]

The verdict will be out on Mo Cheeks, but I'm pleased with the draft. Trade Stuckey for another athletic shooter, and I'll be very excited about next season.