BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani

[GONYK]

I’d rather be lying in wait with that expiring, picks and cash ready just in case. I think that gave us more flexibility and if we stayed patient we could have eventually gotten better pieces or better assets. Something always comes up around the deadline. I’m not a believer in what we are building here either with the style of team so that is a big part of it.

But have to agree with johnnywishbone once again....I hope it works out and I eat crow on this

We probably would have gotten Bargnani at the deadline

I mean really guys, this package couldn't get us picks in a draft where teams were done drafting seriously after 11 picks. It couldn't even get us a 2nd rounder.

What superstar was it supposed to deliver in February. What PF that defends, rebounds, and hits the 3 was going to be available? How many players like that even exist?

I understand where they're coming from. You never know who could become available. I just have a hard time believing a team wouldnt be able to get a better package than what we gave if they wanted to trade a disgruntled star. It is what it is though. Its done.

Oh, I totally get it. I don't begrudge people their hatred of Bargnani. It's not like I love the guy.

But the reality is not matching up with the rhetoric. We tried to move Camby and Novak during the draft, and got shut out. What player with a complete skillset was this package supposed to get after 6 more months of not playing and being generally useless?

As Hahn put it, draft picks are hard to lose because they are the "currency of hope".

[GONYK]

For some teams, the draft is a crapshoot. However, for other teams (Spurs come to mind as first, but GSW and Rockets are good drafting as well) it is a way to find young talent that can produce. I just looked back on the 2008 2nd round draft, and 6 of the 30 drafted in the 2nd round are solid-good starters in the league. That's 20% and that rate is only going up with all of the international talent being recognized now.

When I said competing with other teams I meant for undrafted guys. What if another team signs the undrafted guy you wanted first(Idk how this process works, just assuming)?

Bargs motivated? How much motivation does he need. He went through the worst stretch in his career, yet his team continues to start him, until he became injured. Hell, even when he got back from injury, the team still started him. How is that not motivation?

Bargs was so bad, and FO wanted him to start so badly, that one time the coach of the Raptors said he played Bargs in order to matchup with Luke Walton for rebounding. Think about that for a second.

Anyway, you guys are underrating draft picks. The chance to get a solid starter, for a bench player price is so crucial for building a team, especially in the new CBA. To compete, you need young guys that can be like that, and that is why I dislike how the Knicks threw in draft picks like that. And for the player they got? I think I already made my stance on him clear

So you want us to mourn the loss of a pick that has an 80% chance of being useless?

Well there were 2 picks in the 2nd round.

Then there's the 1st rounder, which (if we're looking at the 08 draft), has a 60% chance of being successful.

However, it's stupid to use percentages because some teams have better scouts than others, so some teams have more success in the 2nd round that teams that don't really scout/invest much time in that round.

Anyway, to compete in this new CBA you need to have those kind of cheap players that will produce much more than their contract would lead you to, and draft picks are the easiest way to get them. Undrafted guys are harder to obtain, and may sign/be signed for the best kind of deal(look at Copeland's).

Copeland is exactly why 2nd round picks aren't be all and end all. There are ways to still acquire cheap talent.

[JustaKnickFan]

The 2006 draft was an awful draft, one of the worst. So it's not that much of an accomplishment to be around that long.

This has literally nothing to do with a player's longevity
I meant compared to the members of the other draft. I thought you were making a point of how compared to the rest of the class, Bargs fared well which knows he's useful.

Anyway, in 2009 members of the FO wanted to get rid of Bargs, yet the GM, Colangelo didn't want to just yet.

Yeah he may be more productive than Novak (their PERs are incredibly close) which may even be a stretch at this point, but I seriously doubt he'll be more productive than one of the picks the Knicks gave up.

PER is not productivity. Of course Novak will be more efficient. He only shot like 5 times a game and only when he was wide open.
Well what stat would you like to use?

At this point, Bargs is a negative on the floor, along with Novak. He cannot rebound(worst rebounding 7fter in history), he cannot defend(starter of one of the worst defenses of all time), and he is losing his shooting abilities(40% fg 31% 3pt).

Bargs is a better rebounder, defender, ballhandler, passer than Novak. If you are disputing that, you have lost objectivity.

Sh*t, if Novak was an inch taller, he'd be the worst rebounding 7ftr in history
Actually, you'd be surprised at how Novak's bad defense can occasionally help the team because it causes players to iso against him and end up taking bad, contested long 2s. He may be bad laterally, but Novak has length and is focused enough to contest, AND HE FOLLOWS THE SCHEME. Bargs has shown to be hopeless on D. At least Novak follows the scheme of what Woodson says (he sometimes trails his man intentionally), which leads to forcing offensive players into a tough situation. Attack Chandler at the rim(tough floater/layup) or pause and have Novak back in position. He also slowly goes through picks , but tries to get back to his man quickly to contest if they're pulling up, which leads to a semi-contested jumper thanks to his length.
Tl;DR version: Novak is slow, but always in position and follows the scheme. Bargs has good post D, but is lost on help D. Since the Knicks always switch, the good post D attribute isn't as helpful. As for rebounding, Bargs is better, but he's 7ft tall. Bargs shouldn't be handling the ball much, and they both rarely get assists. so it's not much to be a better ballhandler/passer than Novak.

At least Novak was very reliable from 3.

No, he wasn't.
He shot around 43% from 3, that's reliable in the grand scheme of things. . Yeah he goes through stretches of being less affective, but then again, all shooters do that.

Answers in bold

[BOOMbip]

I'm off in my own little world doing whatever it is a BOOMbip does to keep himself a happy bipper and decide to check in on the forum to see what trade/FA news is brewing for the Knicks... low and behold I stumble upon a nearly 300 page thread about a trade for .... gasp... Barg! W!T!F! ....and with 1st rounders traded away... *grumble*

I aint got time for all this thread someone just give me the facts....

Camby, Novak, QRich (S&T), 2 2nd rounders, 1 1st rounder for Bargs. Chaos ensues.

That's about it.

Hmmmmm , well, I can see the talent/salary aspect of it but I'm not diggin' the picks part of it. Novak and Camby weren't difference makers at all last season and are owed quite a bit of change over the next 2-3 years. Barg played his best ball at the PF not when he played C so he could flourish next to Chandler.

I have never been impressed with his skill set or his effort even though his talent made him the #1 pick.... I will refrain from being to bent about this move but I'm not sold on it at all. If the Knicks sign Brand I think this deal will look better when you consider everything.

[Context]

I'm off in my own little world doing whatever it is a BOOMbip does to keep himself a happy bipper and decide to check in on the forum to see what trade/FA news is brewing for the Knicks... low and behold I stumble upon a nearly 300 page thread about a trade for .... gasp... Barg! W!T!F! ....and with 1st rounders traded away... *grumble*

I aint got time for all this thread someone just give me the facts....

Camby, Novak, QRich (S&T), 2 2nd rounders, 1 1st rounder for Bargs. Chaos ensues.

That's about it.

Hmmmmm , well, I can see the talent/salary aspect of it but I'm not diggin' the picks part of it. Novak and Camby weren't difference makers at all last season and are owed quite a bit of change over the next 2-3 years. Barg played his best ball at the PF not when he played C so he could flourish next to Chandler.

I have never been impressed with his skill set or his effort even though his talent made him the #1 pick.... I will refrain from being to bent about this move but I'm not sold on it at all. If the Knicks sign Brand I think this deal will look better when you consider everything.

As long as Woodson starts Bargs-Tyson -Melo and Tyson plays at the Dpoy level we will be dynamic...

[Deeeez Knicks]

I’d rather be lying in wait with that expiring, picks and cash ready just in case. I think that gave us more flexibility and if we stayed patient we could have eventually gotten better pieces or better assets. Something always comes up around the deadline. I’m not a believer in what we are building here either with the style of team so that is a big part of it.

But have to agree with johnnywishbone once again....I hope it works out and I eat crow on this

We probably would have gotten Bargnani at the deadline

I mean really guys, this package couldn't get us picks in a draft where teams were done drafting seriously after 11 picks. It couldn't even get us a 2nd rounder.

What superstar was it supposed to deliver in February. What PF that defends, rebounds, and hits the 3 was going to be available? How many players like that even exist?

We couldn’t get a pick because we used up all of our cash last year for Camby very early in free agency. And supposedly we are sending cash to Toronto in this deal. So part of our package actually could have gotten a pick in this year’ draft.

Minnesota traded Malcolm Lee and the draft rights to André Roberson (the 26th player selected in the 2013 NBA Draft) to Golden State for a 2014 second round pick and cash.

All I want from my PF is a guy who can rebound and protect the paint because that is what wins in the playoffs. Miami, the Spurs, the Pacers, Memphis…they all protect the paint. We have one guy on the team that can do that and its clearly not enough. It’s a huge myth that we need PFs to stand at the 3 point line and chuck 3’s. That’s not NBA playoff basketball. At some point, you have to play big. Miami is the only team able to get away with it because Lebron protects the paint as well as most PFs and even they start most of there games big. Some of his biggest plays were monster blocks. Even Wade will step up, Battier and Chalmers will take charges, Haslem, Bird man and even Bosh…

We already have one big man who’s a liability. Its just a waste of time to add another.

And no, there's probably no trade that we could have made that makes us a contender. But thats exactly why i'd rather have those picks and cash. Whether its our pick, our Denvers pick, its still a first rounder. Maybe we would have needed that pick or our 2017 pick to trade in another deal. Right now we can't even trade a pick until 2018.

I'd just rather have those picks and cash and maybe take a 1 in 100 shot at someone rather then a player who's flaws will get you eliminated in the playoffs.

[GONYK]

The 2006 draft was an awful draft, one of the worst. So it's not that much of an accomplishment to be around that long.

This has literally nothing to do with a player's longevity
I meant compared to the members of the other draft. I thought you were making a point of how compared to the rest of the class, Bargs fared well which knows he's useful.

Anyway, in 2009 members of the FO wanted to get rid of Bargs, yet the GM, Colangelo didn't want to just yet.

Yeah he may be more productive than Novak (their PERs are incredibly close) which may even be a stretch at this point, but I seriously doubt he'll be more productive than one of the picks the Knicks gave up.

PER is not productivity. Of course Novak will be more efficient. He only shot like 5 times a game and only when he was wide open.
Well what stat would you like to use?

At this point, Bargs is a negative on the floor, along with Novak. He cannot rebound(worst rebounding 7fter in history), he cannot defend(starter of one of the worst defenses of all time), and he is losing his shooting abilities(40% fg 31% 3pt).

Bargs is a better rebounder, defender, ballhandler, passer than Novak. If you are disputing that, you have lost objectivity.

Sh*t, if Novak was an inch taller, he'd be the worst rebounding 7ftr in history
Actually, you'd be surprised at how Novak's bad defense can occasionally help the team because it causes players to iso against him and end up taking bad, contested long 2s. He may be bad laterally, but Novak has length and is focused enough to contest, AND HE FOLLOWS THE SCHEME. Bargs has shown to be hopeless on D. At least Novak follows the scheme of what Woodson says (he sometimes trails his man intentionally), which leads to forcing offensive players into a tough situation. Attack Chandler at the rim(tough floater/layup) or pause and have Novak back in position. He also slowly goes through picks , but tries to get back to his man quickly to contest if they're pulling up, which leads to a semi-contested jumper thanks to his length.
Tl;DR version: Novak is slow, but always in position and follows the scheme. Bargs has good post D, but is lost on help D. Since the Knicks always switch, the good post D attribute isn't as helpful. As for rebounding, Bargs is better, but he's 7ft tall. Bargs shouldn't be handling the ball much, and they both rarely get assists. so it's not much to be a better ballhandler/passer than Novak.

At least Novak was very reliable from 3.

No, he wasn't.
He shot around 43% from 3, that's reliable in the grand scheme of things. . Yeah he goes through stretches of being less affective, but then again, all shooters do that.

Answers in bold

Bargs is capable of providing every single "benefit" Novak does on that end, as well as some actual defense. Bargs' issues are with focus. He is not as limited physically as Novak is, and he has even more length.

There really is no disputing that Bargs is a better ballhandler and passer than Novak.

As far as Novak's shooting, he was useless against any team that was capable of making the playoffs. He simply was too easy to defend and a complete liability on the other end.

[Context]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

[GONYK]

I’d rather be lying in wait with that expiring, picks and cash ready just in case. I think that gave us more flexibility and if we stayed patient we could have eventually gotten better pieces or better assets. Something always comes up around the deadline. I’m not a believer in what we are building here either with the style of team so that is a big part of it.

But have to agree with johnnywishbone once again....I hope it works out and I eat crow on this

We probably would have gotten Bargnani at the deadline

I mean really guys, this package couldn't get us picks in a draft where teams were done drafting seriously after 11 picks. It couldn't even get us a 2nd rounder.

What superstar was it supposed to deliver in February. What PF that defends, rebounds, and hits the 3 was going to be available? How many players like that even exist?

We couldn’t get a pick because we used up all of our cash last year for Camby very early in free agency. And supposedly we are sending cash to Toronto in this deal. So part of our package actually could have gotten a pick in this year’ draft.

Minnesota traded Malcolm Lee and the draft rights to André Roberson (the 26th player selected in the 2013 NBA Draft) to Golden State for a 2014 second round pick and cash.

All I want from my PF is a guy who can rebound and protect the paint because that is what wins in the playoffs. Miami, the Spurs, the Pacers, Memphis…they all protect the paint. We have one guy on the team that can do that and its clearly not enough. It’s a huge myth that we need PFs to stand at the 3 point line and chuck 3’s. That’s not NBA playoff basketball. At some point, you have to play big. Miami is the only team able to get away with it because Lebron protects the paint as well as most PFs and even they start most of there games big. Some of his biggest plays were monster blocks. Even Wade will step up, Battier and Chalmers will take charges, Haslem, Bird man and even Bosh…

We already have one big man who’s a liability. Its just a waste of time to add another.

And no, there's probably no trade that we could have made that makes us a contender. But thats exactly why i'd rather have those picks and cash. Whether its our pick, our Denvers pick, its still a first rounder. Maybe we would have needed that pick or our 2017 pick to trade in another deal. Right now we can't even trade a pick until 2018.

I'd just rather have those picks and cash and maybe take a 1 in 100 shot at someone rather then a player who's flaws will get you eliminated in the playoffs.

It seems you have a problem with the team's current philosophy as a whole, which I won't fight you on. That is totally your prerogative.

The drafting of Hardaway Jr. sent the message loud and clear the small ball is the law of the land for the time being. If Bargs returns to even close to form, he fits perfectly within the scheme that Woody so clearly favors.

Whether you or I agree with that scheme is irrelevant. It's happening. I can't really scream in the rain over something I can't control.

As Abe Lincoln once said, "whatever you are, be a good one". If the Knicks are committed to this type of offense, then I have no problem them making moves to get the most out of it.

[BOOMbip]

As long as we don't have to endure a Barg-Amar'e pairing because that would be the worst defending-rebounding we have seen since Amar'e-Novak...... which was so bad it made my eyes bleed.

[GONYK]

As long as we don't have to endure a Barg-Amar'e pairing because that would be the worst defending-rebounding we have seen since Amar'e-Novak...... which was so bad it made my eyes bleed.

I think the Knicks agree, which is why you see us immediately turn our sights to Elton Brand

[johnnywishbone]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

This is Mike Woodson explaining to Tyson Chandler that he has to play with Bargnani.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkue1ns4XvU[/youtube]

[eviL]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

I think the problem is that Tyson doesn't want to have 20 rebound games unless his teammates are looking for him to get 20 points as well

[ORANGEandBLUE]

All I want from my PF is a guy who can rebound and protect the paint because that is what wins in the playoffs. Miami, the Spurs, the Pacers, Memphis…they all protect the paint. We have one guy on the team that can do that and its clearly not enough. It’s a huge myth that we need PFs to stand at the 3 point line and chuck 3’s. That’s not NBA playoff basketball. At some point, you have to play big. Miami is the only team able to get away with it because Lebron protects the paint as well as most PFs and even they start most of there games big. Some of his biggest plays were monster blocks. Even Wade will step up, Battier and Chalmers will take charges, Haslem, Bird man and even Bosh…

We already have one big man who’s a liability. Its just a waste of time to add another.

Melo needs to be the 2nd.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

The Pacers run a traditional lineup and still wiped the floor against our small ball team.

[Context]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

I think the problem is that Tyson doesn't want to have 20 rebound games unless his teammates are looking for him to get 20 points as well

Well I can't comment on that, I have no idea what Tyson's thinking... All I know is It doesn't get any better than Bargs- Tyson- Melo IF guys play to their strengths...

[GONYK]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

The Pacers run a traditional lineup and still wiped the floor against our small ball team.

They beat our traditional lineup even worse

[johnnywishbone]

Tyson - remember how you had such an easy time guarding Roy HIbbert? Yeah well we figured you could cover David West at the same time. OK? On three - go Knicks.

[Thugger HBC]

Some of you need to get with the times... Basketball has CHANGED. This Knick team got the best 27 year old stretch 4 with the highest ceiling that was available. Tyson can now have more 20 rebound games...it's about balance...

I think the problem is that Tyson doesn't want to have 20 rebound games unless his teammates are looking for him to get 20 points as well

Yep, and it's to be expected.

Woodson told him to train with dream and he did so when Dream came up here to NY.

He learned the moves, but was rarely very involved to showcase them.

We've seen a spin move from him this past season and he has hit jumpers too.

If he has to be the only defender in the frontcourt, then he should get a few known touches....not the unexpected ones.

[Deeeez Knicks]

We probably would have gotten Bargnani at the deadline

I mean really guys, this package couldn't get us picks in a draft where teams were done drafting seriously after 11 picks. It couldn't even get us a 2nd rounder.

What superstar was it supposed to deliver in February. What PF that defends, rebounds, and hits the 3 was going to be available? How many players like that even exist?

We couldn’t get a pick because we used up all of our cash last year for Camby very early in free agency. And supposedly we are sending cash to Toronto in this deal. So part of our package actually could have gotten a pick in this year’ draft.

Minnesota traded Malcolm Lee and the draft rights to André Roberson (the 26th player selected in the 2013 NBA Draft) to Golden State for a 2014 second round pick and cash.

All I want from my PF is a guy who can rebound and protect the paint because that is what wins in the playoffs. Miami, the Spurs, the Pacers, Memphis…they all protect the paint. We have one guy on the team that can do that and its clearly not enough. It’s a huge myth that we need PFs to stand at the 3 point line and chuck 3’s. That’s not NBA playoff basketball. At some point, you have to play big. Miami is the only team able to get away with it because Lebron protects the paint as well as most PFs and even they start most of there games big. Some of his biggest plays were monster blocks. Even Wade will step up, Battier and Chalmers will take charges, Haslem, Bird man and even Bosh…

We already have one big man who’s a liability. Its just a waste of time to add another.

And no, there's probably no trade that we could have made that makes us a contender. But thats exactly why i'd rather have those picks and cash. Whether its our pick, our Denvers pick, its still a first rounder. Maybe we would have needed that pick or our 2017 pick to trade in another deal. Right now we can't even trade a pick until 2018.

I'd just rather have those picks and cash and maybe take a 1 in 100 shot at someone rather then a player who's flaws will get you eliminated in the playoffs.

It seems you have a problem with the team's current philosophy as a whole, which I won't fight you on. That is totally your prerogative.

The drafting of Hardaway Jr. sent the message loud and clear the small ball is the law of the land for the time being. If Bargs returns to even close to form, he fits perfectly within the scheme that Woody so clearly favors.

Whether you or I agree with that scheme is irrelevant. It's happening. I can't really scream in the rain over something I can't control.

As Abe Lincoln once said, "whatever you are, be a good one". If the Knicks are committed to this type of offense, then I have no problem them making moves to get the most out of it.

Very true. Can't argue with Abe.