Official Speculation Thread (Pt.LIX Offseason Edition)

[flying_mollusk]

The Hennigan doubters are amazing. Really? Nobody can doubt that we ARE in an awesome position going forward. And not any GM/peer would do this. As great as Presti is, he got **** in that Harden deal.

Exactly. This whole cap space thing that Neon keeps talking about is rubbish (I relish any opportunity to use that word).

Guess how much money we will have committed the first summer than any of Hark, Harris, Vuc, Nicholson, O'Quinn, or Oladipo are able to hit FA?

0.0 Million Dollars.

I think we will be OK.

Yep. I think he is misunderstanding our cap situation. Harkless and Vucevic will be eligible for extensions after the 2014 offseason. So if we play the 2014 free agent market, we have the cap space to do so,regardless of Harrington/Afflalo/Nelson deals.

Plus I think people should realize cap space is of limited value to us. I dont see us signing a megastar in 2014, ie James/Bryant/Anthony. We are going to be a young developing team for a few years.

[flying_mollusk]

The problem is : Hennigan has given hope to fans, and fans remained patient. Now they want more than hope. People want to see more concrete steps about being a contender in 2015.

I compare our rebuild to what we did when we traded Tmac. We already had the #1 pick and Tmac. We should have been patient, traded Tmac for picks, and sucked for a few more years. We could have drafted Paul or D. Will in 2005. Instead we took back Francis and Mobley, ended up mediocre, and never could add that second star to Dwight.

[rcklsscognition]

I don't have blind faith in Henny like a lot of people here do. I like to at least harbor some doubt and use it to research things and form my own opinions on things that happen to the Magic. I'm not too concerned this way or that way with what he's done so far. We are the worst team in the league. I can't say we won the Dwight trade because a) we are the worst team in the league and b) it got us #2 pick in a weak draft. Maybe 3 years from now, after we draft a stud in 2014, some guys make some improvements, and we are in the ECF again, I'll say we won.

The one little thing that is starting to worry me is Henny's adoration for hard workers and tendency to take a hard worker over a guy with more natural abilities. It seems that he tends to make the safe pick. The positives or negatives from this methodology haven't surfaced yet. I worry that if you continue taking hard workers with lower ceilings you might never accumulate enough pure talent to win anything important. If we're going to win a championship, we're going to need a hard worker with pure out of this world skills. I don't see Henny taking a move like that in free agency, if there are ever going to be players like that on the market, so I only hope we have the opportunity to draft someone that is a hard worker and has pure skills. It scares me that given a situation where you have a hard worker with potential to be a starter or a player with potential to be a superstar with questionable work ethic, you choose the hard worker everytime, and end up with a team of hardworking guys that just aren't that amazing. Yes, it's nice because you rarely bust, but you also really never win it big.

I don't even really feel comfortable labeling Henny as that type of guy though, he's only had so many transactions so far, but I'll say it's just starting to worry me a bit.

[KillMonger]

Still salty about picking victor over Mclemore huh? Dude we're not the only team that passed him up. The only other guy that might fit the description of henny picking a hard worker over someone naturally talented is maybe Nicholson. Even then it's a stretch because he's so naturally gifted so rcklsscognition what are you getting at here? You might be reaching a bit with the whole hard worker over talent argument

Sent from my HTC One using my fingers

[SOUL]

oladipo is the only one you can say that out of

vuc, harkless, tobias were all risks that have paid off so far

[SOUL]

ryno for ayon was a failure, but even so we gave away a good player to suck. unless we had a good young prospect coming back, i rather have nobody than a ball-needing vet

[Catledge]

The Hennigan doubters are amazing. Really? Nobody can doubt that we ARE in an awesome position going forward. And not any GM/peer would do this. As great as Presti is, he got **** in that Harden deal.

Exactly. This whole cap space thing that Neon keeps talking about is rubbish (I relish any opportunity to use that word).

Guess how much money we will have committed the first summer than any of Hark, Harris, Vuc, Nicholson, O'Quinn, or Oladipo are able to hit FA?

0.0 Million Dollars.

I think we will be OK.

Nice. I feel the same way about "bullocks."

[flying_mollusk]

I don't have blind faith in Henny like a lot of people here do. I like to at least harbor some doubt and use it to research things and form my own opinions on things that happen to the Magic. I'm not too concerned this way or that way with what he's done so far. We are the worst team in the league. I can't say we won the Dwight trade because a) we are the worst team in the league and b) it got us #2 pick in a weak draft. Maybe 3 years from now, after we draft a stud in 2014, some guys make some improvements, and we are in the ECF again, I'll say we won.

The one little thing that is starting to worry me is Henny's adoration for hard workers and tendency to take a hard worker over a guy with more natural abilities. It seems that he tends to make the safe pick. The positives or negatives from this methodology haven't surfaced yet. I worry that if you continue taking hard workers with lower ceilings you might never accumulate enough pure talent to win anything important. If we're going to win a championship, we're going to need a hard worker with pure out of this world skills. I don't see Henny taking a move like that in free agency, if there are ever going to be players like that on the market, so I only hope we have the opportunity to draft someone that is a hard worker and has pure skills. It scares me that given a situation where you have a hard worker with potential to be a starter or a player with potential to be a superstar with questionable work ethic, you choose the hard worker everytime, and end up with a team of hardworking guys that just aren't that amazing. Yes, it's nice because you rarely bust, but you also really never win it big.

I don't even really feel comfortable labeling Henny as that type of guy though, he's only had so many transactions so far, but I'll say it's just starting to worry me a bit.

"Ceiling" is a bad philosophy IMO. Why does Ben McClemore have a higher ceiling than Oladipo? Youre kinda of putting the cart before the horse if you say McClemore has the ceiling of a superstar, and Oladipo only a starter.

How do you measure a guys ceiling other than to measure his a)physical capabilities (athleticism) along with b)his desire to work? In the NBA, athleticism and hard work trump all. Guys like Jimmer Frederrte and Adam Morrison cant make it because they arent athletic. Guys like Kwame Brown and Darko cant make it because they dont work hard. Kevin Garnett is great because he is extremely athletic, and spent **** ton of time in the gym developing his game. Same with Kobe.

If you have a read flag on either athleticm or work ethic, youre taking an irrational risk if you have an equally athletic player who works hard. Thats why I think Oladipo was taken.

[LBPTarHeel27]

I don't have blind faith in Henny like a lot of people here do. I like to at least harbor some doubt and use it to research things and form my own opinions on things that happen to the Magic.

You make it seem like having faith in Hennigan and having an opinion have to be separate. I too like to do my research and look over the fine details. Looking at all of these details from each move he has made so far...I love what I see. The guy isn't perfect, but he has certainly made the right moves at pretty much every crossroad, so far.

I'm not too concerned this way or that way with what he's done so far. We are the worst team in the league. I can't say we won the Dwight trade because a) we are the worst team in the league and b) it got us #2 pick in a weak draft. Maybe 3 years from now, after we draft a stud in 2014, some guys make some improvements, and we are in the ECF again, I'll say we won.

There is a big difference between being the team that came out with the best end of a trade and winning games. Especially when you are talking about a team unloaded an unhappy superstar for young players and picks. I understand that some fans are against the idea of having down seasons to rebuild...but that is the right way to do it. That is why we didn't want Bynum. Forget his injuries...if we had taken him, he would certainly win us some games. However, we would never be anything more than mediocre and worse than we ever were with Dwight. Our record was an outside detail that was caused by the trade. It shouldn't be factored in to the trade itself. The trade itself...

LA: Nothing to show for it, Dwight & Earl Clark gone...along with the picks they traded.
Philly: Bynum is gone, Richardson is sticking around but not helping anything, and they lost a pick and great young talent
Denver: Iguodala is gone and they also traded away a pick
Orlando: Still own 3 future 1sts, 1 future 2nd, Aaron Afflalo, Nik Vucevic, Moe Harkless, and Al Harrington

How can you possibly say that this deal did not work out in our favor...far above any other team. Even if we didn't win, you have to say that those three teams all lost majorly.

The one little thing that is starting to worry me is Henny's adoration for hard workers and tendency to take a hard worker over a guy with more natural abilities. It seems that he tends to make the safe pick. The positives or negatives from this methodology haven't surfaced yet. I worry that if you continue taking hard workers with lower ceilings you might never accumulate enough pure talent to win anything important. If we're going to win a championship, we're going to need a hard worker with pure out of this world skills. I don't see Henny taking a move like that in free agency, if there are ever going to be players like that on the market, so I only hope we have the opportunity to draft someone that is a hard worker and has pure skills. It scares me that given a situation where you have a hard worker with potential to be a starter or a player with potential to be a superstar with questionable work ethic, you choose the hard worker everytime, and end up with a team of hardworking guys that just aren't that amazing. Yes, it's nice because you rarely bust, but you also really never win it big.

That is how you build a franchise from the ground up. Going in to last season we had a new GM, a new Head Coach, and a completely new roster. If you go with the purely talented guys, you end up like Sacramento. A lot of young talent that can't get it together. Instead, we are building a culture of hard work and intangibles.

You see Oladipo as a safe pick. For quite a while now, I saw him as simply the BEST pick. It had nothing to do with safety. At this point, which ever way you look at it...it is an opinion. However, don't you think that you should trust the opinion of guys hired to run an NBA franchise and draft players? I highly doubt they took Oladipo just because he was a safe pick. I am sure they thought he was the BEST pick, as well.

You make it seem like that if a guy was on the board with crazy skills, who was far above the other talents, that Henny would opt for the next guy with great work ethic. We passed on McLemore & Noel for real reasons. I don't know what they are...but several other teams also felt the same way. Everyone was in agreement that there wasn't 1 prospect head and shoulders above another. That is why Bennett went #1. For me...if you show me two players that are interchangeable in a draft slot...I am going to take the guy with work ethic and intangibles over the raw talent every day. That isn't safe...it is smart.

[Nyce_1]

I don't have blind faith in Henny like a lot of people here do. I like to at least harbor some doubt and use it to research things and form my own opinions on things that happen to the Magic. I'm not too concerned this way or that way with what he's done so far. We are the worst team in the league. I can't say we won the Dwight trade because a) we are the worst team in the league and b) it got us #2 pick in a weak draft. Maybe 3 years from now, after we draft a stud in 2014, some guys make some improvements, and we are in the ECF again, I'll say we won.

The one little thing that is starting to worry me is Henny's adoration for hard workers and tendency to take a hard worker over a guy with more natural abilities. It seems that he tends to make the safe pick. The positives or negatives from this methodology haven't surfaced yet. I worry that if you continue taking hard workers with lower ceilings you might never accumulate enough pure talent to win anything important. If we're going to win a championship, we're going to need a hard worker with pure out of this world skills. I don't see Henny taking a move like that in free agency, if there are ever going to be players like that on the market, so I only hope we have the opportunity to draft someone that is a hard worker and has pure skills. It scares me that given a situation where you have a hard worker with potential to be a starter or a player with potential to be a superstar with questionable work ethic, you choose the hard worker everytime, and end up with a team of hardworking guys that just aren't that amazing. Yes, it's nice because you rarely bust, but you also really never win it big.

I don't even really feel comfortable labeling Henny as that type of guy though, he's only had so many transactions so far, but I'll say it's just starting to worry me a bit.

Man, I see what you're saying but this is just year 1 in our rebuild process. What happens in the first stage of any building process? You have to make sure the foundation is rock solid to support the rest of the building. That foundation of hard work, team before me, winning culture, etc. needs to be well established so Henny can take risks on talented players and feel comfortable in knowing that the player will be held accountable by his teammates and won't disrupt what's in place.

The Spurs are our blueprint and because of the strong culture they have in place, they can NOW comfortably go after anyone in the league and believe said player will buy into their ways.

[Nyce_1]

I don't have blind faith in Henny like a lot of people here do. I like to at least harbor some doubt and use it to research things and form my own opinions on things that happen to the Magic.

You make it seem like having faith in Hennigan and having an opinion have to be separate. I too like to do my research and look over the fine details. Looking at all of these details from each move he has made so far...I love what I see. The guy isn't perfect, but he has certainly made the right moves at pretty much every crossroad, so far.

I'm not too concerned this way or that way with what he's done so far. We are the worst team in the league. I can't say we won the Dwight trade because a) we are the worst team in the league and b) it got us #2 pick in a weak draft. Maybe 3 years from now, after we draft a stud in 2014, some guys make some improvements, and we are in the ECF again, I'll say we won.

There is a big difference between being the team that came out with the best end of a trade and winning games. Especially when you are talking about a team unloaded an unhappy superstar for young players and picks. I understand that some fans are against the idea of having down seasons to rebuild...but that is the right way to do it. That is why we didn't want Bynum. Forget his injuries...if we had taken him, he would certainly win us some games. However, we would never be anything more than mediocre and worse than we ever were with Dwight. Our record was an outside detail that was caused by the trade. It shouldn't be factored in to the trade itself. The trade itself...

LA: Nothing to show for it, Dwight & Earl Clark gone...along with the picks they traded.
Philly: Bynum is gone, Richardson is sticking around but not helping anything, and they lost a pick and great young talent
Denver: Iguodala is gone and they also traded away a pick
Orlando: Still own 3 future 1sts, 1 future 2nd, Aaron Afflalo, Nik Vucevic, Moe Harkless, and Al Harrington

How can you possibly say that this deal did not work out in our favor...far above any other team. Even if we didn't win, you have to say that those three teams all lost majorly.

The one little thing that is starting to worry me is Henny's adoration for hard workers and tendency to take a hard worker over a guy with more natural abilities. It seems that he tends to make the safe pick. The positives or negatives from this methodology haven't surfaced yet. I worry that if you continue taking hard workers with lower ceilings you might never accumulate enough pure talent to win anything important. If we're going to win a championship, we're going to need a hard worker with pure out of this world skills. I don't see Henny taking a move like that in free agency, if there are ever going to be players like that on the market, so I only hope we have the opportunity to draft someone that is a hard worker and has pure skills. It scares me that given a situation where you have a hard worker with potential to be a starter or a player with potential to be a superstar with questionable work ethic, you choose the hard worker everytime, and end up with a team of hardworking guys that just aren't that amazing. Yes, it's nice because you rarely bust, but you also really never win it big.

That is how you build a franchise from the ground up. Going in to last season we had a new GM, a new Head Coach, and a completely new roster. If you go with the purely talented guys, you end up like Sacramento. A lot of young talent that can't get it together. Instead, we are building a culture of hard work and intangibles.

You see Oladipo as a safe pick. For quite a while now, I saw him as simply the BEST pick. It had nothing to do with safety. At this point, which ever way you look at it...it is an opinion. However, don't you think that you should trust the opinion of guys hired to run an NBA franchise and draft players? I highly doubt they took Oladipo just because he was a safe pick. I am sure they thought he was the BEST pick, as well.

You make it seem like that if a guy was on the board with crazy skills, who was far above the other talents, that Henny would opt for the next guy with great work ethic. We passed on McLemore & Noel for real reasons. I don't know what they are...but several other teams also felt the same way. Everyone was in agreement that there wasn't 1 prospect head and shoulders above another. That is why Bennett went #1. For me...if you show me two players that are interchangeable in a draft slot...I am going to take the guy with work ethic and intangibles over the raw talent every day. That isn't safe...it is smart.

Great post!

[PeePee la Fritz]

ryno for ayon was a failure, but even so we gave away a good player to suck. unless we had a good young prospect coming back, i rather have nobody than a ball-needing vet

How have people forgotten that Ryno was a FA. The dude signed a god awful offer sheet and we were not matching. We got Ayon and a small tpe for someone who was leaving anyway. Wtf people

[SOUL]

oh yeah. that's still my point though when people say it was a bad trade. i didn't mind it at all

[LBPTarHeel27]

ryno for ayon was a failure, but even so we gave away a good player to suck. unless we had a good young prospect coming back, i rather have nobody than a ball-needing vet

How have people forgotten that Ryno was a FA. The dude signed a god awful offer sheet and we were not matching. We got Ayon and a small tpe for someone who was leaving anyway. Wtf people

While I agree that what we ended up getting for him was the best we could do via S&T...I was pulling for us to hold on to him. It seemed like a bad deal at the time. A lot of people thought that Ryan Anderson was a product of playing next to Dwight Howard.

However, look at some of the deals that are being handed out to PF's & C's. Ryan Anderson was/is a young talent that did more than just make 3's. He is a tenacious offensive rebounder as well. That is something that is hard to find.

Now, you look at Ryan Anderson's deal and he is currently making a little over 8 per. His contract expires after the 15/16 season. Even if we had kept him, he would have come off the books in time to use that money on our young guys. If we have Ryan Anderson on his current deal, there is no doubt that he could be traded for more than Ayon & a TPE.

I understand why Henny made the move...but this is one that I actually do disagree with and have since day 1.

[magicman112]

oh yeah. that's still my point though when people say it was a bad trade. i didn't mind it at all

And, Ayon helped us get Tobes too.

[LBPTarHeel27]

oh yeah. that's still my point though when people say it was a bad trade. i didn't mind it at all

And, Ayon helped us get Tobes too.

Ayon was actually thought fairly highly of when we got him. He had a solid end to the prior season and looked like he was going to be a solid big man in the league. I was much higher on him than I was on Vucevic.

[magicman112]

oh yeah. that's still my point though when people say it was a bad trade. i didn't mind it at all

And, Ayon helped us get Tobes too.

Ayon was actually thought fairly highly of when we got him. He had a solid end to the prior season and looked like he was going to be a solid big man in the league. I was much higher on him than I was on Vucevic.

Yea he was, I remember the New Orleans fans were sorry to see him go and I liked the video I saw on him. I don't know if he just didn't get the system here or what happened but I'm glad he was able to help us get such a hidden gem in Tobes...

[Mannchild]

Clippers just missed out on Landry... Maybe they would accept a Big Baby for Willie Green swap. Would save us money and give them a back up big.

[rcklsscognition]

We are now in year 2 of the rebuild. I think we have a foundation of hard workers already. We have a good culture. At some point you begin taking risks and hope the guys get into the culture and take on the work ethic of the core. It sounds like you all for the most part are on board with that. Ideally you get guys that are both extremely physically talented and also hardworkers. But that's not always what's on the market. A lot of times you have hard workers that are just role players. They are important. But you don't need role players if you don't have pure talent on the roster.

Maybe Henny didn't feel comfortable with our culture yet, and wanted to take another safe step before making a bigger leap? Maybe he didn't even see it that way, maybe to him, Oladipo was a big leap and he thinks he's the next Westbrook. Obviously they thought Oladipo was the BEST pick, but that's based on their methods. Maybe he didn't see talent in McLemore or Noel. Obviously they are GMs for a reason, I am sitting on a computer. I am not a GM, but I just don't see the point in saying, Henny picked him, he must be the best. The Cavs didn't pick him. The odds are Oladipo will not be the best pick in the draft. He certainly could be. But just because one GM picked him, or 6 GMs didn't pick another guy, doesn't make them the best or 2nd best, or worst or whatever.

I don't see anything wrong with supporting his choices, doing that is just as valid as not agreeing with them. Just pick your points and support it with conversations longer than, in Henny I trust. I just don't make a big deal out of being right or wrong on stuff like this. I'm not going to crucify Henny if Oladipo is a bust, I'm also not going to give a crap if McLemore of Noel busts. It's just an opinion, and the fun of it, is talking about it and debating things, not saying someone is right or wrong.

On Ryno, the issue is whether or not Henny explored pre trade deadline deals for him. Can't say if he did or not.

[PeePee la Fritz]

Per Woj

@WojYahooNBA: Carl Landry's deal with the Kings will be four years, $26 million, league source tells Y!

Another team that won't be as bad as previously expected