WT- Nate unlikely to be back (WAIT! + instagram pic pg 81!)

[TylerB]

I'm glad you brought up intangibles. The funny thing about them is that they only seem to apply to bad basketball players. It's like they are invisible traits assigned to him so that people can convince themselves of his importance. The interesting things about these intangibles though are that they are never applied to Nate Robinson. Kirk is often characterized as smart (another invisible trait typically assigned to players that aren't very good) and hard-working yet Robinson's energy, courage, and heart are never brought into the equation.

Uh the real problem is when Robinson has one big game you completely ignore the 5 bad games hes has. Like I said its not that hes bad on defense, hes like the worst defensive player in the league. hes 5'9! He can score himself but struggles to execute in pick and roll situations badly. I mean hes not even capable of making the pass to an open teammate when he gets doubled most the time.

Yes he can score the ball but whats his overall contribution. Hinrich can defend and hit open 3s. What else do you need?

Then how many good games did Kirk have? On most nights he couldn't be depended on to do anything but bring the ball up the court.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1981/kirk-hinrich

He was atrocious all year and except for a small string of games in the late season he was our most inconsistent player all year. Add in his injuries, and I fail to see this superior player.

Hinrich helped the team on defense and could run the pick and roll. Robinson could score but ball movement suffered and the offense bogged down so if he wasn't scoring it wasn't just his offense that suffered.

And then there is the issue of him being the worst defensive player in the league even though he tries.

[Red8911]

But it was reported that the Bulls already offered nate the vet min. He's just holding out for more. He could still be back if no team blows him away.

Im getting the sense that we want Teague to develop, and playing Nate and Kirk ahead of him and relegating him to the 4th PG doesn't do that.

Its a hunch on my end, nothing concrete, but i see that as a possibility.

Whilst i would understand that move and have faith in Thibs and the FO in the talent they select in the draft, if Nate is willing to resign for the vet min, i hope we do it as well.

If he wants more than that, then best of luck to him elsewhere.

Develop teague for what,to play 20 min a game in the future to back up rose? I just dont see it,they would want him to be the third pg because he currently is under contract,but if he hasnt improved or nate/another pg signs then hes done, d league or will be waived.

[chitownsalesmen]

Uh the real problem is when Robinson has one big game you completely ignore the 5 bad games hes has. Like I said its not that hes bad on defense, hes like the worst defensive player in the league. hes 5'9! He can score himself but struggles to execute in pick and roll situations badly. I mean hes not even capable of making the pass to an open teammate when he gets doubled most the time.

Yes he can score the ball but whats his overall contribution. Hinrich can defend and hit open 3s. What else do you need?

Then how many good games did Kirk have? On most nights he couldn't be depended on to do anything but bring the ball up the court.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1981/kirk-hinrich

He was atrocious all year and except for a small string of games in the late season he was our most inconsistent player all year. Add in his injuries, and I fail to see this superior player.

Hinrich helped the team on defense and could run the pick and roll. Robinson could score but ball movement suffered and the offense bogged down so if he wasn't scoring it wasn't just his offense that suffered.

And then there is the issue of him being the worst defensive player in the league even though he tries.

Hyperbole at its finest.

[chitownsalesmen]

Wow. What grade are we in? Keep it civil or leave the thread - HS

[Polynice4Pippen]

I don't understand the debate either except that if we re-sign Nate Robinson he is going to play less than Hinrich and will get DNP-CDs depending on matchups. Kirk won't.

And the point is you don't take his size, defensize limitations, and out of control at times play into consideration. You basically remember the 10 games where he just dominated and pretend the rest of the time didn't happen.

Here we go.

Because you're smarter than everyone on this board, right? FOH. Grow up. You have a lot of nerve to tell me what I do and don't take into consideration, especially considering how I just detailed my line of thinking for you in clear, understandable terms. And betting on Thibs' rotation, yeah, good luck with that.

I mean you have basically been all over two threads pining for the Bulls to take anyone with a decent PPG regardless of whether it makes the team better or not. In fact it seems like ppg is all you take into consideration at all.

Comical how you completely just drop the whole Deron scored a bunch on Hinrich lie when you were called out on it. But I shouldn't say that, it wasn't a lie, you literally had no idea what actually happened that game, looked up the box score, and tried to spin it to help your argument. And I admit thats basically how 90% of people argue. They have an opinion and then after the fact go look at stats and try to spin them towards their argument.

When Nate shoots 0-12 against Miami that doesn't count. When Nate scores 20+ thats all that counts.

When every fan and pundit is saying in the playoffs that Hinrich is shutting down Deron Williams and then Hinrich gets hurt and Deron William immediately starts having his way thats a big indicator of a guy who can impact a game on the defensive end.

Well since you're keeping such close tabs on my posting habits you'll note my arguments AGAINST Carmelo Anthony. Also, I had one AGAINST Kevin Love. So, wrong again. I'm for Aldridge, but NOT at the expense of trading Noah. So instead of lumping me with others, take the time to specifically hear what I'm saying next time, how about that?

Deron Williams had his way with Kirk and Nate in Game 1. I "literally" had no idea what happened in that game, huh? Well now I "literally" don't think you understand the meaning of the word "literally". You lump me in with 90% of people because you can't refute my individual argument, you take the lazy way out.

Nate shooting 0-for-12 doesn't count? Who said that? You're just making stuff up now and sound bitter because people give Nate more love than your pride and joy Kirk. Doesn't bother me one bit personally though because I'm not petty like that, I'm a fan of them both. But I can actually acknowledge both Nate and Kirk's pros and cons unlike certain fans.

And you wanna know a secret? Jimmy Butler shut down Deron Williams in Games 5, 6 and 7. Kirk defended him well after Game 1 though. See, I gave Kirk props. Shame you're too bitter to do the same for Nate.

[HomoSapien]

anyone else see the illogic here?

Please, enlighten me.

*sigh*

couldn't i just as easily say that our poor offensive showing meant that nate's offensive strengths were masked? or that our defense would have ranked even higher by giving kirk more PT?

a great defensive team isn't necessarily masking its poor defenders. it probably just has a lot more good defenders

rankings only tell us the end product. not how it was achieved

Huh? Why would you mask someone's strengths? We're talking about masking weaknesses here. The argument was that Nate Robinson was the worst defender in the NBA, to which I responded his lack of height hasn't prevented us from being one of the best defensive teams in the league.

[TylerB]

To continue on the path of destroying your argument and this is about as much as one can destroy the Robinson/Hinrich argument....

1
Hinrich-Hamilton-Deng-Boozer-Noah 428.2 1.03 1.00 +28 14 11
56.0
2
Hinrich-Belinelli-Deng-Boozer-Noah 296.7 0.98 1.02 -22 8 14
36.3
3
Robinson-Belinelli-Deng-Boozer-Noah 236.4 0.97 1.08 -35 12 15
44.4
4
Robinson-Hamilton-Deng-Boozer-Noah 218.4 0.93 1.07 -47 7 10
41.1

These were he Bulls top 4 lineups in minutes played this year. The same two groups of 4 guys with either Nate or Kirk. Better offensively and defensively with Kirk running the show and those are huge sample sizes. And this was the worst season of Kirks career.

[Red8911]

I'm glad you brought up intangibles. The funny thing about them is that they only seem to apply to bad basketball players. It's like they are invisible traits assigned to him so that people can convince themselves of his importance. The interesting things about these intangibles though are that they are never applied to Nate Robinson. Kirk is often characterized as smart (another invisible trait typically assigned to players that aren't very good) and hard-working yet Robinson's energy, courage, and heart are never brought into the equation.

Uh the real problem is when Robinson has one big game you completely ignore the 5 bad games hes has. Like I said its not that hes bad on defense, hes like the worst defensive player in the league. hes 5'9! He can score himself but struggles to execute in pick and roll situations badly. I mean hes not even capable of making the pass to an open teammate when he gets doubled most the time.

Yes he can score the ball but whats his overall contribution. Hinrich can defend and hit open 3s. What else do you need?

What else do you need?? Uh, how about scoring? We were 29th in the league in points per game! On the other hand we were 3rd in the league in points allowed. Clearly we are able to hide Nate's deficiencies. Kirk, not so much. Robinson can pass out of a double team just fine. And as for passing in general, per 36 he averages just as many assists as Kirk.

Homosapien what was the record last season with kirk in the lineup,then without? It was clearly much better when he played,is that a coincidence?You want him to score but that wasnt his role,he never looked to shoot.. I cant believe bulls fans still dis kirk its ridiculous,if ppl still dont see what he brings to the team then they dont know much about bball plain n simple..Yes his injuries were a problem,but when he played he was very good.Why start comparing him to nate? they got different games and bring different things to the table,one is a real point guard who defends,the other scores.Anyway It would be great to have both of them off the bench next season.

[Captain Thrust]

Comon guys just love and appreciate BOTH Captain Kirk and lil Nate for who they are!
I know I do

<3


<3



They both bring things that help out team. In fact they also both compliment each other so well that
Nate/Kirk __ __ __ was actually one of our best lineups this past season.
Why can't we have and enjoy both of em of the bench next season?
Good teams need BOTH a hard hat guy like Kirk and a firecracker like Nate on their teams.

[chitownsalesmen]

Wow. What grade are we in? Keep it civil or leave the thread - HS

Was worth the warning.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Comon guys just love and appreciate BOTH Captain Kirk and lil Nate for who they are!
I know I do

<3


<3



They both bring things that help out team. In fact they also both compliment each other so well that
Nate/Kirk __ __ __ was actually one of our best lineups this past season.
Why can't we have and enjoy both of em of the bench next season?
Good teams need BOTH a hard hat guy like Kirk and a firecracker like Nate on their teams.

I'm with you. Too bad certain Bulls fans can't. The Nate hate is just strange. The guy was everything you'd want and more from a vet minimum guy who had to step up and be the team's #1 offensive option by the time the playoffs rolled around. Thanks for nothing, Nate.

[Ajosu]

But it was reported that the Bulls already offered nate the vet min. He's just holding out for more. He could still be back if no team blows him away.

Im getting the sense that we want Teague to develop, and playing Nate and Kirk ahead of him and relegating him to the 4th PG doesn't do that.

Its a hunch on my end, nothing concrete, but i see that as a possibility.

Whilst i would understand that move and have faith in Thibs and the FO in the talent they select in the draft, if Nate is willing to resign for the vet min, i hope we do it as well.

If he wants more than that, then best of luck to him elsewhere.

I would understand the thought process, but disagree with it pretty strongly. Mostly because I never liked the Teague pick to begin with, and think the odds are pretty high that Teague never becomes a better player than Nate, let alone in next season when we are supposed to be contending for a title.

Somehow we have been debating Kirk vs Nate here the last few pages. I don't know why, because Kirk is here regardless of what we do with Nate, and I think both can co-exist in the second unit. But the thought that Teague could have any role in the decision to not bring back Nate just irks me to know end!

There is just no downside to bringing Nate back. Forget about his flaws or the position he plays on the floor. He is good at the main thing we lack - the ability to score, and create his own offense. He would be a nice option to have off the bench, and I loved his energy and attitude on the court for us last season. I would love to have him back.

[HomoSapien]

Homosapien what was the record last season with kirk in the lineup,then without? It was clearly much better when he played,is that a coincidence?

That's a stupid stat and a huge spin. The question is what was the record with Kirk/Nate vs Nate/Teague. All things aren't equal. Kirk had Nate as a backup, whereas Nate had the least NBA ready player in the league.

You want him to score but that wasnt his role,he never looked to shoot.. I cant believe bulls fans still dis kirk its ridiculous,

I didn't say I want him to be a scorer, but I do want him to not suck at offense. There's a difference.

if ppl still dont see what he brings to the team then they dont know much about bball plain n simple..Yes his injuries were a problem,but when he played he was very good

If Kirk Hinrich was "very good" then we need to redefine our standards.

[bullsnewdynasty]

Homosapien what was the record last season with kirk in the lineup,then without? It was clearly much better when he played,is that a coincidence?

How about considering the fact that Nate was often pushed into 40 mpg because Marquis Teague was not a serviceable backup point guard when Kirk went out?

You want him to score but that wasnt his role,he never looked to shoot.. I cant believe bulls fans still dis kirk its ridiculous,if ppl still dont see what he brings to the team then they dont know much about bball plain n simple..

It just seems ridiculous to bash Nate for his defense when the Bulls were already an elite defensive team, especially given Nate brought instant offense to a team desperately in need of it, given how piss poor they were at scoring.

Yes his injuries were a problem,but when he played he was very good.Why start comparing him to nate? they got different games and bring different things to the table,one is a real point guard who defends,the other scores.Anyway It would be great to have both of them off the bench next season.

Agreed.

[kingkirk]

Somehow we have been debating Kirk vs Nate here the last few pages. I don't know why, because Kirk is here regardless of what we do with Nate, and I think both can co-exist in the second unit. But the thought that Teague could have any role in the decision to not bring back Nate just irks me to know end!

There is just no downside to bringing Nate back. Forget about his flaws or the position he plays on the floor. He is good at the main thing we lack - the ability to score, and create his own offense. He would be a nice option to have off the bench, and I loved his energy and attitude on the court for us last season. I would love to have him back.

Can't say i disagree with anything of this. It makes sense to me, but all i was saying or posting was from the perspective from the FO and trying to understand their line of thinking, and in doing so, its merely speculation on my behalf.

I think Nate has a spot on this roster regardless of Kirk, Teague & Rose, and if Thibs is willing to play him with Kirk, then he has a place here for 15-20 minutes a game.

That remains unclear, as does the notion that the FO want him back at all.

For the record though, i agree with you, and if he would agree to the minimum, then i don't even think twice about signing him.

[kingkirk]

I love this board way too much, but we need to get better at appreciating all our players, not just several.

We need to get over turning these threads into Nate vs Kirk, like we have done for years with other players.

Both guys can fit on this team and both bring something of value that the other seemingly can't.

Both have their role, and more importantly, when both are on the floor for the Bulls, they both do everything they can for this franchise. Not sure why that leads to this board or thread getting into each other about it, but both guys have a role and are worth something to this franchise.

/end hippie rant

[Ben]

Chicago Bulls Rumors ‏@chicagobullsbot 7m

Chicago Bulls Nate Robinson receiving a big offer he'll likely have to wait for until other free agents have signed. (Source: Aggrey Sam)

I can't find a record of this on Aggrey Sam's twitter account or columns, but I'm fearful.

[HomoSapien]

I love this board way too much, but we need to get better at appreciating all our players, not just several.

We need to get over turning these threads into Nate vs Kirk, like we have done for years with other players.

Both guys can fit on this team and both bring something of value that the other seemingly can't.

Both have their role, and more importantly, when both are on the floor for the Bulls, they both do everything they can for this franchise. Not sure why that leads to this board or thread getting into each other about it, but both guys have a role and are worth something to this franchise.

/end hippie rant

I do agree with this, but I will add one thing. This is essentially an extension of Ben Gordon vs Kirk Hinrich. Nate Robinson has become Ben Gordon. Behind these debates is a greater basketball philosophical question of offense vs defense, which is strange because championship teams tend to rank in the top 10 in both categories. You need to be great at both to win. That said, over the years, I've found it quite irritating that on this board defensive players are automatically attributed as being smart and selfless while offensive players are usually reduced to being selfish and a liability. Being able to score points isn't about having random skill. It takes intelligence to know how to score.

[HomoSapien]

Chicago Bulls Rumors ‏@chicagobullsbot 7m

Chicago Bulls Nate Robinson receiving a big offer he'll likely have to wait for until other free agents have signed. (Source: Aggrey Sam)

I can't find a record of this on Aggrey Sam's twitter account or columns, but I'm fearful.

Unless this is a new development that just came over the last few hours, it seems unlikely based on what Nate tweeted.

[Jvaughn]

i can ask the same question of you: where is nate superior aside from shooting?

let's also recognize that kirk's shooting last season was a career worst. against starters. that's very likely to improve when he's back where he belongs coming off the bench. like nate did for most of last season. nate was predictably not as effective when he had to start last year. particularly in the playoffs

i'd also like to point out that an important quality of a top team is consistency. and as has been mentioned already, it's much easier to retain consistency on the defensive end. now, when you're an UNDERDOG going into a game, that's when you might wanna shake things up

It's not just shooting. It's offense in general. He can shoot, create his own offense, draw doubles, and yes he can pass. On a team that struggles mightily with offense, I'll take that over PG defense (least important on the floor). Nate is a threat that has to game planned for. Kirk is not. He just exists. At this point in his career, he's that vet that you say is out there because he "just does the right thing." He's our Derek Fisher.