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Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars

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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#281 » by Ruzious » Sat Jul 6, 2013 7:21 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Ruzious wrote:If John Wall is pulling strings of the Wiz management, Wiz management is even worse than I imagined. Just the idea is an insult to players who have actually accomplished something. I've got nothing against John Wall - I'm very glad he's on the Wiz, and of course, it wouldn't be his fault that management would be that inept.


I've heard this sentiment before and think it's pretty stupid. Can I soften that to 'reflexively narrow-minded'? Nah: stupid.

First of all, specifically in the case of John Wall, for the low opinion of a player that both Flip and Randy have said is the smartest player they have ever coached. Here is a player you have literally built the team around considering he's the longest tenured veteran on the team, and a player who you expect to likely be the best compensated player on the squad if you keep him long enough. Your 'franchise' player, so he goes, so go the Wizards. If any player deserves input it would be this one in particular.

But more broadly, for not taking into account the insights of your lead point guard, a position that often player amounts to a head coach on the floor. John Wall made good comments to this effect:
ME: I keep hearing you talk about being a leader. Leadership is interesting because it’s not really something you can work on in the weight room or on the practice court by yourself.

WALL: See, how I grew up is lead by example. Lead by example is great, but sometimes you have to speak up. And you just have to learn which ways you can talk to certain players. That’s something I was capable of doing when I was at the University of Kentucky, and it’s what I’m doing with the Wizards. I’m learning ways to talk to certain players and certain teammates, and be able to take criticism when they something to me.

ME: So you’re learning which buttons to push with each guy?

WALL: Some people you have to bite your tongue. Some people you can yell at. Some people you just have to talk to on the side. And then you can’t control how some people take it. Especially when you need a person on his game, you don’t want to mess up their rhythm. So you have to know how to talk to them.

ME: And you have to do all that in the middle of an NBA game when everything is sort of frenzied and out of control.

WALL: That’s why point guard is not an easy job. I see why head coaches need their point guards, because you’re basically a second head coach on the court. Your coaches have to be able to trust you, just like your teammates have to be able to trust you to call the right plays and do the right things.


But with an even more widescreen look, basketball is a sport where you play 5 people on the court at a time, each of these players can have a far more significant impact on the outcome of a game than any single player in any other team sport with the exception of the goalie in hockey and the quarterback of an NFL squad. Chemistry is a delicate thing, any business would be shortsighted not to listen to players at all 15 roster spots, throughout the year and on their way out the door in exit interviews. And by all means you would weight more heavily the opinions of the players who carry the heaviest workload.

Recall too that coaches spend far less time with the players than they do with each other. Players hang out in the locker room, join each other for practice, spend leisure time at each others houses, get drunk with each other, steal each others' women, hang out in the offseason, etc etc. You couldn't hire a security agent to get as close access to each others mindset, opinions, attitudes, focus, habits, and so on. It would be a pretty piss poor organization that chose to build itself irrespective of the input of all of it's personnel, from the kid wiping sweat off the floor on up to the crumbs in Ernie's mustache.

Specifically in basketball where we laud the organization of a team like the Spurs, but read where a key reason why they succeed, and why their assistants and players go on to become good front office people and coaches throughout the league is because they open up their decision making processes to input from all people in the organization. This is a key reason why they tend to only hire smart players, they value their input and experience. And the truth is, while John Wall ought to have greater input than the keyboard pecking obsessives sitting in their sweaty underpants reading pixels all offseason, there are a few bloated egos here who are of the opinion that the organization would be run better if they'd also hear input of the legion of volunteer scouts that form a sort of sapient fungal brain colony congealed in the grout of damp little corners of the internet like this here message board. Yes they should listen to John Wall, yes his opinion should matter more than yours. Seems to me a smart organization ought to listen to the opinions of knowledgeable fans as well, if they assigned an employee to sift the wheat from the chaff and weed out the dumber opinions, like, say, yours right here. :clown:

I'm not sure what set that off, but feel free to put me on ignore.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#282 » by payitforward » Sat Jul 6, 2013 7:21 pm

montestewart wrote:
Ruzious wrote:The roster is quite lopsided right now. They drafted 2 perimeter players and have signed 2 perimeter players. They have 1 PF and 1 C. Maybe... it'd be smart to make a move for... at least 1 PF and/or C. Just a thought.

First everyone criticized EG for building an all-offense, no-defense team, so he went out and got nothing but defense-minded players, then suddenly everyone was like, "Where's the scoring?" So he adds nothing but perimeter offense, and now that's not good enough either?

Come on! He can only do one thing at a time, and it sounds like people are expecting him to build a winning team on his own. He's not a miracle worker! All he can do is acquire players, and he has. It's not his fault that they have shown so poorly these last ten years.

I agree -- people have this weird idea that just because you are a GM you should be better than I don't know some guy off the street? at building an successful NBA team. Ridiculous!

For one thing, why did those bad players let Ernie draft them? They're not deaf and dumb -- they could have told him they weren't all that good.

Another thing, there's more to being a GM than just being successful. For example, look how tanned and rested Ernie looks in recent press conferences. He projects confidence and makes people feel comfortable w/ his "leave it to me and anyway what do you know?" attitude. Without that, how are you supposed to keep your job? And without a job, how good a GM can you be?

Rome wasn't built in a day, ok? And look how long it took to decline too. Imagine how much more quickly that might have happened had it been run by Emperor Grunfieldus.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#283 » by payitforward » Sat Jul 6, 2013 7:37 pm

doclinkin wrote:...we laud the organization of a team like the Spurs, ... they open up their decision making processes to input from all people in the organization. This is a key reason why they tend to only hire smart players, they value their input and experience.

I laud them because they are successful -- this year, last year, most years and above all over the long run. As soon as the Wizards are successful, we can start lauding them for where they take input.

For example, in 2011 Ernie had the worst draft I've seen any GM have in 20 years. Would you look on it w/ more favor if he could cite all the input he took?
doclinkin wrote:And the truth is, while John Wall ought to have greater input than the keyboard pecking obsessives sitting in their sweaty underpants reading pixels all offseason, there are a few bloated egos here who are of the opinion that the organization would be run better if they'd also hear input of the legion of volunteer scouts that form a sort of sapient fungal brain colony congealed in the grout of damp little corners of the internet like this here message board. Yes they should listen to John Wall, yes his opinion should matter more than yours. Seems to me a smart organization ought to listen to the opinions of knowledgeable fans as well, if they assigned an employee to sift the wheat from the chaff and weed out the dumber opinions, like, say, yours right here. :clown:

Wow... you really do want to argue! The people you disagree w/ are obsessive, bloated egos in sweaty underpants? I suppose the people you agree w/ are measured, modest and don't over-analyze, huh?

So sorry, Doc, but Ernie Grunfield and the Washington Wizards don't get the job done. Simple enough, wouldn't you say? And when you fail, fail, fail year after year, year, year -- why maybe, yeah, some other ideas, some other people should be in the mix.

So, you bet, we need John Wall's input. We need it to go to a different GM. Wouldn't you agree?
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#284 » by payitforward » Sat Jul 6, 2013 7:41 pm

Oh, and please do keep in mind that you are part of "the legion of volunteer scouts that form a sort of sapient fungal brain colony congealed in the grout of damp little corners of the internet like this here message board." "Part of..." what am I talking about? You are at the very center of it!
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#285 » by montestewart » Sat Jul 6, 2013 8:01 pm

Doc, my underpants are never sweaty, because I wear air conditioned pants.

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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#286 » by doclinkin » Sat Jul 6, 2013 9:30 pm

It's summer, come on this is when the fun starts. Nobody is really taking things seriously are they? I need to put up that Trolls and Insults thread again so we can get in a good dust up every now and again.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#287 » by doclinkin » Sat Jul 6, 2013 9:43 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:...we laud the organization of a team like the Spurs, ... they open up their decision making processes to input from all people in the organization. This is a key reason why they tend to only hire smart players, they value their input and experience.

I laud them because they are successful -- this year, last year, most years and above all over the long run. As soon as the Wizards are successful, we can start lauding them for where they take input.

For example, in 2011 Ernie had the worst draft I've seen any GM have in 20 years. Would you look on it w/ more favor if he could cite all the input he took?
doclinkin wrote:And the truth is, while John Wall ought to have greater input than the keyboard pecking obsessives sitting in their sweaty underpants reading pixels all offseason, there are a few bloated egos here who are of the opinion that the organization would be run better if they'd also hear input of the legion of volunteer scouts that form a sort of sapient fungal brain colony congealed in the grout of damp little corners of the internet like this here message board. Yes they should listen to John Wall, yes his opinion should matter more than yours. Seems to me a smart organization ought to listen to the opinions of knowledgeable fans as well, if they assigned an employee to sift the wheat from the chaff and weed out the dumber opinions, like, say, yours right here. :clown:

Wow... you really do want to argue! The people you disagree w/ are obsessive, bloated egos in sweaty underpants? I suppose the people you agree w/ are measured, modest and don't over-analyze, huh?

So sorry, Doc, but Ernie Grunfield and the Washington Wizards don't get the job done. Simple enough, wouldn't you say? And when you fail, fail, fail year after year, year, year -- why maybe, yeah, some other ideas, some other people should be in the mix.

So, you bet, we need John Wall's input. We need it to go to a different GM. Wouldn't you agree?


Well right: : would you prefer that Ernie, with his track record, was entirely responsible for who we select or re-sign, with no input from scouting etc? Consider John Wall a lead scout.

Nah, I soured on Ernie when he traded the #5 for slop, had qualms before then when he sold picks for cash, and inked Euros who would never play for us or who proved worthless. But gave him the benefit of the doubt. Understood why with Abe's failing health he wanted to force the issue and get an instant return on investment rather than wait for a rookie. But it was a bad move and was tough to play Mr Positive behind that one -- EVEN THOUGH many of the stat-heads and Berrians loved Mike Miller for our team.

By the way understand all of the above post you quote was written late at night with EXTREMELY sweaty underpants. I do not except myself from the fungal colony of our collective hive intelligence. My own ego is turgid and throbbing fulsomely. Consider all as: [myself included].
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#288 » by montestewart » Sun Jul 7, 2013 3:13 am

doclinkin wrote:It's summer, come on this is when the fun starts. Nobody is really taking things seriously are they? I need to put up that Trolls and Insults thread again so we can get in a good dust up every now and again.

As I mentioned, air conditioned pants.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#289 » by Kanyewest » Sun Jul 7, 2013 5:15 am

Dat2U wrote:
nate33 wrote:
closg00 wrote: is there any evidence that there was ANY team interested in Webster besides us? I hate when Ernie bids against himself, he does it often. Webster has been injured most of his career, no-need to do a 4-year deal with him. It appears that most of the FA signings have been 2-year deals.

Iguadola: 4 years $48M
Evans: 4 years $44M
Mayo: 3 years $24M
Calderon: 4 years $29M
Ginobili: 2 years $14M
K.Martin: 4 years $28M
Redick: 4 years $27M
JR Smith: 4 years $25M
Korver: 4 years $24M (he is 32 years old)
Webster: 4 years $22M (presumably more like 3 years $16M with a $1M buyout)
Budinger: 3 years $16M (coming off a knee injury)
Barnes: 3 years $12M (contender discount)
Belinelli: 2 years $6M (contender discount)
Dunleavy: 2 years $6M (he is 32 and hasn't been a starter for 2 years)

This notion that Webster was overpaid and would have been available for less if we were patient is simply false. Clearly, the price for competent guards has been very high this offseason. There are too many teams with cap room bidding up the value of free agents. Looking at this list, I'd say Webster's contract is one of the better values. Only Martin, Barnes and Dunleavy look like better deals to me. It's notable that Martin and Dunleavy were early signings, as were Budinger and Webster. The recent signings (Mayo, Iggy, Evans, Calderon) seem to be even greater overpayments.

It's also worth noting that Calderon's contract is probably a sign that Jarrett Jack will be out of the MLE price range.


Sam Amick ‏@sam_amick 11m
Can confirm Dorell Wright to Portland on two-year, $6 mil deal. No options and all guaranteed. Nice pickup.


I won't argue or dispute your claim that Webster wasn't overpaid. But that doesn't mean resigning him was the smartest or wisest idea considering our roster and Webster's injury history.

Exhibit A... Dorell Wright. A comparable option at SF. Two years on a modest deal. Still fairly young and solid 3 pt shooter.

This is why I was in favor of waiting and not rushing into bad deals the first day or two of free agency. Deals were to be had for the front offices intent on finding them.


2 years at 6 million seems like a good value considering the Blazers have Batum and Matthews if Wright doesn't play well.

I would still say Webster compares favorably to Wright. Webster shot 42.2% from 3 while Wright shot 37.4% from 3, which put Webster at #12 in the 3 point shooting percentage in the entire NBA, while Wright wasn't even in the top 50. Webster also had a TS% of 60 compared to Wright at 55%.

Still, I wonder if that is worth a $2 million difference per year. I'm not as familiar with Wright's game so I can't comment on his shot selection, decision making, and defense- I feel that the Wizards valued all of those things with Webster when they resigned him.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#290 » by TGW » Sun Jul 7, 2013 7:55 am

Dorell Wright for 3 mil per is a MUCH better value than Webster at 5.5 mil per. This is just simple money management.

You shouldn't spend that much to sign a guy you project to be a backup, when you just spent a high lottery pick on a player who plays the same position. It's stupid, and a typical Grunfeld move. It seems that they were so scared to let Webster leave town without a contract, that they basically gave in to his demands.

Meh. I don't know why I even bother.

*edit* and yes, my sweatpants are wet. it's annoying and uncomfortable...I'm gonna blame that on Ernie as well for getting me worked up at 4 in the AM. :evil:
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#291 » by nate33 » Sun Jul 7, 2013 1:47 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Sam Amick ‏@sam_amick 11m
Can confirm Dorell Wright to Portland on two-year, $6 mil deal. No options and all guaranteed. Nice pickup.


I won't argue or dispute your claim that Webster wasn't overpaid. But that doesn't mean resigning him was the smartest or wisest idea considering our roster and Webster's injury history.

Exhibit A... Dorell Wright. A comparable option at SF. Two years on a modest deal. Still fairly young and solid 3 pt shooter.

This is why I was in favor of waiting and not rushing into bad deals the first day or two of free agency. Deals were to be had for the front offices intent on finding them.

Fair point. Wright's deal is definitely better than Webster's.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#292 » by theboomking » Sun Jul 7, 2013 4:24 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
2 years at 6 million seems like a good value considering the Blazers have Batum and Matthews if Wright doesn't play well.

I would still say Webster compares favorably to Wright. Webster shot 42.2% from 3 while Wright shot 37.4% from 3, which put Webster at #12 in the 3 point shooting percentage in the entire NBA, while Wright wasn't even in the top 50. Webster also had a TS% of 60 compared to Wright at 55%.

Still, I wonder if that is worth a $2 million difference per year. I'm not as familiar with Wright's game so I can't comment on his shot selection, decision making, and defense- I feel that the Wizards valued all of those things with Webster when they resigned him.


The extra efficiency is a big deal. There is a big difference between 42% and 37% from 3 point range, especially in a player where hitting the 3 and spacing the floor is such a huge part of their role. The difference in TS% is also meaningful. I'm not sure how sustainable that is for Martell though.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#293 » by montestewart » Sun Jul 7, 2013 4:37 pm

theboomking wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
2 years at 6 million seems like a good value considering the Blazers have Batum and Matthews if Wright doesn't play well.

I would still say Webster compares favorably to Wright. Webster shot 42.2% from 3 while Wright shot 37.4% from 3, which put Webster at #12 in the 3 point shooting percentage in the entire NBA, while Wright wasn't even in the top 50. Webster also had a TS% of 60 compared to Wright at 55%.

Still, I wonder if that is worth a $2 million difference per year. I'm not as familiar with Wright's game so I can't comment on his shot selection, decision making, and defense- I feel that the Wizards valued all of those things with Webster when they resigned him.


The extra efficiency is a big deal. There is a big difference between 42% and 37% from 3 point range, especially in a player where hitting the 3 and spacing the floor is such a huge part of their role. The difference in TS% is also meaningful. I'm not sure how sustainable that is for Martell though.

It is a big difference, but over their careers, their shooting percentages are much closer (Wright has slightly better FT% and FG%, and is slightly behind elsewhere), especially prior to Webster's spike last year. Wright has clearly better rebounding, assist, steal n umbers, a better PER, and better WS/48.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#294 » by Kanyewest » Sun Jul 7, 2013 5:51 pm

Interesting piece by Zach Lowe who explains why wings that can defend and shoot the 3 are becoming more valuable in the league (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/922 ... m-suggests). Another interesting tidbit from the article is that Ariza shot his career best 36% (excluding the postseason where he shot 49% once with the Lakers) and shot 43% from 3 with Wall on the floor.

Maybe having 3-4 of these guys with Webster, Ariza, Porter, and Rice may not be such a bad thing, especially when going against teams like Miami.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#295 » by verbal8 » Mon Jul 8, 2013 12:23 am

If you look at past years a player like Webster would probably get the full mle. However it looks like in general there has been a bit of sanity in the FA market.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#296 » by dobrojim » Mon Jul 8, 2013 6:47 pm

Kanyewest wrote:Interesting piece by Zach Lowe who explains why wings that can defend and shoot the 3 are becoming more valuable in the league (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/922 ... m-suggests). Another interesting tidbit from the article is that Ariza shot his career best 36% (excluding the postseason where he shot 49% once with the Lakers) and shot 43% from 3 with Wall on the floor.

Maybe having 3-4 of these guys with Webster, Ariza, Porter, and Rice may not be such a bad thing, especially when going against teams like Miami.



I been having similar thoughts. The idea of deep depth at the 3 doesn't seem that bad
when the top 3 teams in our conference all feature SFs (at least as starters) as their #1 player:
LBJ, Paul George and Melo. Having as much quality depth at the that position
seems like it could wind up being useful.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#297 » by pcbothwel » Mon Jul 8, 2013 7:47 pm

I think another thing to consider is that Webster, Ariza and Porter could all be on the floor at the same time and could defend the 2-4 extremely well and still space the Floor with elite shooters.
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#298 » by Deeptu McPullup » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:05 am

Martell has the quote of the season locked up in July:

Being himself, as it turns out, also includes two new facial changes: a goatee that has gotten so long that "it's starting to get split ends" and a fro hawk that he plans to "do something crazy with" next week. The former may grow into a long beard of sorts that falls down to his chest, because "I'd honestly feel like an actual Wizard if I had that." The latter may grow more because "it's getting crazy here [as he points to his goatee], so it's only right if it also gets crazy on top."


http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/7/9/ ... s-nba-2013

:clap:
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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#299 » by pineappleheadindc » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:15 am

doclinkin wrote:It's summer, come on this is when the fun starts. Nobody is really taking things seriously are they? I need to put up that Trolls and Insults thread again so we can get in a good dust up every now and again.


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Re: Webster re-ups for 4 years/22 million dollars 

Post#300 » by payitforward » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:03 pm

theboomking wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:2 years at 6 million seems like a good value ...I would still say Webster compares favorably to Wright. Webster shot 42.2% from 3 while Wright shot 37.4% from 3, which put Webster at #12 in the 3 point shooting percentage in the entire NBA, while Wright wasn't even in the top 50. Webster also had a TS% of 60 compared to Wright at 55%.

Still, I wonder if that is worth a $2 million difference per year. I'm not as familiar with Wright's game so I can't comment on his shot selection, decision making, and defense- I feel that the Wizards valued all of those things with Webster when they resigned him.


The extra efficiency is a big deal. There is a big difference between 42% and 37% from 3 point range, especially in a player where hitting the 3 and spacing the floor is such a huge part of their role. The difference in TS% is also meaningful. I'm not sure how sustainable that is for Martell though.

You are cherry-picking a number that supports your point. Martell has a higher TS% than Wright, but Wright gets more boards, blocks, steals and assists, and he turns it over a little less and fouls a little less. Put it all together, and he had a better season than Martell.

Not necessarily arguing w/ the deal MW got -- but DW was a steal at $3m/year.

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