BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani

[BOOMbip]

He averaged that much because he was being featured on Toronto, and did so inefficiently. Do you really think Bargs is getting 15 shots a game with Melo on the team?

Never understood why people do this.

Because somebody else is added to your team, doesn't mean that shots are taken away from your best player. If anything, some BAD shots are taken away from your best player and a lot of shots from your lesser players are decreased.

You won't see JR with 16 shots/game next year.
You won't see Ray with 13 shots/game next year.
No shots from Kidd.
No shots from Novak.
No shots from Copeland.
Less shots for Prig.

Redistribution starts with the role players. Not the stars.

Here's the thing. 15 shots is 2nd/1st option kind of shots. The Raptors did everything they could to put him in a position to succeed, yet he didn't.

On the Knicks, he's going from a 1st/2nd option to a bench/fringe starter aka 4th/5th option.

Novak, Kidd, and Copeland barely got opportunities to score anyway.

Chances are, he's getting 9-10 shots and scoring 12 point. What a diference maker that will be. Will definitely make us better than Miami, Indy, and Chicago, and be worth the 3 picks.

You keep beating this 'everything they could to succeed' drum that Tor supposedly did but all they did was keep changing coaches, players and his position all around him while at the same time expecting him to succeed. He didn't fail, he's scored points and did it relatively efficiently when you consider his role as a mid range to outside shooter. One bad season, the last, doesn't make it his norm, stop making isht up.

Plus we are talking about the Tor organization under an overrated Colangelo whose tenure was more of a failure than you claim Barg was. You take that player out of the herky jerky plan that Colangelo offered and put him in a FO and coaching staff that NY has with their more stable situation and give him a role he can understand and fulfill his performance will be different than what you saw from him the past year or two in Tor.

[Thugger HBC]

I don't know exactly what the Knicks plans for Barg is but with his talent and skill set along with what they gave up for him, namely the 1st, I can't see that they won't at least try to use his ability to score the ball. Especially when you consider their playoff downfall was largely responsible due to scoring and namely a second scorer and especially a big who could pull the defense out of the paint to give the Knicks room to drive to the basket without meeting a shot blocker.

To suggest that Barg can't put up 16-17ppg as a second option getting 12-13fga would to be more unreasonable to than suggest it's possible. You don't have to go as far as to say it's probable, just possible and not an unrealistic possibility. Undoubtedly we hope he's healthy and stays that way but if he is it doesn't make any sense that the Knicks wouldn't play him good minutes and give him the opportunity to score, if they don't it's a waste of an opportunity and a traded 1st round draft pick.

Understood points.

I honestly dont know why they traded for Bargnani, i really cannot think of a logical reason, unless the "second scorer" report was actually true.

Most know I dont like him as a basketball player, but I'd love to eat the crow as a fan of the team above all.

I realistically cant see him getting that many attempt next to Melo without a huge scaling back from melo and a high increase of pace, and to be able to collect 17 points off such attempts would indicate an efficiency bargnani has rarely shown....one year of his career to be accurate.

For me, history supercedes the hope of something rare becoming the norm.

[JustaKnickFan]

I don't know exactly what the Knicks plans for Barg is but with his talent and skill set along with what they gave up for him, namely the 1st, I can't see that they won't at least try to use his ability to score the ball. Especially when you consider their playoff downfall was largely responsible due to scoring and namely a second scorer and especially a big who could pull the defense out of the paint to give the Knicks room to drive to the basket without meeting a shot blocker.

To suggest that Barg can't put up 16-17ppg as a second option getting 12-13fga would to be more unreasonable to than suggest it's possible. You don't have to go as far as to say it's probable, just possible and not an unrealistic possibility. Undoubtedly we hope he's healthy and stays that way but if he is it doesn't make any sense that the Knicks wouldn't play him good minutes and give him the opportunity to score, if they don't it's a waste of an opportunity and a traded 1st round draft pick.

The most efficient he's ever been is 17 points on 14 shots so you're pretty much saying this year is going to be a career year for Bargs, despite Bargs getting progressively worse due to injuries.

[DLTGWH]

They rebound when it matters.

They won game 6 because of a rebound.

They won game six because Spurs missed 2 free throws in the last 30 seconds...

But apparently bad rebounding teams can get big rebounds. Seems more to me that rebounding is a component of multiple variables. Obviously including fundamental practices such as boxing out and predictive trajectory (knowing where the balls headed off the rim. But also things like Pace (less shots = less rebounds), opponent shot selection (more outside shots = more offensive rebounds), LUCK (that backtap by the heat could have gone in any direction, but went directly to where Bosh was standing).

Point is... Rebounding in a way has become overrated. Its an important part of basketball, but the teams that seemingly are the most successful, arent deeming it critical and the top focus.

Second point... Bargs lack of rebounding and its adverse affect is getting slightly blown out of proportion...

They won game 6 because of a lot of things, and rebounding is one of them.

The Heat are a good rebounding team in the playoffs. That's why Lebron had 12 rebounds. That's why Wade had 10 in game 7. They crash the boards in the playoffs. Hell, even Bosh had a few double doubles, and had 7 rebounds in game 7.

Anyway, all 4 teams in the ECF and WCF are great defensive teams, and all are great rebounding teams as well (Heat when it matters). There's a reason the Pacers gave the Heat fits when they were much less talented.

Rebounding is not overrated, and is still vital to building a championship team.

Again, lots of things are vital to winning championships. Rebounding is one of them.

Memphis, Chicago, Brooklyn, Houston, all great rebounding teams. Knicks were top 10 in rebounding.

Theres a reason players like Reggie Evans become journeymen and not core pieces to a championship team.

[JustaKnickFan]

Never understood why people do this.

Because somebody else is added to your team, doesn't mean that shots are taken away from your best player. If anything, some BAD shots are taken away from your best player and a lot of shots from your lesser players are decreased.

You won't see JR with 16 shots/game next year.
You won't see Ray with 13 shots/game next year.
No shots from Kidd.
No shots from Novak.
No shots from Copeland.
Less shots for Prig.

Redistribution starts with the role players. Not the stars.

Here's the thing. 15 shots is 2nd/1st option kind of shots. The Raptors did everything they could to put him in a position to succeed, yet he didn't.

On the Knicks, he's going from a 1st/2nd option to a bench/fringe starter aka 4th/5th option.

Novak, Kidd, and Copeland barely got opportunities to score anyway.

Chances are, he's getting 9-10 shots and scoring 12 point. What a diference maker that will be. Will definitely make us better than Miami, Indy, and Chicago, and be worth the 3 picks.

You keep beating this 'everything they could to succeed' drum that Tor supposedly did but all they did was keep changing coaches, players and his position all around him while at the same time expecting him to succeed. He didn't fail, he's scored points and did it relatively efficiently when you consider his role as a mid range to outside shooter. One bad season, the last, doesn't make it his norm, stop making isht up.

Plus we are talking about the Tor organization under an overrated Colangelo whose tenure was more of a failure than you claim Barg was. You take that player out of the herky jerky plan that Colangelo offered and put him in a FO and coaching staff that NY has with their more stable situation and give him a role he can understand and fulfill his performance will be different than what you saw from him the past year or two in Tor.

Well they did try to do everything they could to get him to succeed.

They ran plays for him, they designed schemes for him, they coddled him, they let him do his thing, etc.

He failed because his team was still a lottery team. The points he scored was efficient, and was offset by his awful rebounding and help defense.

He's consistently had bad seasons, hell you can argue that every year he had was bad because of his awvful rebounding and defense.

When he returned to Toronto after his injury he was given a role. To just provide offense off the bench. Needless to say, his play was still bad.

[JustaKnickFan]

They rebound when it matters.

They won game 6 because of a rebound.

They won game six because Spurs missed 2 free throws in the last 30 seconds...

But apparently bad rebounding teams can get big rebounds. Seems more to me that rebounding is a component of multiple variables. Obviously including fundamental practices such as boxing out and predictive trajectory (knowing where the balls headed off the rim. But also things like Pace (less shots = less rebounds), opponent shot selection (more outside shots = more offensive rebounds), LUCK (that backtap by the heat could have gone in any direction, but went directly to where Bosh was standing).

Point is... Rebounding in a way has become overrated. Its an important part of basketball, but the teams that seemingly are the most successful, arent deeming it critical and the top focus.

Second point... Bargs lack of rebounding and its adverse affect is getting slightly blown out of proportion...

They won game 6 because of a lot of things, and rebounding is one of them.

The Heat are a good rebounding team in the playoffs. That's why Lebron had 12 rebounds. That's why Wade had 10 in game 7. They crash the boards in the playoffs. Hell, even Bosh had a few double doubles, and had 7 rebounds in game 7.

Anyway, all 4 teams in the ECF and WCF are great defensive teams, and all are great rebounding teams as well (Heat when it matters). There's a reason the Pacers gave the Heat fits when they were much less talented.

Rebounding is not overrated, and is still vital to building a championship team.

Again, lots of things are vital to winning championships. Rebounding is one of them.

Memphis, Chicago, Brooklyn, Houston, all great rebounding teams. Knicks were top 10 in rebounding.

Theres a reason players like Reggie Evans become journeymen and not core pieces to a championship team.[/quote]
They were in the regular season. However, rebounding in the playoff is a whole different story. They were killed on the glass in the Pacers series, and that is what did them in. The Pacers scored off those rebounds and their offense was the best it's ever been. The Knicks couldn't catch a break on offense and were consistently 1&done.

Reggie Evans isn't an example you want to cite, because of how he is such a 1 sided player. The only thing he does well is rebounding. To build a contender, you need guys that fill multiple roles. What role does Bargs fill other than scoring on this team?

[BOOMbip]

Plus since when is a calf muscle injury, and that's what it was... a calf muscle now being put into the same injury category as a knee or back injury. Because when someone compares it to Bynum or Howard, that's what they are doing. A calf strain can keep someone out of play and can be troublesome if it's not allowed to heal properly before playing on it again but it's not anything like a knee injury that requires surgery and will forever be an issue. Not the same, not even close, null point.

Plus when he first injured the calf he was shooting a career high fg% and was rebounding at a higher % than he had every before. When he returned his role had changed because of the emergence of Ed Davis and his production suffered before he went out again with the recurring injury, which may or may not have recurred because of the extended minutes he was given right away.

[Knicksfan20]

I don't know exactly what the Knicks plans for Barg is but with his talent and skill set along with what they gave up for him, namely the 1st, I can't see that they won't at least try to use his ability to score the ball. Especially when you consider their playoff downfall was largely responsible due to scoring and namely a second scorer and especially a big who could pull the defense out of the paint to give the Knicks room to drive to the basket without meeting a shot blocker.

To suggest that Barg can't put up 16-17ppg as a second option getting 12-13fga would to be more unreasonable to than suggest it's possible. You don't have to go as far as to say it's probable, just possible and not an unrealistic possibility. Undoubtedly we hope he's healthy and stays that way but if he is it doesn't make any sense that the Knicks wouldn't play him good minutes and give him the opportunity to score, if they don't it's a waste of an opportunity and a traded 1st round draft pick.

The most efficient he's ever been is 17 points on 14 shots so you're pretty much saying this year is going to be a career year for Bargs, despite Bargs getting progressively worse due to injuries.

While being the only capable scorer (this was before Derozan I believe, and Derozan also doesn't space the floor if he was there) so he was the raptors only scorer and he faced doubles all the time. True or false? So you don't think being on the floor with Melo would open up his game for much more open opportunities and one on one mismatches?

I'd say he has a good chance to have a career year efficiency wise, because he's surrounded by players who can score the ball and who can also spread the floor.

[BOOMbip]

So the Heat are an example of how putting all the attention on how well one player, as some are doing with Barg, rebounds is not truly accurate because if the team and most notably the wing players rebound can make up for it? I agree, if rebounding is a team goal and everybody does it one player doesn't get all the blame. The Knicks didn't lose the series to the Pacers only because of rebounding, it largely was because of shooting so badly, which coincidentally made the rebounding gap look bigger since the Pacers gobbled up alot of easy defensive rebounds.

[BOOMbip]

I don't know exactly what the Knicks plans for Barg is but with his talent and skill set along with what they gave up for him, namely the 1st, I can't see that they won't at least try to use his ability to score the ball. Especially when you consider their playoff downfall was largely responsible due to scoring and namely a second scorer and especially a big who could pull the defense out of the paint to give the Knicks room to drive to the basket without meeting a shot blocker.

To suggest that Barg can't put up 16-17ppg as a second option getting 12-13fga would to be more unreasonable to than suggest it's possible. You don't have to go as far as to say it's probable, just possible and not an unrealistic possibility. Undoubtedly we hope he's healthy and stays that way but if he is it doesn't make any sense that the Knicks wouldn't play him good minutes and give him the opportunity to score, if they don't it's a waste of an opportunity and a traded 1st round draft pick.

The most efficient he's ever been is 17 points on 14 shots so you're pretty much saying this year is going to be a career year for Bargs, despite Bargs getting progressively worse due to injuries.

If you want to call 17ppg on 14fga a 'career year' then it very much is possible for him to attain that in that role as second scorer. You characterizing his play as 'progressively worse' even though he had career highs after that and accrediting to only injuries is more opinion based nonsense but if you want to keep doing that you can very well do it but know full well that it's not facts and it only contribute to my lulz on your behalf.

[DLTGWH]

They were in the regular season. However, rebounding in the playoff is a whole different story. They were killed on the glass in the Pacers series, and that is what did them in. The Pacers scored off those rebounds and their offense was the best it's ever been. The Knicks couldn't catch a break on offense and were consistently 1&done.

Reggie Evans isn't an example you want to cite, because of how he is such a 1 sided player. The only thing he does well is rebounding. To build a contender, you need guys that fill multiple roles. What role does Bargs fill other than scoring on this team?

Reggie Evans is a elite rebounder and solid defender. 2 things that according to you should make him coveted. Hes clearly not. Asik also is elite defensively and rebounding. Houston just replaced him with another guy who rebounds and plays defense, and is rumored to be shopping him. Hes not a core player either according to Houston and Chicago.

It doesnt matter what else Bargnani does. He needs to score efficiently, defend his man adequately and create space for Melo under the basket. Hes never going to be confused with Dennis Rodman but neither was Novitski. The Knicks arent asking him to be. They need him to SCORE. While not being a Steve Novak level liability on the other end.

[JustaKnickFan]

Plus since when is a calf muscle injury, and that's what it was... a calf muscle now being put into the same injury category as a knee or back injury. Because when someone compares it to Bynum or Howard, that's what they are doing. A calf strain can keep someone out of play and can be troublesome if it's not allowed to heal properly before playing on it again but it's not anything like a knee injury that requires surgery and will forever be an issue. Not the same, not even close, null point.

Plus when he first injured the calf he was shooting a career high fg% and was rebounding at a higher % than he had every before. When he returned his role had changed because of the emergence of Ed Davis and his production suffered before he went out again with the recurring injury, which may or may not have recurred because of the extended minutes he was given right away.

The thing is, his injuries are consistently occurring, and are getting worse. He's getting more and more banged up and it's becoming obvious. He can barely play 30 games now. Let's face it, we traded a very injury prone Camby for a very injury prone Bargs.

His role changed to an off the bench scorer which he did poorly. Anyway, it's never a good sign when an injury continues to plague a player.

[BOOMbip]

I don't know exactly what the Knicks plans for Barg is but with his talent and skill set along with what they gave up for him, namely the 1st, I can't see that they won't at least try to use his ability to score the ball. Especially when you consider their playoff downfall was largely responsible due to scoring and namely a second scorer and especially a big who could pull the defense out of the paint to give the Knicks room to drive to the basket without meeting a shot blocker.

To suggest that Barg can't put up 16-17ppg as a second option getting 12-13fga would to be more unreasonable to than suggest it's possible. You don't have to go as far as to say it's probable, just possible and not an unrealistic possibility. Undoubtedly we hope he's healthy and stays that way but if he is it doesn't make any sense that the Knicks wouldn't play him good minutes and give him the opportunity to score, if they don't it's a waste of an opportunity and a traded 1st round draft pick.

Understood points.

I honestly dont know why they traded for Bargnani, i really cannot think of a logical reason, unless the "second scorer" report was actually true.

Most know I dont like him as a basketball player, but I'd love to eat the crow as a fan of the team above all.

I realistically cant see him getting that many attempt next to Melo without a huge scaling back from melo and a high increase of pace, and to be able to collect 17 points off such attempts would indicate an efficiency bargnani has rarely shown....one year of his career to be accurate.

For me, history supercedes the hope of something rare becoming the norm.

I didn't like his as a player either and still have an issue with him but I'm not going to let my personal distaste of him and his game cloud my honest assessment of the potential both in upside or downside. Regardless of whether he becomes what exactly the Knicks need or not he will always remain the player with the most punchable doofus face.... but that's just my opinion, of course there might be others with more punchable faces.

Although history does tell us he became better and better while also being relatively efficient as a clear cut second option behind Bosh. The roles were much more defined and established for him and his team mates so to conclude he might flourish in Ny behind a clear #1 option in Melo could be possible. That wouldn't be hoping for rare, that's seeing a potential norm possible in NY.

[JustaKnickFan]

They were in the regular season. However, rebounding in the playoff is a whole different story. They were killed on the glass in the Pacers series, and that is what did them in. The Pacers scored off those rebounds and their offense was the best it's ever been. The Knicks couldn't catch a break on offense and were consistently 1&done.

Reggie Evans isn't an example you want to cite, because of how he is such a 1 sided player. The only thing he does well is rebounding. To build a contender, you need guys that fill multiple roles. What role does Bargs fill other than scoring on this team?

Reggie Evans is a elite rebounder and solid defender. 2 things that according to you should make him coveted. Hes clearly not. Asik also is elite defensively and rebounding. Houston just replaced him with another guy who rebounds and plays defense, and is rumored to be shopping him. Hes not a core player either according to Houston and Chicago.

It doesnt matter what else Bargnani does. He needs to score efficiently, defend his man adequately and create space for Melo under the basket. Hes never going to be confused with Dennis Rodman but neither was Novitski. The Knicks arent asking him to be. They need him to SCORE. While not being a Steve Novak level liability on the other end.

Reggie Evans isn't a solid defender. Just ask Nets fans if you don't believe me. Tyson Chandler is elite defensively and rebounding, and it got him a ring. Those guys are important.

Bargnani is going to replace Novak's role, but the Knicks don't need one. They need a second option, and Bargs IS NOT a second option. If you don't believe me, I'd love to sig bet you on it. He won't defend his man adequately because his help defense will be so bad he won't have a man. He'll be lost and giving layup lines to the opposing team. He'll be a pretty bad liability on the other end as well. Maybe not Novak bad, but still very bad.

[DLTGWH]

We have Tyson Chandler. What has his rebounding and defense done for us?

Its pretty clear you dont like Bargnani. Maybe he'll be injured and be a complete bust. But please limit your use of blanket statements. Basketball isnt played in a vacuum.

Bargnani on the Knicks may very likely will produce different results than Bargnani on the Raptors. He has some useful tool which if used properly can produce positive results.

[BOOMbip]

Hey I love Tyson too but his defense isn't 'elite', I'm sorry Mr DPOY, it's just not. The guy has a serious issue with not even trying to block shots, he does sometimes sure, but I just shook my head at the number of times he just stands there with his arms up without even reacting to the shot.... same thing we got from David Lee for years.

Also Tyson's man on defense proved to be suspect all too often last year. It seems his best defensive attribute is being the quarterback of the defense and communicating to his team mates so the team plays better defense, not him actually being an 'elite defender'.

He's very good, better than most but man his lack of shot blocking just ticked me off to no end last season. Tyson the 'elite defender' has a career average of 1.3bpg while the pathetic Barg sports a career ave of 1bpg....so.... maybe Barg can bring something to the defensive side of the ball.

On that note, a player's help defense is usually a product of a good team defensive game plan. So when people say Barg has bad help defense part of that might be the fact that the Raptors didn't have a great team defense plan. He blocks a few shots and he's pretty good with man defense so it's possible that given the Knicks focus on team defense better might improve his help defense..... of course some people just can't be helped.... yes I'm looking at you STAT.

[strangespot]

Plus since when is a calf muscle injury, and that's what it was... a calf muscle now being put into the same injury category as a knee or back injury. Because when someone compares it to Bynum or Howard, that's what they are doing. A calf strain can keep someone out of play and can be troublesome if it's not allowed to heal properly before playing on it again but it's not anything like a knee injury that requires surgery and will forever be an issue. Not the same, not even close, null point.

Plus when he first injured the calf he was shooting a career high fg% and was rebounding at a higher % than he had every before. When he returned his role had changed because of the emergence of Ed Davis and his production suffered before he went out again with the recurring injury, which may or may not have recurred because of the extended minutes he was given right away.

The thing is, his injuries are consistently occurring, and are getting worse. He's getting more and more banged up and it's becoming obvious. He can barely play 30 games now. Let's face it, we traded a very injury prone Camby for a very injury prone Bargs.

His role changed to an off the bench scorer which he did poorly. Anyway, it's never a good sign when an injury continues to plague a player.

He is actually not even that injury prone, the calf injury was his firs which kept him out for a longer period (and he was out longer than he should have been only because the coach was impatient and played him on one leg) The elbow thorn legament injury of last year occured after he fell on his elbow, that was unfortunate and its something that can happen to any player. I guess we'll see in the Euro championsship this summer if either of the two still bother him.

[JustaKnickFan]

We have Tyson Chandler. What has his rebounding and defense done for us?

Its pretty clear you dont like Bargnani. Maybe he'll be injured and be a complete bust. But please limit your use of blanket statements. Basketball isnt played in a vacuum.

Bargnani on the Knicks may very likely will produce different results than Bargnani on the Raptors. He has some useful tool which if used properly can produce positive results.

Well obviously you need more to win the title than just a great center and SF/PF. A player that can play like Chandler (Mavericks one) is a very valuable piece for any title contender.

I'm not using blanket statements. I've been telling you guys the facts about Bargs and have been using realistic assumptions along with the facts. 4-19 start with him is a fact. Him struggling to score when he returned to the lineup in a lesser role is also a fact. The team then tried to coddle him and start him again. He continued to struggle. Him being one of the worst rebounding 7fters in history is a fact. Lastly, him being an awful help defender is a fact.

I dislike Bargnani's play style. I have nothing against him personally and as a Knicks fan, hope he succeeds with the Knicks. However, I doubt it.

Lastly, yeah there's always a possibility that that he'll produce different than on the Raptors , but it's a very slim possibility. He also has some negative tools, and has never fared well in the playoffs. Just sayin.

[BOOMbip]

No it's not a slim possibility... but your doubting he has any success with the Knicks leads you to believe it's slim. Confirmation bias confirmed.

[Context]

They were in the regular season. However, rebounding in the playoff is a whole different story. They were killed on the glass in the Pacers series, and that is what did them in. The Pacers scored off those rebounds and their offense was the best it's ever been. The Knicks couldn't catch a break on offense and were consistently 1&done.

Reggie Evans isn't an example you want to cite, because of how he is such a 1 sided player. The only thing he does well is rebounding. To build a contender, you need guys that fill multiple roles. What role does Bargs fill other than scoring on this team?

Reggie Evans is a elite rebounder and solid defender. 2 things that according to you should make him coveted. Hes clearly not. Asik also is elite defensively and rebounding. Houston just replaced him with another guy who rebounds and plays defense, and is rumored to be shopping him. Hes not a core player either according to Houston and Chicago.

It doesnt matter what else Bargnani does. He needs to score efficiently, defend his man adequately and create space for Melo under the basket. Hes never going to be confused with Dennis Rodman but neither was Novitski. The Knicks arent asking him to be. They need him to SCORE. While not being a Steve Novak level liability on the other end.

And1 first of all...

And for the love of god! Why is the bold so hard to understand? I just don't know how to express my frustration related to this without insulting anyone...something that I don't want to do...

I will say this - this trade has reminded me of why I once served "crow" to posters. Some of you can be down right abusive and arrogant when pushing ur agendas... And it plants seeds for the "I told you so" mentality to come back raging and what will happen then? The same camp that was relentlessly abusive and arrogant will complain about...