BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani

[JustaKnickFan]

You're talking about Isaiah Thomas and Donnie Walsh now bro.

Could we please keep the discussion to the present regime.

?

Didnt Grunwald just trade away 3 for Bargs? And he gave away 2 to get Camby and a think he forked over 1 in the three team deal for Tyson.

Thats 6 picks in two yeras.

I don't understand why you think we are building or are still constructing this team.

We are what we are at this point.

We just won 54 games and finished 2nd in the conference. The time for concerning ourselves with what happens 4 years from now is OVER.

Because no matter what, the future will eventually become a reality. If the Knicks want to set themselves for a crappy future, then that crappy future will eventually become a reality. So who if you're in 4th place now, why set yourself to be in last place later?

Anyway, the Knicks had some regular season success, but that doesn't mean much when you're bounced handily in the 2nd round of the playoffs and struggled to beat a Boston team that knew they were done. You don't waste picks to improve laterally, and that's a shortsighted move the Knicks have been known to make. If you want to get rid of picks you either cash in your picks to significantly upgrade your team to contender status (GSW, Brooklyn), or gather them to eventually use them to cash in on a franchise piece (Houston).

[JustaKnickFan]

It's tough to judge 2nd round talent now, when they've barely been in the league and none of the Europeans have come over. For instance, I've seen Acy and he will at the very least be a solid backup for the Raptors but didn't get playing time because of the Bargs/Ed Davis problem at PF.

For better reference, use an older draft like the 2008 one.

Dragic
Asik
Chalmers
Pek
Mbah a Moute
DeAndre Jordan (overpaid but he's still alright as a center)

Have all become solid NBA starters. That number will only rise with the increased attention foreign basketball players are getting.

But many 2nd rounders rarely stick with the team that originally drafted them.
A) Because they sucked
B) Because they became good players and the team couldn't retain them
C) Bad fit and they hit free agency and blossom in another situation.

However, the thing is that these picks are value, and produce great players.

As Thugger said, winning teams value 2nd rounders, and that's why teams like the Heat, Spurs, Pacers, and Grizzlies go after 2nd round talent while the Knicks trade away 2nd rounders and go after established NBA players.

Smh I'm tired of hearing about these teams valuing 2nd rounders. Most of the 2nd rounder players contributing on these teams were acquired through free agency and trades. I can make the same statement of no team in the league values undrafted free agents than the Knicks. It wouldn't make that statement any more true than the previous.[/quote]
The Heat made a move to get into the 2nd round.

The Spurs are consistently looking for guys to improve their team in the 2nd round.

It's obvious both these teams value 2nd round picks, and it's paid off. What more evidence do you need to conclude that 2nd round picks are valuable. Chalmers and Ginobli came from 2nd round picks and stayed on their respective teams.

[god shammgod]

i should have just left that whole 3 picks thing alone.

[mamadontcry]

?

Didnt Grunwald just trade away 3 for Bargs? And he gave away 2 to get Camby and a think he forked over 1 in the three team deal for Tyson.

Thats 6 picks in two yeras.

I don't understand why you think we are building or are still constructing this team.

We are what we are at this point.

We just won 54 games and finished 2nd in the conference. The time for concerning ourselves with what happens 4 years from now is OVER.

Because no matter what, the future will eventually become a reality. If the Knicks want to set themselves for a crappy future, then that crappy future will eventually become a reality. So who if you're in 4th place now, why set yourself to be in last place later?

Anyway, the Knicks had some regular season success, but that doesn't mean much when you're bounced handily in the 2nd round of the playoffs and struggled to beat a Boston team that knew they were done. You don't waste picks to improve laterally, and that's a shortsighted move the Knicks have been known to make. If you want to get rid of picks you either cash in your picks to significantly upgrade your team to contender status (GSW, Brooklyn), or gather them to eventually use them to cash in on a franchise piece (Houston).

When you had a season with 54 wins, you try to keep the core and add something to it. You try to improve around your superstar. It's Melo team now, all in now, no tomorrow

[Thugger HBC]

i should have just left that whole 3 picks thing alone.

we dont even treat the draft like a booger.

trying to flick before we pick.

[StephNYKurry]

?

Didnt Grunwald just trade away 3 for Bargs? And he gave away 2 to get Camby and a think he forked over 1 in the three team deal for Tyson.

Thats 6 picks in two yeras.

I don't understand why you think we are building or are still constructing this team.

We are what we are at this point.

We just won 54 games and finished 2nd in the conference. The time for concerning ourselves with what happens 4 years from now is OVER.

Because no matter what, the future will eventually become a reality. If the Knicks want to set themselves for a crappy future, then that crappy future will eventually become a reality. So who if you're in 4th place now, why set yourself to be in last place later?

So what should the Knicks do?

Sit idle and wait for draft prospects in the 20's, 30's, and 40's to materialize?

If you want to suggest a blow up to me, then be my guest. It's a bit radical, but I don't think it's a terrible idea.

But while we have one of the best players in the game and two other $15M+ players on the roster, don't suggest to me that we should be concerning ourselves about the future. It's ALL about this upcoming season and the one following.

Bargnani may/may not be a lateral move and the chance that he isn't a lateral move makes this trade worthwhile.

There isn't anyone out there with this potential. Guys who can get 30+ on a night don't get acquired for scraps and that's essentially what we did. 2nd rounders...Schmecken Rounders. (Please don't misconstrue my posting of these videos for what I think he'll do on a nightly basis) The ability to do this on any given night, with a high side of being more consistent with these types of efforts, is good enough for me to make the deal.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_sQsntc3Xw[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXm7ec9mQCg[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MquoDEXN_Tg[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys-CK07WwPo[/youtube]

[JustaKnickFan]

?

Didnt Grunwald just trade away 3 for Bargs? And he gave away 2 to get Camby and a think he forked over 1 in the three team deal for Tyson.

Thats 6 picks in two yeras.

I don't understand why you think we are building or are still constructing this team.

We are what we are at this point.

We just won 54 games and finished 2nd in the conference. The time for concerning ourselves with what happens 4 years from now is OVER.

Because no matter what, the future will eventually become a reality. If the Knicks want to set themselves for a crappy future, then that crappy future will eventually become a reality. So who if you're in 4th place now, why set yourself to be in last place later?

Anyway, the Knicks had some regular season success, but that doesn't mean much when you're bounced handily in the 2nd round of the playoffs and struggled to beat a Boston team that knew they were done. You don't waste picks to improve laterally, and that's a shortsighted move the Knicks have been known to make. If you want to get rid of picks you either cash in your picks to significantly upgrade your team to contender status (GSW, Brooklyn), or gather them to eventually use them to cash in on a franchise piece (Houston).

When you had a season with 54 wins, you try to keep the core and add something to it. You try to improve around your superstar. It's Melo team now, all in now, no tomorrow[/quote]
Yeah, but you don't worsen your future to make a lateral at best move. Bargs doesn't make this team better than Indy, Chicago, or Miami.

[ezmoney707]

But many 2nd rounders rarely stick with the team that originally drafted them.
A) Because they sucked
B) Because they became good players and the team couldn't retain them
C) Bad fit and they hit free agency and blossom in another situation.

However, the thing is that these picks are value, and produce great players.

As Thugger said, winning teams value 2nd rounders, and that's why teams like the Heat, Spurs, Pacers, and Grizzlies go after 2nd round talent while the Knicks trade away 2nd rounders and go after established NBA players.

Smh I'm tired of hearing about these teams valuing 2nd rounders. Most of the 2nd rounder players contributing on these teams were acquired through free agency and trades. I can make the same statement of no team in the league values undrafted free agents than the Knicks. It wouldn't make that statement any more true than the previous.

The Heat made a move to get into the 2nd round.

The Spurs are consistently looking for guys to improve their team in the 2nd round.

It's obvious both these teams value 2nd round picks, and it's paid off. What more evidence do you need to conclude that 2nd round picks are valuable. Chalmers and Ginobli came from 2nd round picks and stayed on their respective teams.[/quote]
Ginobli is not the rule he is the exception.

Chalmers found himself in a good situation. Chalmers drafted to the Kings would be fighting for his career.

The Spurs and the Heat have had plenty of 2nd rounders that didn't stick or were traded.

I we are going to commend these teams for their commitment for looking for late round talent, why not give the Knicks credit in its current regime for looking for gems overseas or undrafted players that can contribute.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Picking up cheap players in free agency and trade is more reliable successful way to get contributing players than hoping for 2nd picks to stick.

[JustaKnickFan]

I don't understand why you think we are building or are still constructing this team.

We are what we are at this point.

We just won 54 games and finished 2nd in the conference. The time for concerning ourselves with what happens 4 years from now is OVER.

Because no matter what, the future will eventually become a reality. If the Knicks want to set themselves for a crappy future, then that crappy future will eventually become a reality. So who if you're in 4th place now, why set yourself to be in last place later?

So what should the Knicks do?

Sit idle and wait for draft prospects in the 20's, 30's, and 40's to materialize?

If you want to suggest a blow up to me, then be my guest. It's a bit radical, but I don't think it's a terrible idea.

But while we have one of the best players in the game and two other $15M+ players on the roster, don't suggest to me that we should be concerning ourselves about the future. It's ALL about this upcoming season and the one following.

Bargnani may/may not be a lateral move and the chance that he isn't a lateral move makes this trade worthwhile.

There isn't anyone out there with this potential. Guys who can get 30+ on a night don't get acquired for scraps and that's essentially what we did. 2nd rounders...Schmecken Rounders. (Please don't misconstrue my posting of these videos for what I think he'll do on a nightly basis) The ability to do this on any given night, with a high side of being more consistent with these types of efforts, is good enough for me to make the deal.

If the Knicks are going to trade picks, I'd have preferred to do it to clear cap space like GSW did so they can do a sign and trade. However, with the hole the Knicks dug themselves, I don't even think that's possible.

So, I'd say the Knicks just stand-pat and not worsen their future. Unless 1 first and 2 second rounders are getting rid of STAT, it's better to just hope STAT returns to form then waste picks on a guy who won't do anything for the team. Then, in a later year they can use those picks to allure a big time FA to sign with them in 2015.

Bargs has had his fair share of good games in his career, but that doesn't mean he's suddenly capable of dropping 40 each time he steps onto the court.

There's a reason Toronto was going to amnesty him, and it's because he won't normally do this. The norm is that he scores inefficiently, barely rebounds, and can't protect the rim.

So, while you're banking on Bargs potential (something NBA genius Bryan Colangelo has done for 7 years), I'll rather be realistic and say that this guy who can "get 30+ a night" is not worth it because he won't.

[StephNYKurry]

Yeah, but you don't worsen your future to make a lateral at best move. Bargs doesn't make this team better than Indy, Chicago, or Miami.

How could you say this:

1) Without seeing him play a minute of basketball in a Knick uniform

2) Knowing that he's scored 20 PPG in an NBA season

3) Knowing that he's 7 feet tall and as skilled as he is

Regardless of the negatives he brings with him, making the the comment that it's "a lateral move at best", is simply asinine. There's no way around it. There's nothing to support it and you're throwing crap against the wall to make it stick.

It's a form of logic that is simply ludicrous.

[JustaKnickFan]

However, the thing is that these picks are value, and produce great players.

As Thugger said, winning teams value 2nd rounders, and that's why teams like the Heat, Spurs, Pacers, and Grizzlies go after 2nd round talent while the Knicks trade away 2nd rounders and go after established NBA players.

Smh I'm tired of hearing about these teams valuing 2nd rounders. Most of the 2nd rounder players contributing on these teams were acquired through free agency and trades. I can make the same statement of no team in the league values undrafted free agents than the Knicks. It wouldn't make that statement any more true than the previous.

The Heat made a move to get into the 2nd round.

The Spurs are consistently looking for guys to improve their team in the 2nd round.

It's obvious both these teams value 2nd round picks, and it's paid off. What more evidence do you need to conclude that 2nd round picks are valuable. Chalmers and Ginobli came from 2nd round picks and stayed on their respective teams.

Ginobli is not the rule he is the exception.

Chalmers found himself in a good situation. Chalmers drafted to the Kings would be fighting for his career.

The Spurs and the Heat have had plenty of 2nd rounders that didn't stick or were traded.

I we are going to commend these teams for their commitment for looking for late round talent, why not give the Knicks credit in its current regime for looking for gems overseas or undrafted players that can contribute.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Picking up cheap players in free agency and trade is more reliable successful way to get contributing players than hoping for 2nd picks to stick.[/quote]
Here's the difference, though.

2nd rounders are young, have potential than proven FAs, and don't have multiple teams after them like undrafted FA do. Teams also can easily hang onto them.

When it comes to what the Knicks are doing, they can't even hang on to their "rookies" and undrafted players. Also doing the Knicks style isn't more reliable, because 29 other NBA teams can sign these cheap players in FA and in trades you're giving up something.

The Chalmers to the kings point you made helps prove my point, because it shows how much better 2nd round can be if put in a good situation like the Knicks have.

[Thugger HBC]

Ginobli is not the rule he is the exception.

Chalmers found himself in a good situation. Chalmers drafted to the Kings would be fighting for his career.

The Spurs and the Heat have had plenty of 2nd rounders that didn't stick or were traded.

I we are going to commend these teams for their commitment for looking for late round talent, why not give the Knicks credit in its current regime for looking for gems overseas or undrafted players that can contribute.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Picking up cheap players in free agency and trade is more reliable successful way to get contributing players than hoping for 2nd picks to stick.

You kinda lost me with this.

The Spurs are where they are because they value all their assets, they have decades of history in such.

Miami is an expansion team and has more rings than the "storied" franchise and they have done it through solid trades, free agency and the draft, and if you're gonna lose...lose hard.

We had a 100 page draft thread....why? because we know the team needs help and the draft is one method of such.

I know this thread is severely OT at this point, and maybe thats good as it takes away from the topic which most dont approve of.

Like I had said previously it's been a while for a trade that most dont like at all.

[TKF]

The difference between Yi and Marc Gasol.

Unless you really wanna debate a player better than a lotto pick can never be found later on.

There are hordes of examples.

The exception doesn't make the rule. You're arguing against math. You're employing the same logic the schmucks who spend their hard earned money on lottery tickets every week do.

That a late round pick, or a second rounder CAN turn into a good player is not in dispute. But it is a long-shot. There is little disputing this math.

The entire draft is a long shot.,,,it's all about how well you scout and the development of their player.

Finding a 2nd rounder that is rotational is not as uncommon as you think.

This thinking is exactly why the Knicks trade their picks for established players then get beat in the playoffs by players they probably could have drafted.

this is a very good post thugger and I can't find the other post you made about the value of draft picks, but I agree 100%

Some keep thinking that if you don't find a "star" in the draft then the picks aren't valuable.. well lets keep it real.. Stars are hard to find and you are lucky to find them... but you can find, with good scouting good role players, guys like splitter, chalmers, etc... these are the guys that help teams win, and better yet, you get them on the cheap through the draft instead of paying twice as much for vet players to do the same thing..

when was the last time the knicks ever extended any of their draft picks.. I bet if people look it up, you will almost have to go 20 years back....

not good...

[JustaKnickFan]

Yeah, but you don't worsen your future to make a lateral at best move. Bargs doesn't make this team better than Indy, Chicago, or Miami.

How could you say this:

1) Without seeing him play a minute of basketball in a Knick uniform

2) Knowing that he's scored 20 PPG in an NBA season

3) Knowing that he's 7 feet tall and as skilled as he is

Regardless of the negatives he brings with him, making the the comment that it's "a lateral move at best", is simply asinine. There's no way around it. There's nothing to support it and you're throwing crap against the wall to make it stick.

It's a form of logic that is simply ludicrous.

21 points on 17 shots. Not something to hang your hat on. I've seen him play plenty in the NBA, and I think he's trash. I've stated why, and you've stated why you disagree so this is going nowhere.

Anyway I feel like I'm being realistic. If you want I'd love to make a sig bet with you that if the Knicks meet the Pacers/Bulls/Heat in the playoff, they will lose to them.

[StephNYKurry]

21 points on 17 shots. Not something to hang your hat on. I've seen him play plenty in the NBA, and I think he's trash. I've stated why, and you've stated why you disagree so this is going nowhere.

Anyway I feel like I'm being realistic. If you want I'd love to make a sig bet with you that if the Knicks meet the Pacers/Bulls/Heat in the playoff, they will lose to them.

Huh?

The Knicks are gonna lose to the Heat regardless and are about a 50/50 shot to lose to either the Bulls/Pacers who are also assuredly going to lost to the Heat.

With that being said:

1) I ain't into that whole "sig-bet" thing

2) I wouldn't even put money on that seeing as you're trying to stack the deck.

Once again, it's about the CHANCE that he'll make a contribution that could help them beat one of/all of those teams. Don't understand why you don't get that.

It's not even that most of us love Bargnani, it's that you folks are so diametrically opposed to him, without acknowledging that he actually does have some qualities that are desirable and teams like the Bulls and Warriors can vouch for that. Y'all just stick on his negatives without acknowledging what he does well.

Y'all don't like him, but don't try to make it seem like it's 100% based in logic, because reason doesn't support your stance whatsoever.

[ctorres]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baske ... -1.1392030

To friends and family members who have spoken to Bargnani since last Monday when the Knicks agreed to acquire the 7-foot forward, they all see a change in the player that has been described as aloof, moody and, worst of all, apathetic. He is more upbeat and is encouraged to get a second chance and change of scenery. It’s as if Bargnani is naïve to the fact that New Yorkers can be every bit as vicious when one of their own is underperforming.

“And they should be,” says former Knicks coach Jeff Van Gundy. “But New York is also a great place for second chances. And that’s what Bargnani is getting. New York is the place where he can rebuild his career. Or it can be the place where his spirit gets crushed. And there may be no turning back.”

“He needed a change,” says one of Bargnani’s former coaches in Toronto, who would not speak on the record because the trade doesn’t become official until July 10th when the NBA moratorium ends. “He is better than he showed. I think he will do well. He has skills.”

“He was as frustrated as anyone,” says another Raptors coach. “It’s never a good time to have injuries but his injuries also seem to come at the worst time. This trade will be good for him. It’s been seven years. He needed a change.”

“He has never defended or rebounded with a passion or a purpose,” Van Gundy says. “But, he will give the Knicks 3-point shooting. He can handle the ball. He’s still a very good offensive player. Plus, he gives them insurance in case Amar’e (Stoudemire) goes down. Considering what they gave up, I think it’s a good move.”

“You look at that season and he was starting to come around,” says one Raptors coach. “But then there were a few injuries. The fans were getting on him and Andrea is a very quiet guy. I think he was holding a lot of that frustration in.”

After the Knicks and Raptors agreed to the deal, long-time Toronto columnist Michael Grange wrote that the Bargnani tenure was a failure “primarily because Bargnani was a franchise talent who lacked the drive to be a franchise player.” The same things were once said about Eddy Curry.

“This idea that New York will only embrace superstars is false,” Van Gundy says. “They like tough, physical players who play hard.”

The Knicks believe they have a good support system in place to help Bargnani succeed. Two of his former coaches in Toronto, Jim Todd and Dave Hopla, are on Mike Woodson’s staff. Anthony is the designated face of the franchise which should take some pressure off Bargnani.

[ezmoney707]

Ginobli is not the rule he is the exception.

Chalmers found himself in a good situation. Chalmers drafted to the Kings would be fighting for his career.

The Spurs and the Heat have had plenty of 2nd rounders that didn't stick or were traded.

I we are going to commend these teams for their commitment for looking for late round talent, why not give the Knicks credit in its current regime for looking for gems overseas or undrafted players that can contribute.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Picking up cheap players in free agency and trade is more reliable successful way to get contributing players than hoping for 2nd picks to stick.

You kinda lost me with this.

The Spurs are where they are because they value all their assets, they have decades of history in such.

Miami is an expansion team and has more rings than the "storied" franchise and they have done it through solid trades, free agency and the draft, and if you're gonna lose...lose hard.

We had a 100 page draft thread....why? because we know the team needs help and the draft is one method of such.

I know this thread is severely OT at this point, and maybe thats good as it takes away from the topic which most dont approve of.

Like I had said previously it's been a while for a trade that most dont like at all.

But at the end of the day think about what your arguing now. We were terrible for years because of poor management. We have been digging ourselves out of holes for years.
When we get ahead of the 8 ball we take a step back in some capacity.

With this current team it's downfall has been the contract of Amare and his health. It forces your hand to go all in or sit back without any improvement or drastic measure blow it up. We have to give up these picks because we have a man making 20 million dollars that can't contribute.

Should we have use our amnesty on Amare instead of Billups yeah probably, but it's all hindsight.

If Bargs plays to his potential those picks will look like cupcakes. We have to take risk with our position.

[TrueWarrior]

Ginobli is not the rule he is the exception.

Chalmers found himself in a good situation. Chalmers drafted to the Kings would be fighting for his career.

The Spurs and the Heat have had plenty of 2nd rounders that didn't stick or were traded.

If we are going to commend these teams for their commitment for looking for late round talent, why not give the Knicks credit in its current regime for looking for gems overseas or undrafted players that can contribute.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Picking up cheap players in free agency and trade is more reliable successful way to get contributing players than hoping for 2nd picks to stick.

Yup. Mozgov, Big Purp, Lin, Pablo, and Cope are all guys we picked up in the last few years either off the scrap heap or overseas. We've been pretty good on that front. Maybe we didnt manage them as assets as much as we could have but all those guys are easily better than most 2nd rounders.

We could always buy 2nd rounders on draft night as long we have have the money, which we didnt have this year, and then flip them on a draft day trade if people are worried about them as assets. The 1st rounder is the only one that hurts for me, but with Denver signing JJ Hickson to a 3 year deal I dont think they're going to be trying to tank anytime soon, and neither will we.

[JustaKnickFan]

21 points on 17 shots. Not something to hang your hat on. I've seen him play plenty in the NBA, and I think he's trash. I've stated why, and you've stated why you disagree so this is going nowhere.

Anyway I feel like I'm being realistic. If you want I'd love to make a sig bet with you that if the Knicks meet the Pacers/Bulls/Heat in the playoff, they will lose to them.

Huh?

The Knicks are gonna lose to the Heat regardless and are about a 50/50 shot to lose to either the Bulls/Pacers who are also assuredly going to lost to the Heat.

With that being said:

1) I ain't into that whole "sig-bet" thing

2) I wouldn't even put money on that seeing as you're trying to stack the deck.

Once again, it's about the CHANCE that he'll make a contribution that could help them beat one of/all of those teams. Don't understand why you don't get that.

It's not even that most of us love Bargnani, it's that you folks are so diametrically opposed to him, without acknowledging that he actually does have some qualities that are desirable and teams like the Bulls and Warriors can vouch for that. Y'all just stick on his negatives without acknowledging what he does well.

Y'all don't like him, but don't try to make it seem like it's 100% based in logic, because reason doesn't support your stance whatsoever.

But why waste picks on this very slim chance. You guys act like there's a real possbility he goes back to dropping 20 points, which he needed about 17 shots to do so. He's not getting the shots, and he's definitely not getting the points.

The thing about Bargnani is yeah he scores....but he does it inefficiently. He also can't rebound or play help D.

Reason supports my stance plenty. If you want to argue that Bargs is efficient, can rebound well, and can play help D well then go ahead, but logic won't be on your side.

I don't acknowledge the stuff he does well, because he barely does that stuff well.

[TrueWarrior]

The Spurs are where they are because they value all their assets, they have decades of history in such.

Miami is an expansion team and has more rings than the "storied" franchise and they have done it through solid trades, free agency and the draft, and if you're gonna lose...lose hard.

We had a 100 page draft thread....why? because we know the team needs help and the draft is one method of such.

I know this thread is severely OT at this point, and maybe thats good as it takes away from the topic which most dont approve of.

Like I had said previously it's been a while for a trade that most dont like at all.

The Spurs are where they are because they tanked for Duncan.

The Heat are where they are because Riley went against his gut and chose Wade over Kaman at the last minute after calling Wade's and Kaman's trainer on draft day, and then signed friccin LeBron James.

And I dont think most are against this trade at all. Just seems like a vocal minority to me. It was a pretty even trade. One that could sway in either direction depending on how Bargs does and where that 2016 pick ends up. If you dont like Bargs thats fine. Maybe we could have gotten somebody better who knows, but unless we added Shump to that package I highly doubt it.

We still have a lot of capspace and a draft pick in 2015 so its not like our future is ruined here.