The Tank Debate Thread

[RaptorNews]

Because the GMs were incompetent boobs.

When you draft a player, you can hold onto them for 8 years if you want to.

Those players would have never left Toronto if we were a contender.

[C_Money]

Tanking is so stupid. Thank god its not going to happen with us. I can't believe people actually want to sit through another season like that.

So your telling me you would rather sit threw a 35 win season where the team will miss the playoffs and have a 10th pick then a 25 win season and the team have a 5th pick? The teams sucks! Top 6 is a lock with Heat, Bulls, Pacers, Nets, Knicks. Then you have the Cavs, Pistons, Wizards, Bucks, Raptors fighting it out for 2 spots. Then to lose in 4 or 5 games when they make it. Or we could tank and get a potential talent that is just as good as Val or better. Do you really think this team can even compete in the playoffs?

The offseason just started pal. There's another 2 months to make roster moves.

[Chevy Chase]

Dkb33 - as I stated in the OP, this was not a place meant to debate whether or not to tank. Please troll elsewhere.

I think the anti-tanking party has come to a consensus that DD should be traded at a minimum.

We want to follow the Indy, Utah, Denver mold of competing year in/out and hoping to land the right FA or star through trade of accumulated assets, rather, than tanking for a Bosh level talent who we will then hope can carry us to stardom.

[wtfbosh]

Dkb33 - as I stated in the OP, this was not a place meant to debate whether or not to tank. Please troll elsewhere.

I think the anti-tanking party has come to a consensus that DD should be traded at a minimum.

We want to follow the Indy, Utah, Denver mold of competing year in/out and hoping to land the right FA or star through trade of accumulated assets, rather, than tanking for a Bosh level talent who we will then hope can carry us to stardom.

Denver (Drafting Melo top 3 then trading him for assets) and Utah (drafting D-Will top 3 then trading him) accumulated assets...through tanking. Indy's just drafted well. None of those teams have won anything by the way. A better example would've been the Pistons but they had a team loaded with guys who were All-Stars. This is a team with one borderline all-star, one player with star potential and role-players. The Raps have a long way to go.

[orangutooth]

ok anti-tank, what's the plan then?

we keep this team and finish in 8th place then we get swept? then what's the plan? we finish in 8th place two years in a row then all of a sudden top free agents are signing in toronto? or do you want to finish in 8th place twice, have our mediocre players like lowry and gay leave and then tank in 2016 when the draft class is not as good?

somebody PLEASE tell me how to make this into even a second round team if we're not gonna tank and start from beginning because i'm dying to know.

[StMikes31]

The justification for a re-tool is so stupid and hardly makes sense. Just buy looking at the facts and reading between the lines, it's obvious we aren't pushing forward.

Masai is just waiting for the perfect re-build deal and we could see something in the next 5 days, like he said.

If he really wanted to push forward, why would he even say "We aren't going to just dump our players for nothing". How come it's never "We have a great young and up and coming core that we intend to build around".

It's so clearly obvious what is going on here and Masai is playing the political hat in order not tip his cap and let the value of his guys increase.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

[Double Helix]

Whatever happens ill support. If we're trying to make it this year then I'm gonna be going to some games and cheering my heart out. If we go tank(which I support more) I'm also happy.

I'm glad there are fans like you out there. I would support a rebuild effort if Masai took it in that direction but I am pleased that he might give this group a chance before he makes up his mind.

18 years of basketball in Toronto and only 5 have been at .500 or better. We've been watching losing teams for so long and stared at so many mock drafts that the culture that surrounds the NBA draft now surpasses the actual basketball culture in this city. We have turned basketball into a board game where the goal is simply to have a top 5 player of the present era and we've done this because the draft is now what we know best. It's familiar. We feel we have control over it. Well, more control than building a winner trough unconventional ways anyway.

At a certain point the sport is lost and all that remains is a video game where nobody wants to see the next level and make a push forward without the assurance of doing every single thing perfect first and making sure that no money is spent until we're well on our way. When are we going to start acting like the billion dollar entity we are? When are Rogers and Bell going to put our money into the team and pay heavy into the tax the way the Knicks, Nets and so many other teams with rich owners have?

The perfectionist approach has its place, especially in small markets but these companies that bought our beloved teams have deep pockets and shouldn't be afraid to pay extra to build a winner in a top 4 market like this.

The teachers pension plan era is over. Let's start acting like it in ways that go beyond what we spend in the boardrooms. Let's be the team that the disenfranchised star wants to join, just as Deron Wiliams did the Nets (which has since been added to). Let's present ourselves to the league as the next Mavs or Nets. Let's make our 60 billion dollar owners seem like the next Cuban or Prokorov.

We are so used to functioning like a small market team that we are letting billionaire companies off the hook by only ever demanding the draft. They love that. That saves them money. This team won't start trading like big shots on talent until we hold them to the fire on it and we are letting them off too easy because we're used to it.

The biggest misnomer of Team Compete is that we don't understand the value of the draft. We do. We know that's where the stars are. We know they'll always be there. We just like many of the guys we have and were looking forward to seeing them compete before we rid ourselves of them for more losing seasons. We are willing to wait until later to rebuild.

[wtfbosh]

Damon Stoudamire - wanted to leave
Vince Carter (through trade) - wanted to leave
Tracy Mcgrady - wanted to leave
Chris Bosh - left

Andrea Bargnani - wanted to stay

Any other good player we had - we traded.

...what would be the result if we drafted another good player?

so...this team should draft poorly?

[hillbilly hare]

We draft
We can't hold onto stars
They bolt as soon as the rookie contract is done.
We cannot build through the draft.

Not true. The best player in franchise history, from Florida no less, re-signed for 6 (six!) big years.

His mean reasons: he loved TO, he loved how he was treated here (Vince Carter Day, awesome idea), he wanted to win and felt the team was ready to win.

Gleaned from this: players want max money, players want to be respected, players want to be in a good setting and on a good team, players want to win. Offer all that and guys will re-sign here.

[JYD]

We draft
We can't hold onto stars
They bolt as soon as the rookie contract is done.
We cannot build through the draft.

Ridiculous. Shrewd drafting and pick management, and value signings is the only way we can build something great. MLSE has the cash to spend on guys like MU and general salary, but we are a small market team for all intensive FA purposes..at least until we field a good team.

Steve Nash turned down big cash to come here, that's all you need to know. Well that and the fact that T-Mac is the only guy we drafted who bolted on us after his rookie deal, both Vince and Bosh stayed.

Draft good players, don't mortgage the future out of impatience, don't overspend on FAs, and you put yourself in a position to both keep your own stars and add other ones as FAs.

[dacrusha]

The time to tank was 2 years ago, the year that we drafted Val and he played overseas... the team should have been gutted that season and we should've had a top-3 pick at the very worst. Instead we ended up with useless Terrence Ross and, later, the addition of two tier-2 talents (Gay/Lowry) acquired to save BC's job.

Now, it's clear that the best use of our assets is to play out the string and see what they can do while Gay is still under contract, because there is zero chance of us getting lotto picks for 2014 in exchange for the assets we currently have (unless, of course, JV was put on the trading block). If JV has a break-out year and the team comes together and makes a decent playoff push, I can see MU building the roster from there.... similar to what he accomplished in Denver.

And if that doesn't work out, then the preliminary work towards a re-build has already been set in motion: a tell-tale sign of the long-term vision and direction this team would be taking is of the acquisition of that 2016 1st round pick. THAT is year-2 of the re-build if JV/Gay/Lowry/DD/Amir don't show serious signs of success this coming season.

If (as the tankers claim) the roster sucks and is not good enough to compete, then MU has a top-10 pick in the 2014 draft (along with two 2nd round picks), $40 million in expiring contracts to work with in 2014/2015, a seriously tanked roster for a top-3 pick in 2015 and two 1st round picks for 2016.

[Reignman]

Then STOP WATCHING PROFESSIONAL SPORTS you fkng softie.

Don't know if sarcastic.
If you only care about championship, did you ever enjoyed seeing the Raptors ?
And if OKC, Nuggets, Memphis, Pacers and Clippers don't win a championship in the next 10 years, would you call 'softies' the people who enjoyed to see them play ?

When VC was here, I LEGIT had hope we were down the path to win a title. Hell we were one shot away from the fkn EC FINALS! (finals 99.9% we had them bucks).

That is what I want, Pro-Tankers aren't saying nothing is worth it without a title, but going into the playoffs with 0 hope of winning vs a realistic shot at a title are two different things entirely.

Ask the bucks and ask the spurs fans how they felt going into the playoffs last year, bucks probably couldn't wait to get it over with. It is embarrassing to finally get nationally televised games and get blown out by 30, almost worse then not making the playoffs in the first place. I don't want to be the first round fodder LBJ and DWade showboat over while coasting to the second round.

News flash: The VC teams did not have a chance at beating the Lakers. They were a good team but only a fool thought they had any chance of beating the Lakers. In fact, any team from the East that would've made the playoffs would've been destroyed. Raps didn't have a chance, Sixers had no chance (as we saw) and the Bucks didn't have a chance. Those were the 3 best playoff teams from the East. They were all pretenders just like most teams every year. Even this past season, there were only 3 or 4 legit contenders, Miami/SAS/OKC and maybe the Pacers. I might even put Chicago in their next season if Rose comes back near 100%. Everyone else is a damn fraud.

In fact, you just made a point for those of us wanting to see what this team can do. VC's best team won only 47 games and got bounced in the 2nd round AND YOU ENJOYED IT. We hope MU can use the foundation of this team and build a team that can provide the type of playoff ball that the VC team did. That doesn't necessarily mean this exact core will be the ones to do it as MU might decide to make trades for better fits, or maybe trade some of our picks to add more talent or maybe consolidate some of our pieces for one better piece, etc. But that's exactly what we want, a playoff team we can enjoy watching.

[Reignman]

ok anti-tank, what's the plan then?

we keep this team and finish in 8th place then we get swept? then what's the plan? we finish in 8th place two years in a row then all of a sudden top free agents are signing in toronto? or do you want to finish in 8th place twice, have our mediocre players like lowry and gay leave and then tank in 2016 when the draft class is not as good?

somebody PLEASE tell me how to make this into even a second round team if we're not gonna tank and start from beginning because i'm dying to know.

Umm, lets leave the "crystal ball" analysis to the psychics.

1. We don't even know what the rest of the team will look like to start training camp. We still have a couple of holes on the bench that need to be filled.

2. We don't know how our young players/vets will play:
- Gay gets a full training camp with the team, had lasik and seems to have added weight
- Lowry finally "gets the keys", has lost weight, in a contract year and maybe he builds on the rhythm he started showing near the end of the season
- JV is entering his soph year and we have no clue what kind of leap he'll make
- Demar gets another summer to improve and may come back with a 3 ball
- Replaced 2 complete non-factors in Bargs/Fields with Psycho/healthy Fields
- Coach now has the summer to work on his play calling. He stated that last season they started with a completely Bargs-centric offense and had to make adjustments post-Rudy trade. Now he can focus on drilling the new offense (with Nurse's help) to fit this team
- Going back to a defensive approach like we showed 2 seasons ago

3. How will this team actually play on the court together and how do they stack up against the rest of the East. Hard to tell since other teams have also made changes, some for better and some for worse.

4. Where they end up in the standings. Maybe they fall on their face and MU goes in a completely different direction at the deadline, maybe the end up 6, 7 or 8. Avoiding Miami might have huge implications as we do match up well with some of the other teams like the Pacers or Knicks.

5. What happens after the season is over, do we make more improvements? Who do we draft in this "superstar" 2014 draft (if the draft is as good as everyone says we should get some talent in the middle of the draft). Do we extend / re-sign guys or do we look for other FAs? Internal growth after gaining some playoff experience?


See, this is why MU says everything is fluid. There's so many questions that we don't have the answers to that we'll slowly figure out as the season progresses.

This notion that "Oh, we'll finish 8th, get bounced by Miami and that's the only future we have" lacks any thought behind it and is the default answer for the tankers that can't think beyond tanking and praying/hoping on lottery luck, and then praying/hoping the player they pick will be great, then praying/hoping we can build the necessary supporting cast and then praying/hoping that team is good enough to beat teams like Miami.

It's fluid, we'll make moves as we find them necessary and the moves that make sense. It's that simple.

[And1Skip]

Can you explain to me how this team wins more then 35 games with the talent it has? If we had some All-Star talent in their primes then of coarse you try to win. The team is going to try to win with a BC core and a new bench. What the **** is the point of that? Keep BC if this is the team you want to put on the floor when a draft that may be the best in over a decade is on the horizon.

The point is...why don't you just give the current core a chance? What "if" one or two of the core makes the all-star team? If that happens, I don't want you to change your mind about our players..you should continue to route for other teams because you don't like the direction Raps are going. There are no anti-tankers against a tank when it makes sense to. If Raptors have no all-stars or all-star considerations by the break, then you blow it up..trade for picks..whatever you can get and tank by subtraction.

LIke how do these pro-tankers even operate in life when they cant even give people a chance - that's all this current core wants - a chance, while they are still together and young. And no, the last half of last season wasn't the chance due to injuries to Gay and JV and Lowry's season-long injuries. Let them go through training camp and first half of the season and see how they do. If they are not in a playoff spot by the break, there's definitely opportunities to tank. It's not hard to lose 10 games in a row..I've seen that from the Raptors. And don't say oh..Casey will not let them tank after the break..well, just fire him then if he doesn't cooperate - he's on last year of contract anyways and if the Raps aren't doing well at that time its a given he should be fired anyway.

The Raps didn't go into the 2002-2003 season wanting to "tank". They actually expected to be in contention. But they were horrible and then with some key "injuries" at the end of the year to VC and Alvin and AD, they were able to out-tank the Heat to get the 3rd worse record in the league. Unfortunately, we got the 4th pick.

[And1Skip]

Don't know if sarcastic.
If you only care about championship, did you ever enjoyed seeing the Raptors ?
And if OKC, Nuggets, Memphis, Pacers and Clippers don't win a championship in the next 10 years, would you call 'softies' the people who enjoyed to see them play ?

When VC was here, I LEGIT had hope we were down the path to win a title. Hell we were one shot away from the fkn EC FINALS! (finals 99.9% we had them bucks).

That is what I want, Pro-Tankers aren't saying nothing is worth it without a title, but going into the playoffs with 0 hope of winning vs a realistic shot at a title are two different things entirely.

Ask the bucks and ask the spurs fans how they felt going into the playoffs last year, bucks probably couldn't wait to get it over with. It is embarrassing to finally get nationally televised games and get blown out by 30, almost worse then not making the playoffs in the first place. I don't want to be the first round fodder LBJ and DWade showboat over while coasting to the second round.

News flash: The VC teams did not have a chance at beating the Lakers. They were a good team but only a fool thought they had any chance of beating the Lakers. In fact, any team from the East that would've made the playoffs would've been destroyed. Raps didn't have a chance, Sixers had no chance (as we saw) and the Bucks didn't have a chance. Those were the 3 best playoff teams from the East. They were all pretenders just like most teams every year. Even this past season, there were only 3 or 4 legit contenders, Miami/SAS/OKC and maybe the Pacers. I might even put Chicago in their next season if Rose comes back near 100%. Everyone else is a damn fraud.

In fact, you just made a point for those of us wanting to see what this team can do. VC's best team won only 47 games and got bounced in the 2nd round AND YOU ENJOYED IT. We hope MU can use the foundation of this team and build a team that can provide the type of playoff ball that the VC team did. That doesn't necessarily mean this exact core will be the ones to do it as MU might decide to make trades for better fits, or maybe trade some of our picks to add more talent or maybe consolidate some of our pieces for one better piece, etc. But that's exactly what we want, a playoff team we can enjoy watching.

I remember the 2001 playoffs VERY well..I went to 3 of those home games too in 2 series. I did not once expect to win the title. I did have hope that Raps will finally make it out of the first round but that was it. The fact that they got to 7 games with the Sixers was amazing and the thought of we were just 1 shot away from the East finals was heartbreaking - but any Raptors fan with a reasonable level of NBA knowledge did not expect to contend for the title. If we still had TMAC, then maybe. Our second option was ..well we didn't have one...sometimes it was AD, sometimes Alvin, and sometimes a rookie MoPete - that's not a team built to contend for the title vs Shaq/Kobe lakers.

The year after when we acquired Hakeem..there was actually some expectation that Raps would contend but obviously that didn't workout. However, the Raps were top 2-3 in the East (with Montross starting) until VC had a season ending injury - but we were 1-2 shots from getting out of the first round again in that playoffs without VC.

[CoachJReturns]

I'm strongly pro-tank, but as it stands this team doesn't have a hope in hell of finishing in the bottom 3. That being said, I'm fine if Masai decides to just keep accumulating assets and perhaps finds a way to move up a couple spots in next year's draft. Right now we are in that 7-11 category our CEO said he wants out of.
With the signing of Smith, the Pistons look to be ahead of us again, at least on paper, so I think a lot will come down to whether Cleveland can finally have a healthy full season of Kyrie. If they do, we probably miss the playoffs by just a couple games and land in the 9th spot, drafting at around 12th.
I've started looking at the next couple drafts after this year's and so far the 2015 draft is underwhelming. There are multiple ways to win, but ultimately we need to land an all-star or two. Typically, that means drafting at least one to make your team an attractive destination. I like Val a lot, but I don't necessarily see him being that regular all-star who makes others want to sign with his team. Right now, all we can do is be patient and let Masai continue to be shrewd and patient in all his transactions until the team has enough quality assets to make a big move. Maybe a team might be willing to give up something of great value next year for Rudy's huge expiring contract. A lot of team's could use 19 million in additional cap space. Anyway, if we're going to make a run for the 8th seed, we should at least trade Demar, if he shows no significant improvement in his 3 point shooting. We need the players in the starting lineup to at least compliment eachother.

[DG88]

From Masai's presser yesterday I think I understand what direction he wants to take and it's a wait and see direction. Probably not what most people want to here because they want either playoffs or tanking. For him that's a win win because in either case you get something good out of it for the team. If this team makes the playoffs then our assets value will be very high and it would allow us to retool on the fly like he did with Denver and make a perennial playoff team that stays young but has room to grow. If the season goes awry then we get a high draft pick in the best draft since 2003. Giving us a shot at Wiggins, Randle, Smart, Gordon, Parker, Exum, and the Harrison twins. I'm leaning more towards tanking but I'll be on board on whatever Masai deems necessary to make the team better.

[witnessraps]

i am officially making it official that I am officially part of the official ant-tank thread officially

[Double Helix]

Gents,

Ignore the troll posts as much as you can. This is your thread. You'll be able to tell within a sentence if they're just tankers trolling you and if they are don't even finish reading what they wrote. Just move onto the next post until it's somebody that you want to engage with.

If the trollers become insulting or consistently off topic then report them to the mod team who'll see that as a violation of the TOS. Threads should always stay on topic and insults aren't tolerated. You should be allowed to enjoy and discuss the Raptors team that's currently constructed without having to be constantly bombarded with attacks and questions like you're posting on some other team's board.

Let me repeat again. Ignore the troll posts. Even if they quote you don't take the bait. All they want to do is engage you and get you arguing with them. If you ignore a troll long enough they'll wither off and die and go find some easier target to annoy.

[Snakeyes]

I've been down with hardcore tanking for the last couple years... but it seems like this team is headed for the treadmill again.