The Tank Debate Thread

[changes]

[TheRealBlizzy]

If GM Changed all of its upper-level staff (We just got a new CEO/COO/ President/ GM/ Coaching / Scouting / Office Assistants. I would expect major changes coming soon within the company, like when it recently did a huge overall during the bailout years and starting using a more euro-influence on chevy / gm and they are now taking back huge market share.

If we just change the GM, I can understand the point you make, but we changed everyone at the top of our entire organization. To not expect changes is foolish.

Who said not to expect change?

I've already seen massive changes. MU isn't blowing smoke up our ass about this being a guaranteed playoff team like BC would have. MU isn't destroying our long term cap situation by signing a guy like TH to 4 years instead of the 1 year he did. MU isn't stacking our bench with journey men vets like JL3 or AA who have no value as assets. MU isn't locking in guys like Gay or Lowry longterm without seeing the results on the court (BC would've locked these guys on day 1 if he could, it was his MO).

Major changes are happening, it's up to you to see them if you want.

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

[Reignman]

If GM Changed all of its upper-level staff (We just got a new CEO/COO/ President/ GM/ Coaching / Scouting / Office Assistants. I would expect major changes coming soon within the company, like when it recently did a huge overall during the bailout years and starting using a more euro-influence on chevy / gm and they are now taking back huge market share.

If we just change the GM, I can understand the point you make, but we changed everyone at the top of our entire organization. To not expect changes is foolish.

Who said not to expect change?

I've already seen massive changes. MU isn't blowing smoke up our ass about this being a guaranteed playoff team like BC would have. MU isn't destroying our long term cap situation by signing a guy like TH to 4 years instead of the 1 year he did. MU isn't stacking our bench with journey men vets like JL3 or AA who have no value as assets. MU isn't locking in guys like Gay or Lowry longterm without seeing the results on the court (BC would've locked these guys on day 1 if he could, it was his MO).

Major changes are happening, it's up to you to see them if you want.

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

We know this, you're like a parrot, it's hard to miss.

Here's an idea, if you really like your plan, you should quit your job (if you have one) and invest all your life savings into lottery tickets. If your plan is a good one you'll be a millionaire in no time.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Who said not to expect change?

I've already seen massive changes. MU isn't blowing smoke up our ass about this being a guaranteed playoff team like BC would have. MU isn't destroying our long term cap situation by signing a guy like TH to 4 years instead of the 1 year he did. MU isn't stacking our bench with journey men vets like JL3 or AA who have no value as assets. MU isn't locking in guys like Gay or Lowry longterm without seeing the results on the court (BC would've locked these guys on day 1 if he could, it was his MO).

Major changes are happening, it's up to you to see them if you want.

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

We know this, you're like a parrot, it's hard to miss.

Here's an idea, if you really like your plan, you should quit your job (if you have one) and invest all your life savings into lottery tickets. If your plan is a good one you'll be a millionaire in no time.

If your plan works to perfection, you still won't be a millionaire, bum ass team. Im out no more discussion cause' these people seriously think the raptors are **** contenders. Bryan Conalgelo had you guys wax'ng off daily after his press conference's, didn't he?

I dare someone to post a poll on the GB on what the Raptors should do. Won't find one person outside of our own stupid SSH's that feel like this team is close to contending.

ORGANIC GROWTH!

[Double Helix]

BC wasn't fired for adding Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry to a team that had Jonas Valanciunas, Amir Johnson, Demar Derozan and Terrence Ross on it.

He was fired because he hadn't built a winning team in 5 years, the fans were growing restless, some had started fire BC campaigns, and the new CEO wanted to make a bold move and signal a change in direction optically right away. That's why he was fired. Lack of winning in the 4 years previous was the biggest reason.

If BC had made the playoffs for 3 of the last 5 years he'd still be GM today. Be glad that didn't happen but don't assume that Masai dislikes Rudy Gay, Amir Johnson, Kyle Lowry and Demar Derozan as much as you do just because it finished 9th. He's smart enough to know that when you have 4 two-way talents in their prime years playing in a defensive system it stands a chance because he built something similar in Denver. He also knows that it doesn't happen right away. It takes time. He's already improved the bench and given Casey the greenlight to implement the kind of system that BC didn't trust him with.

[Reignman]

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

We know this, you're like a parrot, it's hard to miss.

Here's an idea, if you really like your plan, you should quit your job (if you have one) and invest all your life savings into lottery tickets. If your plan is a good one you'll be a millionaire in no time.

If your plan works to perfection, you still won't be a millionaire, bum ass team. Im out no more discussion cause' these people seriously think the raptors are **** contenders. Bryan Conalgelo had you guys wax'ng off daily after his press conference's, didn't he?

I dare someone to post a poll on the GB on what the Raptors should do. Won't find one person outside of our own stupid SSH's that feel like this team is close to contending.

ORGANIC GROWTH!

Find one quote where anyone on this board has called this team a contender or the foundation of the contender. Come back when you're ready to have a real discussion.

Most of us want a perennial playoff team. A team that can compete in the playoffs and not just roll over. Doesn't have to be a real contender (because only a handful truly are and they usually have the best players in the game on their team).

I don't know about you but I actually enjoy basketball and watching the playoffs. If championships are all that mattered then every basketball fan in the world would be a Miami heat fan.

[TheRealBlizzy]

We know this, you're like a parrot, it's hard to miss.

Here's an idea, if you really like your plan, you should quit your job (if you have one) and invest all your life savings into lottery tickets. If your plan is a good one you'll be a millionaire in no time.

If your plan works to perfection, you still won't be a millionaire, bum ass team. Im out no more discussion cause' these people seriously think the raptors are **** contenders. Bryan Conalgelo had you guys wax'ng off daily after his press conference's, didn't he?

I dare someone to post a poll on the GB on what the Raptors should do. Won't find one person outside of our own stupid SSH's that feel like this team is close to contending.

ORGANIC GROWTH!

Find one quote where anyone on this board has called this team a contender or the foundation of the contender. Come back when you're ready to have a real discussion.

Most of us want a perennial playoff team. A team that can compete in the playoffs and not just roll over. Doesn't have to be a real contender (because only a handful truly are and they usually have the best players in the game on their team).

I don't know about you but I actually enjoy basketball and watching the playoffs. If championships are all that mattered then every basketball fan in the world would be a Miami heat fan.

Its clear now, we have a the people that hope one day to win a championship and people who missed out on tickets to the last home playoff games we had!

[And1Skip]

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

Yeah even though we do have a 2014 pick, 2015 pick and 2 2016 pick (first round). But you would take trading Gay for Stuckey and CV and no picks. Welcome home CV. What if say, by trade deadline next year, a team is desparate to contend and offers us a better deal for Gay that INCLUDES picks? No - lets dismantle it now for crap. No one is giving up a 2014 pick. This form is called RealGM but doesn't mean that stickied thread above on trade ideas makes everyone here a "Real GM". MU has the wait-and-see approach without revealing what his plan is..and his plan is simple. Let other teams guess what Raptors are trying to do and eventually other teams will make stupid desperate moves and offer Raptors something good for our exisiting core.

[roundhead0]

From Masai's presser yesterday I think I understand what direction he wants to take and it's a wait and see direction. Probably not what most people want to here because they want either playoffs or tanking. For him that's a win win because in either case you get something good out of it for the team. If this team makes the playoffs then our assets value will be very high and it would allow us to retool on the fly like he did with Denver and make a perennial playoff team that stays young but has room to grow. If the season goes awry then we get a high draft pick in the best draft since 2003. Giving us a shot at Wiggins, Randle, Smart, Gordon, Parker, Exum, and the Harrison twins. I'm leaning more towards tanking but I'll be on board on whatever Masai deems necessary to make the team better.

Normally I too would counsel the wait-and-see approach, but with that 2014 draft class the potential is simply too high to take a lukewarm approach. If we can draft top-3 we will probably get the best player this franchise has ever had, and perhaps the best player it will EVER have. If we can draft top-6 we might still get the best player this franchise has ever had and is ever likely to get for quite a while.

The problem is that is if Masai waits for "things to go awry" it may be too late. Unless we get decimated by injuries in pre-season, this team is likely to have a mediocre start. We could end up winning a fair number of games before really hitting the skids and by then it may be too late to get anything better than, say, a 7th or 8th pick because other teams will be tanking pretty hard and I suspect pretty quickly too. I think you'll see a tank brigade around the league once New Year's comes around for any team under .400 (that's about a 33 win pace), and so I expect about 10 teams to go hard for the tank by mid-season.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

Yeah even though we do have a 2014 pick, 2015 pick and 2 2016 pick (first round). But you would take trading Gay for Stuckey and CV and no picks. Welcome home CV. What if say, by trade deadline next year, a team is desparate to contend and offers us a better deal for Gay that INCLUDES picks? No - lets dismantle it now for crap. No one is giving up a 2014 pick. This form is called RealGM but doesn't mean that stickied thread above on trade ideas makes everyone here a "Real GM". MU has the wait-and-see approach without revealing what his plan is..and his plan is simple. Let other teams guess what Raptors are trying to do and eventually other teams will make stupid desperate moves and offer Raptors something good for our exisiting core.

ANTI TANK LINE OF THE YEAR. **** THAT TRADE

Rudy Gay for picks + kcp or drummond straight up or a TON of picks alone. who the **** wants CV / STUCKEY? we can't do **** with cap space anyway.

We wait til next year trade deadline? We miss out on the best draft in a decade. Thanks, tank ship has sailed.

The way DET going, they will do it, just a game of chicken with DET / MU right now IMO.

[basketball royalty]

I thought this thread wasn't gonna be about tank vs anti-tank? Can't we talk about that in 20 other threads here?

[RapTelligence]

Major changes to me would be dismantling a perennial 9th seed that is capped out with no picks. But hey, to each their own.

Yeah even though we do have a 2014 pick, 2015 pick and 2 2016 pick (first round). But you would take trading Gay for Stuckey and CV and no picks. Welcome home CV. What if say, by trade deadline next year, a team is desparate to contend and offers us a better deal for Gay that INCLUDES picks? No - lets dismantle it now for crap. No one is giving up a 2014 pick. This form is called RealGM but doesn't mean that stickied thread above on trade ideas makes everyone here a "Real GM". MU has the wait-and-see approach without revealing what his plan is..and his plan is simple. Let other teams guess what Raptors are trying to do and eventually other teams will make stupid desperate moves and offer Raptors something good for our exisiting core.

ANTI TANK LINE OF THE YEAR. **** THAT TRADE

Rudy Gay for picks + kcp or drummond straight up or a TON of picks alone. who the **** wants CV / STUCKEY? we can't do **** with cap space anyway.

We wait til next year trade deadline? We miss out on the best draft in a decade. Thanks, tank ship has sailed.

The way DET going, they will do it, just a game of chicken with DET / MU right now IMO.

So you agree with Masai approach of being patient and waiting for teams to get desparate.

[Reignman]

If your plan works to perfection, you still won't be a millionaire, bum ass team. Im out no more discussion cause' these people seriously think the raptors are **** contenders. Bryan Conalgelo had you guys wax'ng off daily after his press conference's, didn't he?

I dare someone to post a poll on the GB on what the Raptors should do. Won't find one person outside of our own stupid SSH's that feel like this team is close to contending.

ORGANIC GROWTH!

Find one quote where anyone on this board has called this team a contender or the foundation of the contender. Come back when you're ready to have a real discussion.

Most of us want a perennial playoff team. A team that can compete in the playoffs and not just roll over. Doesn't have to be a real contender (because only a handful truly are and they usually have the best players in the game on their team).

I don't know about you but I actually enjoy basketball and watching the playoffs. If championships are all that mattered then every basketball fan in the world would be a Miami heat fan.

Its clear now, we have a the people that hope one day to win a championship and people who missed out on tickets to the last home playoff games we had!

The key word their is "hope". You have no plan and neither does any other tanker. It's all hope/pray pie-in-sky-nonsense.

Yeah, lets gut our team and pray to the Gods that we beat the odds and get the first pick, the guy we draft beats the odds and becomes a top 5 player, the team beats the odds and adds another star or two as a supporting cast and then pray/hope that all of that is better than a Miami heat team (or whichever destination city has hoarded top talent next).

Your plan isn't even a plan, it's complete and utter garbage. Like I said, go quit your job and blow your life savings on lottery tickets so you can become a millionaire.

I'll give you the props you deserve as I chuck a loonie into your timmy's cup as I walk by you on the sidewalk.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Yeah even though we do have a 2014 pick, 2015 pick and 2 2016 pick (first round). But you would take trading Gay for Stuckey and CV and no picks. Welcome home CV. What if say, by trade deadline next year, a team is desparate to contend and offers us a better deal for Gay that INCLUDES picks? No - lets dismantle it now for crap. No one is giving up a 2014 pick. This form is called RealGM but doesn't mean that stickied thread above on trade ideas makes everyone here a "Real GM". MU has the wait-and-see approach without revealing what his plan is..and his plan is simple. Let other teams guess what Raptors are trying to do and eventually other teams will make stupid desperate moves and offer Raptors something good for our exisiting core.

ANTI TANK LINE OF THE YEAR. **** THAT TRADE

Rudy Gay for picks + kcp or drummond straight up or a TON of picks alone. who the **** wants CV / STUCKEY? we can't do **** with cap space anyway.

We wait til next year trade deadline? We miss out on the best draft in a decade. Thanks, tank ship has sailed.

The way DET going, they will do it, just a game of chicken with DET / MU right now IMO.

So you agree with Masai approach of being patient and waiting for teams to get desparate.

For sure, and thats exactly what I think he is doing.

Everyone took out of the presser "oh im fine with the team bla bla" he said hes pretty clear on his direction after all the movement in the league has been made, and that his direction would be pretty clear in the next 5 days. We can't just toss away **** for free, we get picks back, thats what a real tank is, I don't understand where this notion of throwing away players came about, but whatever.

Let's see what he does in the next two weeks, and from that point on I get a good idea of what this team will do. It's funny to hear how the tank is no longer an option since we signed Psycho T and traded bargs for Novak (presser lol!).

[RapTelligence]

If adding Julyan Stone, Steve Novak, and Tyler Hansbrough aren't tank moves, then I'm sort of afraid of Masai's vision of an actual tank. It'd probably involve a bunch of crossbowmen at Demar's wedding.

Thats called an ORGANIC TANK.

[basketball royalty]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

[Double Helix]

I thought this thread wasn't gonna be about tank vs anti-tank? Can't we talk about that in 20 other threads here?

Exactly. Every thread on the board is already tank vs compete. The original intention of the OP was to look forward to next year with the team that we do have, rather than constantly complaining about what we should be doing to tear it down.

Don't take the bait, people. Ignore the tank talk entirely.

Here are some new topics to take this thread forward:

Anybody else looking forward to attending their first Raptors playoff game in over 5 years?

What's your favorite playoff memory in Toronto of the past 18 years?

Anybody else pumped to hear the TNT gang calling our games?

Anybody remember NBC showing Vince Carter in his UNC graduation gown as part of their pre-game promo against the 76ers?

Which top 4 seed would you most like to face in the hopes of upsetting them?

What players would you like to see Masai target at the trade deadline in order to get better? Who would you like to move in order to accomplish that?

[TheRealBlizzy]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

How about before you all say our idea of tanking is (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and a hope and a prayer (still 25%) of getting Wiggins, do some homework instead of posting 20,000 times to realgm, and look up draft express and watch videos of these prospects. I thought that's what fan's of teams not in the playoffs do, dream about upcoming prospects ..

Telling us our argument needs to hold more weight because you didn't look into the draft crop coming up doesn't make our argument look bad, it makes your's look terrible.

The facts are facts, the draft class is being touted as the 2nd best probably all time next to 2003. We also use facts when we say we are a treadmill team, enjoy 9th bla bla bla because that is exactly what the facts point to at this moment in time.

But who are we kidding, a plan based on hoping our team that finished .500 last year will miraculously finish .700 this year is the much smarter path then hoping to get new and better talent on cost-effective contracts.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Andrew Wiggins (SF) - Julius Randle (PF) - Dante Exum (PG/SG) - Aaron Gordon (PF) - Marcus Smart (PG) - Jabari Parker (PF) - Andrew Harrison (PG) - Glenn Robinson (SF) - James McAdoo (PF)

All solid prospects as of right now, and most actually fit into EXACTLY what our team would need if we traded Lowry and Rudy Gay for picks / young prospects.

[hillbilly hare]

We draft
We can't hold onto stars
They bolt as soon as the rookie contract is done.
We cannot build through the draft.

Ridiculous. Shrewd drafting and pick management, and value signings is the only way we can build something great. MLSE has the cash to spend on guys like MU and general salary, but we are a small market team for all intensive FA purposes..at least until we field a good team.

Steve Nash turned down big cash to come here, that's all you need to know. Well that and the fact that T-Mac is the only guy we drafted who bolted on us after his rookie deal, both Vince and Bosh stayed.

Draft good players, don't mortgage the future out of impatience, don't overspend on FAs, and you put yourself in a position to both keep your own stars and add other ones as FAs.

I think Nash not signing here was more a couple of other things. I'd say that first the biggest mistake was made by NY and TO media and fans that were "convinced" Nash was signing either here or there, as his "only" options. When the Lakers swept in and nabbed him it was pure Lakers. The attraction of playing in LA was probably having a HOF backcourt mate, the 2nd best C in the league, an All-NBA PF and so on. And it was reported he also wanted to be nearer his kids out west somewhere.

We really were so close last off-season, despite Clownangelo's best efforts to wreck the team. If he had been dumped in April we might have a completely different future. Imagine what someone like Morey could've done here with all the assets we had last offseason. Basically everything he did in Houston, and more.

It is NOT a given that the Raptors must be a bad team.