The Tank Debate Thread

[hillbilly hare]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

It's a good point. You need superstars if you want to seriously contend. And by superstars, I'd say guys who can make the All-NBA and/or All-D teams, i.e. approximately the top 20-25 guys in the league.

I would say that every draft has one or multiple potential superstars. Though they are not always picked in the top lotto. I admit that I'm not that good of a judge of young prospects' potential so I will only go on what people say about Wiggins, etc.

The other way to look at things is to ask: given that you need at least one superstar to contend, how many guys on our team are superstars or potential superstars? None, obviously. At least for the next 2-3 years, as we hope that Jonas might be that guy some time in the future. But Gay and Demar and Lowry are clearly NOT those guys. And seeing as we know that, we have to think how we might use them to acquire the assets needed to acquire superstar talent. See: James Harden last year. That specific case is probably a once every 5 years kind of deal, but it's the right idea. What assets can we get for our guys? I hope it's primarily draft picks and young prospects and expirings. Cap space is a valuable asset too. If we had been able to take back Perkins from OKC, I think they would've loved to dump him together with Harden, for Jonas and relatively little more, i.e. compared to Houston. The Rockets traded Lamb, who they picked 12th. Hardly top of the lotto stuff. The other picks they traded to OKC were our pick projected around 10th (was 12th) and a Dallas top 20 protected pick. Those are not amazing assets in the least. But they netted a superstar. The key clearly was having multiple first round picks, even if they aren't high lotto ones.

[garbagnani]

I think we need to tank this year. THis draft looks like one of best in decades, could be as good as lebron year, we need a top 5 pick.

Trade lowry for a first rounder (or maybe to OKC for perry jones and filler)
Trade Rudy to washington (they are pushing for playoffs) for first rounder plus filler.
keep the rest. instruct casey to literally lose on purpose (ie/ pull hot shooters out of the game).
develop jonas, ross as much as possible.

We would have jonas, ross plus multiple young prospects.

[garbagnani]

we have sucked for a long time. might as well suck really hard for just one more year. Lets actually be good at sucking this time.

[Scase]

We draft
We can't hold onto stars
They bolt as soon as the rookie contract is done.
We cannot build through the draft.

Ok so who bolted after the rookie contract besides T-mac?

[TorontoRapture]

Every franchise caliber player that the Raptors have had they got in the draft. It is inconceivable to think that the Raptors will attract other franchise caliber players who are in their prime to play here, without acquiring one through the draft first. Elite players have never desired to be the first of their caliber to sign with the team...not in Toronto anyway.

[akakalakin]

I thought this thread wasn't gonna be about tank vs anti-tank? Can't we talk about that in 20 other threads here?

Exactly. Every thread on the board is already tank vs compete. The original intention of the OP was to look forward to next year with the team that we do have, rather than constantly complaining about what we should be doing to tear it down.

Don't take the bait, people. Ignore the tank talk entirely.

Here are some new topics to take this thread forward:

Anybody else looking forward to attending their first Raptors playoff game in over 5 years?

What's your favorite playoff memory in Toronto of the past 18 years?

Anybody else pumped to hear the TNT gang calling our games?

Anybody remember NBC showing Vince Carter in his UNC graduation gown as part of their pre-game promo against the 76ers?

Which top 4 seed would you most like to face in the hopes of upsetting them?

What players would you like to see Masai target at the trade deadline in order to get better? Who would you like to move in order to accomplish that?

Demar is the one to go, although I do like his willingness to get to the hoop and draw fouls and not just chuck

[Double Helix]

I thought this thread wasn't gonna be about tank vs anti-tank? Can't we talk about that in 20 other threads here?

Exactly. Every thread on the board is already tank vs compete. The original intention of the OP was to look forward to next year with the team that we do have, rather than constantly complaining about what we should be doing to tear it down.

Don't take the bait, people. Ignore the tank talk entirely.

Here are some new topics to take this thread forward:

Anybody else looking forward to attending their first Raptors playoff game in over 5 years?

What's your favorite playoff memory in Toronto of the past 18 years?

Anybody else pumped to hear the TNT gang calling our games?

Anybody remember NBC showing Vince Carter in his UNC graduation gown as part of their pre-game promo against the 76ers?

Which top 4 seed would you most like to face in the hopes of upsetting them?

What players would you like to see Masai target at the trade deadline in order to get better? Who would you like to move in order to accomplish that?

Demar is the one to go, although I do like his willingness to get to the hoop and draw fouls and not just chuck

I agree. I've always felt Demar or Lowry were the most likely to be traded. I think Kyle might stay now. I know that they like Demar but it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't shop him for another big piece if possible with Ross also on the roster at a much more affordable deal. Depth is nice in this league but talent trumps all. If Masai can move Demar for a player that can come in and improve this team I think he'd do it.

[TorontoRapture]

We draft
We can't hold onto stars
They bolt as soon as the rookie contract is done.
We cannot build through the draft.

On the contrary. With MU, the team may be built around our draft picks differently.

They drafted.
They did hold on to the biggest stars they've ever had, but failed to build well around them and they had a falling-out with those running the organization at the time.
Only T-Mac bolted after his rookie contract, because he wanted to play somewhere else. Stoudamire bolted because Isiah Thomas was fired and was adamantly against it. Both players have stated in retrospect that they wished things had worked out for them in Toronto instead. That if they had stayed, things would have been better in their careers.
The Raptors have built through the draft before, but failed to build on it properly, and they can build through the draft again.

[SDM]

Always pro tank when a team looks like a treadmill team + is capped out.

Never tank to get a specific player, but tank when you know it's not working currently because that is the quickest way to get new players.

[akakalakin]

and amnesty Kleiza?

I'm no cap expert

[ciueli]

I think we need to tank this year. THis draft looks like one of best in decades, could be as good as lebron year, we need a top 5 pick.

No, if you're in favour of tanking you're shooting for a top 2 pick (Wiggins or Randle). We picked up the 4th best player in the 2003 draft, one of the greatest drafts of all time and we didn't make the playoffs with Bosh until his 4th season. How many players in 2014 project to be better than Chris Bosh (an 8x NBA All-Star)? Are Marcus Smart, Aaron Gordon or Jabari Parker going to be 8x NBA All-Stars in their first 10 seasons?

Even if our team ends next season with the worst record in the league, we would still need to win the lottery to have a top 3 pick. And if our team has the worst record in the league, it usually takes years of rebuilding and developing young players to get back to contention. I hope everyone who supports tanking is willing to watch 3 or more years of .350 basketball because that's what you're signing up for. 2003 to 2006 all over again.

[CoachJReturns]

I appreciate the fact someone tried to start a non-tank related thread, even though I am pro tank. That being said, it may be impossible to talk about this team without discussing tanking, or at the very least making major changes to the current roster because as it stands it is a mediocre one. I do like some of our players. Rudy Gay was my choice for our number 1 pick once upon a time and I liked Lowry's tenacious defense since college. Still, Masai should be willing to let anyone go if a good offer comes along. The Detroit offer was a joke. If they have legitimate interest in Rudy they need to throw us a pick and a prospect. Sorry to derail your thread, as we all have, but this is a borderline playoff team. We all know this, it's a 7-11 group and most of us want more than that. How we get there is the only question. Do we want to blow it up and tank for a strong draft class, or stockpile draft picks and prospects for future moves ie. trading for an all-star, or higher draft pick. We're all on the same side. Just different strokes for different folks.

[sanity]

I think we need to tank this year. THis draft looks like one of best in decades, could be as good as lebron year, we need a top 5 pick.

No, if you're in favour of tanking you're shooting for a top 2 pick (Wiggins or Randle). We picked up the 4th best player in the 2003 draft, one of the greatest drafts of all time and we didn't make the playoffs with Bosh until his 4th season. How many players in 2014 project to be better than Chris Bosh (an 8x NBA All-Star)? Are Marcus Smart, Aaron Gordon or Jabari Parker going to be 8x NBA All-Stars in their first 10 seasons?

Even if our team ends next season with the worst record in the league, we would still need to win the lottery to have a top 3 pick. And if our team has the worst record in the league, it usually takes years of rebuilding and developing young players to get back to contention. I hope everyone who supports tanking is willing to watch 3 or more years of .350 basketball because that's what you're signing up for. 2003 to 2006 all over again.

Bosh was the 2nd best player this franchise ever had, and is a player better than anyone on our current roster---and is responsible for the team's only playoffs appearances in the last 10 years. I fail to see the issue with drafting outside of the top-3 in the 2003 draft or why it means drafting outside of Wiggins or Parker in this draft won't be worthwhile.

Look at videos of Bosh, Wade, James or Anthony in their college years and look at some of the videos of these players. Did Bosh look as good as Randle?

[TdotRap4Lyfe]

If the team doesn't make a significant push this offseason than we should tank. I don't like the idea of being Miami's b**** and getting swept in the first round. I'd rather get better players and retrying the year after.

[TdotRap4Lyfe]

I think we need to tank this year. THis draft looks like one of best in decades, could be as good as lebron year, we need a top 5 pick.

No, if you're in favour of tanking you're shooting for a top 2 pick (Wiggins or Randle). We picked up the 4th best player in the 2003 draft, one of the greatest drafts of all time and we didn't make the playoffs with Bosh until his 4th season. How many players in 2014 project to be better than Chris Bosh (an 8x NBA All-Star)? Are Marcus Smart, Aaron Gordon or Jabari Parker going to be 8x NBA All-Stars in their first 10 seasons?

Even if our team ends next season with the worst record in the league, we would still need to win the lottery to have a top 3 pick. And if our team has the worst record in the league, it usually takes years of rebuilding and developing young players to get back to contention. I hope everyone who supports tanking is willing to watch 3 or more years of .350 basketball because that's what you're signing up for. 2003 to 2006 all over again.

Bosh was the 2nd best player this franchise ever had, and is a player better than anyone on our current roster---and is responsible for the team's only playoffs appearances in the last 10 years. I fail to see the issue with drafting outside of the top-3 in the 2003 draft or why it means drafting outside of Wiggins or Parker in this draft won't be worthwhile.

Star wise he is 2nd, but career stats wise, he owns most of the Raptors stats.

[TdotRap4Lyfe]

If we really were going for a Playoffs push we should have attempted in some capacity to work out a sign-and-trade for Millsap, as Atlanta got a bargain for him IMHO. We need a PF (No offence to Amir, but he can't play tons of minutes).

[StMikes31]

Anyone who actually thinks Tim and Masai are going to push to make the playoffs the next two years is going to be sorely mistaken.

As Masai has said "Making the playoffs is easy but that's not the goal here".

I hope a big trade happens soon if not during the beginning of the year because all these threads and posters are wack.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I think we need to tank this year. THis draft looks like one of best in decades, could be as good as lebron year, we need a top 5 pick.

No, if you're in favour of tanking you're shooting for a top 2 pick (Wiggins or Randle). We picked up the 4th best player in the 2003 draft, one of the greatest drafts of all time and we didn't make the playoffs with Bosh until his 4th season. How many players in 2014 project to be better than Chris Bosh (an 8x NBA All-Star)? Are Marcus Smart, Aaron Gordon or Jabari Parker going to be 8x NBA All-Stars in their first 10 seasons?

Even if our team ends next season with the worst record in the league, we would still need to win the lottery to have a top 3 pick. And if our team has the worst record in the league, it usually takes years of rebuilding and developing young players to get back to contention. I hope everyone who supports tanking is willing to watch 3 or more years of .350 basketball because that's what you're signing up for. 2003 to 2006 all over again.

Bosh was the 2nd best player this franchise ever had, and is a player better than anyone on our current roster---and is responsible for the team's only playoffs appearances in the last 10 years. I fail to see the issue with drafting outside of the top-3 in the 2003 draft or why it means drafting outside of Wiggins or Parker in this draft won't be worthwhile.

Look at videos of Bosh, Wade, James or Anthony in their college years and look at some of the videos of these players. Did Bosh look as good as Randle?

No merit to any claims don't bother with it.

[TheRealBlizzy]

treadmill crowd is telling us current era > bosh era, meanwhile we have done absolutely nothing with this team.

[akakalakin]

a trade or two and they are top 5

Bosh should be traded, and I don't think Flash & the queen will last forever-there goes Miami