The Tank Debate Thread

[Reignman]

I've never heard such garbage and selfish arguments before.

We have the STH who want to push forward for the next two years just so they can go to games and watch a mediocre basketball team with no championship upside (and then they want to tank in the 3rd year, which is even more stupid).

Then we have the casual fans who are just 'star struck' at the names of Rudy Gay and Demar Derozan, meanwhile they aren't even that great. These guys also want to re-tool just so they can sit at home and watch a few wins here and there (still no guarantees we make the playoffs and probably likely we sit at 10 again).

Both of these groups of posters should really stop posting and to me, this just goes to show how they aren't real/true fans IMO.

How about the 3rd group who are happy watching a loser lottery team year after year with zero guarantees they'll ever become a contender?

The numbers are out there, tanking is for losers.

The third group actually has a plan that makes sense and tanking has proved to be a significant step into building a contender. Your plan does not.

But yeah, let's keep treadmilling in the East for another wasted 5 years. You might as well fire Masai right now.

LOL @ "plan". That's no **** plan, that's praying for you to gut your team to be as bad as possible, hope nobody does it better than you, pray you hit the lottery and then pray again that the guy you draft actually becomes a top 5 type of player. I'm not even going to get into the type of supporting cast you need to be a legit contender or the fact that there will always be destination cities like MIA/LA/Bos where established superstars will join forces.

That's not a plan, that's **** joke.

[Raps in 4]

Not at all. Look at the facts involved. If there was a legitimate argument and solution that would allow us to be a contender by a re-tool than I'm all for it but there isn't and you guys still until this day have not suggested a sensible option.

This right hear is the biggest problem with the anti-tank argument (or rather, complete lack of one). The only "arguments" I see are "let things play out" "this team hasn't had a chance to gel, they will surprise you" "we still have a young team with potential" "Masai is a smart GM, he'll make some smart trades; don't ask me what trades, Masai is the GM" etc.

There literally has not been one concrete argument made yet by their side.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I think that for long term, tanking is doing more harm than good.

Harm: losing culture, bad reputation. F.A. not interested to play for the team. Players want to leave. Having to overpay. No desire to have success other than having a better next contract. Losing fans, sponsors, TV contracts, etc.

Nobody wants to play for us anyway, raptors have a losing culture already, are the butt of all jokes, TV contracts do not matter at all because the TV stations own the team, sponsors are just leafs sponsors carried over (want to advertise at leafs? pay for some raptors signage to get in) .. everyone already comes here to play for a better contract or comes because we overpay, thats it.. even stevey nash turned us down for less money!

Good: drafting a great player ??? probability of success is low

There are 5 franchise prospects in this draft. check 2003.

In order to have a successful tanking (if definition is championship contender), you need ALL the following criteria :

- be really bad, or really unlucky with injuries (would you renew your season tickets ?)

we are pretty bad.. and have been unlucky with injuries often.

- being lucky with lottery (check maths, lottery history !)

you can also finish 13th and win it, but 25% chance is just for the first pick, lets say we did have the first pick, the chance we end up maintaining our position in the top5 picks is above 90%.

- having franchise players in the draft (not even every year)

Well hey, there are FIVE this year!

- make the right choice

if you have faith in the gm to rebuild, you better have faith they can draft too? also much easier 5 prospects basically cant miss and one is a hometown superhero

- the player stays healthy (Oden, B. Roy)

our whole team could die tonight, so this is pointless

- the player wants to stay with the team (Bosh, VC, LBJ, etc)

no player on our current team would like to stay more then ANDREW WIGGINS FROM TORONTO!


So IMHO the probability of having a very successful tanking is very low.
Spurs won a championship with the franchise player they drafted (the 6 criteria were respected). But they are the exception, and this is not even the only reason they won championships.

You are delusional if you think there are 5 franchise players in the 2014 draft. 2003 only had 2 superstars.

Wade Bosh Carmelo Lebron - 4 legitimate franchise players, regardless of if you think they are good or not or will win a championship each of them have been a franchise player and have been atleast top 5 in their position for a sustained period of time, all while on their original team also.

david west, chris kaman josh howard and mo williams were also selected in 2003 in later picks and have become allstars (stacking multiple picks for 2014)..

IMO this draft class looks better then 2003 did, 2003 i really just knew about melo lbj and watched alot of wade mixes, but didnt see bosh myself at all really. this year the prospects are looking insane. its just a fact as time goes on the younger kids are getting better and better, a ton of the leagues superstars are under 25, whens the last time you could say that?

[ThereIsNoSpork]

Yeah getting swept in playoffs 2 years in a row will be fun. If these scrubs can even get there..


Sent from my iPad mini using Tapatalk HD

[TheRealBlizzy]

Not at all. Look at the facts involved. If there was a legitimate argument and solution that would allow us to be a contender by a re-tool than I'm all for it but there isn't and you guys still until this day have not suggested a sensible option.

This right hear is the biggest problem with the anti-tank argument (or rather, complete lack of one). The only "arguments" I see are "let things play out" "this team hasn't had a chance to gel, they will surprise you" "Masai is a smart GM, he'll make some smart trades" "don't ask me what trades, Masai is the GM" etc.

But our plan is **** stupid and a pipe dream !!! 0.000001% chance of winning the lottery or getting a good pick in the draft! just sit by and wait for a miracle guys!

They think by tanking we MUST finish with the worst record. Hey **** happens, other teams suck too and also will be tanking, you do what you can to finish with a top 5 pick.. Telling me it doesn't work that way? Ask the cavs how the #1 picks have them feeling vs our treadmill bull...

[BO55]

If we are GUARANTEED 1st
Hell yeah why not? But we ain't
Don't wanna set ourselves for more disappointment

I don't get this logic.. Wiggins isn't the only good player you know... Top 5 players next year could all of been #1 this year easily. Disappointment? Like this scrub team we have now won't disappoint us? Funny


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Pretty much trying to say no to tanking. If you say top 5 players can easily be number one
I can say top 20 players could have been easily top 10 in a different draft.
Regardless knowing the type of Raptors fans out there, nothing is gonna please them and they are always gonna be disappointed.

[StMikes31]

How about the 3rd group who are happy watching a loser lottery team year after year with zero guarantees they'll ever become a contender?

The numbers are out there, tanking is for losers.

The third group actually has a plan that makes sense and tanking has proved to be a significant step into building a contender. Your plan does not.

But yeah, let's keep treadmilling in the East for another wasted 5 years. You might as well fire Masai right now.

LOL @ "plan". That's no **** plan, that's praying for you to gut your team to be as bad as possible, hope nobody does it better than you, pray you hit the lottery and then pray again that the guy you draft actually becomes a top 5 type of player. I'm not even going to get into the type of supporting cast you need to be a legit contender or the fact that there will always be destination cities like MIA/LA/Bos where established superstars will join forces.

That's not a plan, that's **** joke.

Tell that to Miami, Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, OKC who all used tanking as a tool in order to take a significant step to become a contender. And take a good look at what ORL is doing right now - they are making smart, sound decisions with their picks and are just stock piling assets like any re-building team should do.

I should say that Boston used the pick to acquire Ray Allen which ultimately led them to the championship. And again, you still think tanking is just for selecting top guys. That has a big part of it but it also allows you to get a premium asset in a draft pick in which you can use it in a trade in order to acquire that star on the rise or star. That's what you're not getting. Enough of your Al Horford infatuation, imagine next year we get a top 5 pick and SAC decides it's time to move on from Demarcus and we somehow get him in a package including the pick - do you really think the pro tankers would oppose a trade like that?

Your re-tool is a **** joke and doesn't even make sense. Notice how the previous GM got fired because that's what he did every year for 7 years.

[TheRealBlizzy]

The third group actually has a plan that makes sense and tanking has proved to be a significant step into building a contender. Your plan does not.

But yeah, let's keep treadmilling in the East for another wasted 5 years. You might as well fire Masai right now.

LOL @ "plan". That's no **** plan, that's praying for you to gut your team to be as bad as possible, hope nobody does it better than you, pray you hit the lottery and then pray again that the guy you draft actually becomes a top 5 type of player. I'm not even going to get into the type of supporting cast you need to be a legit contender or the fact that there will always be destination cities like MIA/LA/Bos where established superstars will join forces.

That's not a plan, that's **** joke.

Tell that to Miami, Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, OKC who all used tanking as a tool in order to take a significant step to become a contender. And take a good look at what ORL is doing right now - they are making smart, sound decisions with their picks and are just stock piling assets like any re-building team should do.

I should say that Boston used the pick to acquire Ray Allen which ultimately led them to the championship. And again, you still think tanking is just for selecting top guys. That has a big part of it but it also allows you to get a premium asset in a draft pick in which you can use it in a trade in order to acquire that star on the rise or star. That's what you're not getting. Enough of your Al Horford infatuation, imagine next year we get a top 5 pick and SAC decides it's time to move on from Demarcus and we somehow get him in a package including the pick - do you really think the pro tankers would oppose a trade like that?

Your re-tool is a **** joke and doesn't even make sense. Notice how the previous GM got fired because that's what he did every year.

I can't **** wait for rudy gay to get traded in the next week and these guys to go insane and start drunk dialing their SSH Sales Reps at 3am.

[Marvin Martian]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

It's a good point. You need superstars if you want to seriously contend. And by superstars, I'd say guys who can make the All-NBA and/or All-D teams, i.e. approximately the top 20-25 guys in the league.

I would say that every draft has one or multiple potential superstars. Though they are not always picked in the top lotto. I admit that I'm not that good of a judge of young prospects' potential so I will only go on what people say about Wiggins, etc.

The other way to look at things is to ask: given that you need at least one superstar to contend, how many guys on our team are superstars or potential superstars? None, obviously. At least for the next 2-3 years, as we hope that Jonas might be that guy some time in the future. But Gay and Demar and Lowry are clearly NOT those guys. And seeing as we know that, we have to think how we might use them to acquire the assets needed to acquire superstar talent. See: James Harden last year. That specific case is probably a once every 5 years kind of deal, but it's the right idea. What assets can we get for our guys? I hope it's primarily draft picks and young prospects and expirings. Cap space is a valuable asset too. If we had been able to take back Perkins from OKC, I think they would've loved to dump him together with Harden, for Jonas and relatively little more, i.e. compared to Houston. The Rockets traded Lamb, who they picked 12th. Hardly top of the lotto stuff. The other picks they traded to OKC were our pick projected around 10th (was 12th) and a Dallas top 20 protected pick. Those are not amazing assets in the least. But they netted a superstar. The key clearly was having multiple first round picks, even if they aren't high lotto ones.

A top 20-25 guy can make you team a contender? I would say a top 5 guy can make you a contender. Top 20-25 guys are like Chris Bosh and LMA i.e. players who will not take your team anywhere.

Titles are won by once in a generation talents and to suggest that there are 5 of those in the 2014 draft is highly egregious to say the least.

[Raps in 4]

They think by tanking we MUST finish with the worst record. Hey **** happens, other teams suck too and also will be tanking, you do what you can to finish with a top 5 pick.. Telling me it doesn't work that way? Ask the cavs how the #1 picks have them feeling vs our treadmill bull...

Apparently the odds of us landing a top-5 pick and drafting a star are very low, but the odds of our capped out, mediocre roster contending with minor adjustments is high!

[hankscorpioLA]

Everyone seems to think they know how good this team can be.

How exactly?

The average age of this starting 5 is 25 years old. Arguably the best player - and certainly the most important - is a 21 year old center coming off his rookie season. The current lineup has been in place for less than half a season. And in that half a season they still managed to play .500 ball (all caveats understood). Both as individuals and as a unit, they have come nowhere near reaching their potential.

Now, I can buy the argument that Demar and Rudy Gay are not an ideal fit together - so perhaps a trade of one or the other is in order - but that trade need not be a "tank" move. I gave an example last week where if we traded Demar for Klay Thompson (arguably an equivalent player) we would immediately improve because Klay would improve our 3 point shooting, which is arguably our biggest weakness.

Outside of the starting 5, the rest of the roster is being completely reshaped. Last year Alan Anderson, Andrea Bargnani, and Landry Fields played a combined 3535 minutes, or 17% of the team's total - almost 41 minutes per game. Two are gone and Fields will only get minutes if his performance dramatically improves.

So far, the reshaping of the bench has been mostly addition by subtraction, but I expect that will evolve over time. Terrence Ross and Quincy Acy are both young with lots of potential to improve. Regardless of what position, we WILL have a draft pick next year. And depending where we stand, we may be in a position to add another mid-level player.

Finally, I think its worth pointing out that there has been a clear shift in direction that has come from the top of MLSE down to Masai and on to Casey and that is a focus on defense and overall toughness. Last year, for whatever reason, management wanted Casey to run a more uptempo game focused on offense. That has now been scrapped and the team is going back to the defensive mindset. We will see how that plays out on the floor, but at this point, I am hopeful it will be successful.

We have also made substantial changes to our coaching staff and front office staff - including a complete overhaul of our scouting department. What impact will those changes have? How might analytics be more effectively utilized by the new regime, not just in terms of player acquisitions, but in terms of their style of play. What impact might those changes have?

So to sum up, you have a young roster, a completely changed and evolving second unit and a different organizational focus and direction.

I believe in tanking as a viable strategy when it is the right time. The Raptors have Jonas Valanciunas on their roster as a result of tanking.

But, for all the reasons I mentioned above, I have never believed that this was the right time to tank. Thankfully, it appears Raptors management agrees.

[bballsparkin]

I'm on side of the Raptors building through the draft. Preferably starting in 2014. I would like the Raptors to draft high, but concede that may not be the case. I agree Masai should not dump players for nothing just for the sake of being bad. That is not wise asset management. I also can imagine scenarios were MU takes advantage of other teams dumping contracts.

So supposing the Raptors roll this season with a team consisting of players already on the the team while aiming for the playoffs, here are my thoughts.

I don't like the combo of DD and Gay. So I believe one of them should be moved eventually. I like the chemistry between JV and Gay so that man would be DD. If Demar shows improvement over the summer with his three and plays a more team oriented style of ball rather than isos, he may be a keeper. I don't see it, but it's possible he proves fans wrong to start the season.

The other problems I see with this team is still at PG. I'm not a believe in Lowry. Yes he is a very good player. I'm just not sure I trust him. He showed up out of shape and has banged heads with coaches. Since this is Casey we are talking about perhaps it was fair while here. It's Kyle's contract year so we can bet our bottom dollar he's going to show up fit and probably throw up great numbers. But how will he play two years into his new rich contract? Will he be in shape. His style of play seems to lead to many nagging injuries. Thus far I am a bigger fan of Lowry when on other teams. If the Raptors make the playoffs or narrowly miss in typical Tdot fashion I would like to see MU get a PG in the 2014 draft. There could be some steals next year as everyone gets hyped up about the star potential and size while neglecting the talented little fellas.

As to our bigs. I like JV and Amir. Gray is a situational big. Good to have. And TH, although a player I have not liked, is a good addition on a good contract. Not often the Raptors have made good signings lately. Acy is a young big to play with energy of the bench. And Rudy can play minutes at the 4. That seems like a group that is on the small side. JV and AJ are both skinny at this point.

All in all, I have more faith in management. MU seems serious and sets a tone. I feel better having Lowry as I believe MU will handle contract negotiations wisely and will not get hoodwinked. As long as the Raptors do not make foolish win for the present moves I'm okay. They need to build for the future. And to do that Masai must capitalize using the assets he has available.

In closing, I hope the Raptors pick high in 2014. But if they do not go that path I hope they are in a position to continue improving. Yeah there is a ceiling that way, but chances are even if the Raptors get high in the lottery in 2014 they will hit a ceiling too. It's tough to win it all in this business. I would like the Raptors to retain picks unless trades like ATL parting with Horford come along. It would be a shame to miss out of the top 6 next year, as I don't have a lot of faith in this team, but even if the Raptors do there should be nice players available later in the draft too. And MU has shown to be a good drafter.

[Marvin Martian]

Wade Bosh Carmelo Lebron - 4 legitimate franchise players, regardless of if you think they are good or not or will win a championship each of them have been a franchise player and have been atleast top 5 in their position for a sustained period of time, all while on their original team also.

david west, chris kaman josh howard and mo williams were also selected in 2003 in later picks and have become allstars (stacking multiple picks for 2014)..

IMO this draft class looks better then 2003 did, 2003 i really just knew about melo lbj and watched alot of wade mixes, but didnt see bosh myself at all really. this year the prospects are looking insane. its just a fact as time goes on the younger kids are getting better and better, a ton of the leagues superstars are under 25, whens the last time you could say that?

Bosh is franchise player? Melo?

WTF have they accomplished to deserve being put in the same sentence as Wade and Lebron?

Lebron and Wade have carried teams on their back to the NBA finals. Bosh and Melo carried their teams to 1st round exits.

Franchise players are the ones that take your team to the next level. Melo isn't one of those guys and Masai proved it by replacing him with a bunch of non all-stars and making the team just as good if not better than it was before.

[Chevy Chase]

DH - can you do a bit of stat work.


Is there anywhere that shows team PER? if we added up the team per (or perhaps even team PER weighted based on individual minutes played) for the top teams of the past few years?

Then we can take the max salary and divide it by team PER to find out how much each of our players is really work and decide if they are "living up" to their contract. It would also give us an idea of how far we need to go adding pieces or having players develop.

[ciueli]

we currently have 0 all-stars, we do not need to gut the team, just the overpaid, non-allstar crap we have.

If we want a bottom 3 record (what we need to have a decent chance at winning a top 3 lottery pick) we will need to move Demar and Rudy at least. Then, if we don't win a lottery pick, our team might look like this the following season.

PG: Marcus Smart
SG: Ross
SF: Fields
PF: Amir
C: Val

Sure, we'll have a ton of cap space, but what top-tier free agent is going to take it? What assets do we have left to trade for better players? Shipping out Gay and Derozan for expiring only makes sense if we have a plan for the $30M in cap space it will free up the following season.

Hey, just ask the Bobcats how that "worst team in the NBA" thing has worked out for them the past two drafts.

[bballsparkin]

I'm ok with that he f'd up the Bargs trade

How so? He got picks for a mercurial player that needed a change of scenery. It's not hard to imagine that MLSE gave him a mandate that included getting rid of Bargnani pronto. And that's what MU did. Even if Bargnani plays well in NYC I support the trade. And lets see a bigger body of work by MU before we decide how he's doing.

[TheRealBlizzy]

we currently have 0 all-stars, we do not need to gut the team, just the overpaid, non-allstar crap we have.

If we want a bottom 3 record (what we need to have a decent chance at winning a top 3 lottery pick) we will need to move Demar and Rudy at least. Then, if we don't win a lottery pick, our team might look like this the following season.

PG: Marcus Smart
SG: Ross
SF: Fields
PF: Amir
C: Val

Sure, we'll have a ton of cap space, but what top-tier free agent is going to take it? What assets do we have left to trade for better players? Shipping out Gay and Derozan for expiring only makes sense if we have a plan for the $30M in cap space it will free up the following season.

Hey, just ask the Bobcats how that "worst team in the NBA" thing has worked out for them the past two drafts.

PG: Lowry
SG: Ross
SF: Wiggins
PF: Amir
C: Val

Still have multiple draft picks in upcoming years both 1st / 2nd that we own and other teams picks we own we can use to flip to a team like sota for kevin love and we can eat that using cap space, possibly fill out the rest with vets after that.

Ie. Season after next our roster is:

PG: Lowry
SG: Ross
SF: Wiggins
PF: Love
C: Val

im down, more hope then what we got.

[bballsparkin]

Enough of your Al Horford infatuation, imagine next year we get a top 5 pick and SAC decides it's time to move on from Demarcus and we somehow get him in a package including the pick - do you really think the pro tankers would oppose a trade like that?

What's with the Demarcus infatuation on this board. He's been in the league years and his teams don't win. Yes he's huge and has mad talent, but Cousins channels his inner Bargnai and takes dumb shots. Pouts, etc. I'd rather have the sure thing in a two way player like Horford. A player who would look great next to JV, Amir and Gay. If ATL dumps him for prospects and future picks that's something to explore. Ideally I agree with you, aim for a high pick in 2014 but it's good to have options. Horford was himself a third pick in a good draft.

[gerrit4]

[

A true fan insults everyone else who doesn't share their point of view. Very noble of you.

Not at all. Look at the facts involved. If there was a legitimate argument and solution that would allow us to be a contender by a re-tool than I'm all for it but there isn't and you guys still until this day have not suggested a sensible option.[/quote]

Don't lump me in to "you guys." I'm hardly pro-tank or anti-tank. We just watched the Rockets become a contender without tanking, so it's not like it's impossible. If it were up to me? I'd probably tank, as the chance to get a canadian superstar would be too tempting to pass up. But I don't think that "not tanking" means that there's no hope in the team improving and becoming a contender by collecting assets and using them to acquire a superstar.

[roundhead0]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

It's a good point. You need superstars if you want to seriously contend. And by superstars, I'd say guys who can make the All-NBA and/or All-D teams, i.e. approximately the top 20-25 guys in the league.

I would say that every draft has one or multiple potential superstars. Though they are not always picked in the top lotto. I admit that I'm not that good of a judge of young prospects' potential so I will only go on what people say about Wiggins, etc.

The other way to look at things is to ask: given that you need at least one superstar to contend, how many guys on our team are superstars or potential superstars? None, obviously. At least for the next 2-3 years, as we hope that Jonas might be that guy some time in the future. But Gay and Demar and Lowry are clearly NOT those guys. And seeing as we know that, we have to think how we might use them to acquire the assets needed to acquire superstar talent. See: James Harden last year. That specific case is probably a once every 5 years kind of deal, but it's the right idea. What assets can we get for our guys? I hope it's primarily draft picks and young prospects and expirings. Cap space is a valuable asset too. If we had been able to take back Perkins from OKC, I think they would've loved to dump him together with Harden, for Jonas and relatively little more, i.e. compared to Houston. The Rockets traded Lamb, who they picked 12th. Hardly top of the lotto stuff. The other picks they traded to OKC were our pick projected around 10th (was 12th) and a Dallas top 20 protected pick. Those are not amazing assets in the least. But they netted a superstar. The key clearly was having multiple first round picks, even if they aren't high lotto ones.

A top 20-25 guy can make you team a contender? I would say a top 5 guy can make you a contender. Top 20-25 guys are like Chris Bosh and LMA i.e. players who will not take your team anywhere.

Titles are won by once in a generation talents and to suggest that there are 5 of those in the 2014 draft is highly egregious to say the least.

A top 5 guy can get you somewhere on their own. A top-25 guy may be good enough to build around though, and attract more talent. And of course if you can get a couple of top-25's together maybe you can compete.

Blake Griffin is not a top 5 player. But guess what? He was exciting enough to attract other players--including an elite player like Chris Paul--even to a historically inept organization like the Clippers.