The Tank Debate Thread

[bballsparkin]

Bosh is franchise player? Melo?

WTF have they accomplished to deserve being put in the same sentence as Wade and Lebron?

Lebron and Wade have carried teams on their back to the NBA finals. Bosh and Melo carried their teams to 1st round exits.

Franchise players are the ones that take your team to the next level. Melo isn't one of those guys and Masai proved it by replacing him with a bunch of non all-stars and making the team just as good if not better than it was before.

Nothing is certain with the draft. But Melo sure had the signs of a franchise player. So you can't blame a team for wanting to draft a player like that. And his career is not over yet, it's possible he takes it to another level. And altough Bosh isn't one, I sure wouldn't mind watching a duo of JV and a player like Bosh develop together.

[Marvin Martian]

The Clippers needed David Stern to even give them the opportunity to sign CP3. Plus they had an up and coming "star" SG in Eric Gordon and a high quality draft pick as assets. Blake Griffin had very little impact on the deal.

[TheRealBlizzy]

The Clippers needed David Stern to even give them the opportunity to sign CP3. Plus they had an up and coming "star" SG in Eric Gordon and a high quality draft pick as assets. Blake Griffin had very little impact on the deal.

So how do we get a up and coming star like eric gordon, and high quality draft pick's as assets?? We trade our mediocre core to a GM desperate for his job BC style and get them and voila, clippers model.

[Marvin Martian]

Bosh is franchise player? Melo?

WTF have they accomplished to deserve being put in the same sentence as Wade and Lebron?

Lebron and Wade have carried teams on their back to the NBA finals. Bosh and Melo carried their teams to 1st round exits.

Franchise players are the ones that take your team to the next level. Melo isn't one of those guys and Masai proved it by replacing him with a bunch of non all-stars and making the team just as good if not better than it was before.

Nothing is certain with the draft. But Melo sure had the signs of a franchise player. So you can't blame a team for wanting to draft a player like that. And his career is not over yet, it's possible he takes it to another level. And altough Bosh isn't one, I sure wouldn't mind watching a duo of JV and a player like Bosh develop together.

Melo has proven that he is nothing but a mediocre scorer who cannot play defense or pass the ball. Bosh has proven that he is a wuss. Sure a JV Bosh duo sounds nice on paper, but it is still a treadmill squad which is what pro tankers are trying to avoid in the first place.

The draft has proven one thing: If you are a tanking team and you missed out on a franchise player, then you have lost the draft end of story. I don't want to hear how our less hyped 2014 prospect is on the same talent level as Andrew Wiggins. That would be a failure that not even BC could weasel his way out of.

[Marvin Martian]

The Clippers needed David Stern to even give them the opportunity to sign CP3. Plus they had an up and coming "star" SG in Eric Gordon and a high quality draft pick as assets. Blake Griffin had very little impact on the deal.

So how do we get a up and coming star like eric gordon, and high quality draft pick's as assets?? We trade our mediocre core to a GM desperate for his job BC style and get them and voila, clippers model.

Maybe you should ask whether Stern is going to block another trade to help out the non contending teams.

[TheRealBlizzy]

The Clippers needed David Stern to even give them the opportunity to sign CP3. Plus they had an up and coming "star" SG in Eric Gordon and a high quality draft pick as assets. Blake Griffin had very little impact on the deal.

So how do we get a up and coming star like eric gordon, and high quality draft pick's as assets?? We trade our mediocre core to a GM desperate for his job BC style and get them and voila, clippers model.

Maybe you should ask whether Stern is going to block another trade to help out the non contending teams.

Wether or not they got CP3, they were aiming for a max level player like him for a trade.

[StMikes31]

[

A true fan insults everyone else who doesn't share their point of view. Very noble of you.

Not at all. Look at the facts involved. If there was a legitimate argument and solution that would allow us to be a contender by a re-tool than I'm all for it but there isn't and you guys still until this day have not suggested a sensible option.

Don't lump me in to "you guys." I'm hardly pro-tank or anti-tank. We just watched the Rockets become a contender without tanking, so it's not like it's impossible. If it were up to me? I'd probably tank, as the chance to get a canadian superstar would be too tempting to pass up. But I don't think that "not tanking" means that there's no hope in the team improving and becoming a contender by collecting assets and using them to acquire a superstar.[/quote]

Again, we have to stop looking at HOU's model. Morey did an amazing job but superstars and top 10 guy's don't become available all that often. And you can bet teams will look at OKC's mistake and learn from it.

Right now, we need valuable assets in order for us to either draft or use in a trade to become a contender and then only way to do that is to take a step back this year, especially in a stacked draft.

[Reignman]

You need 2 Bosh's or 2 Melo's on your team to even start having a discussion about becoming one of the better playoff teams.

[TANKNATION]

[DatBoiCapspace]

The third group actually has a plan that makes sense and tanking has proved to be a significant step into building a contender. Your plan does not.

But yeah, let's keep treadmilling in the East for another wasted 5 years. You might as well fire Masai right now.

LOL @ "plan". That's no **** plan, that's praying for you to gut your team to be as bad as possible, hope nobody does it better than you, pray you hit the lottery and then pray again that the guy you draft actually becomes a top 5 type of player. I'm not even going to get into the type of supporting cast you need to be a legit contender or the fact that there will always be destination cities like MIA/LA/Bos where established superstars will join forces.

That's not a plan, that's **** joke.

Tell that to Miami, Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, OKC who all used tanking as a tool in order to take a significant step to become a contender. And take a good look at what ORL is doing right now - they are making smart, sound decisions with their picks and are just stock piling assets like any re-building team should do.

I should say that Boston used the pick to acquire Ray Allen which ultimately led them to the championship. And again, you still think tanking is just for selecting top guys. That has a big part of it but it also allows you to get a premium asset in a draft pick in which you can use it in a trade in order to acquire that star on the rise or star. That's what you're not getting. Enough of your Al Horford infatuation, imagine next year we get a top 5 pick and SAC decides it's time to move on from Demarcus and we somehow get him in a package including the pick - do you really think the pro tankers would oppose a trade like that?

Your re-tool is a **** joke and doesn't even make sense. Notice how the previous GM got fired because that's what he did every year for 7 years.

Literally none of the teams you mentioned except OKC gave away their players so they could suck the year they drafted their stars, and even OKC didnt do it the year they drafted Durant, they just had a down year due to injuries. Of the other contending teams, IND, CHI, LAC, DEN, BKN, HOU didnt throw their players to the trash so they could suck either. Memphis tried to, their reward? Hasheem Thabeet. They became a contender through smart trades and signings, not tanking "OKC style".

You talk about "real" fans, then want to follow the OKC model? You mean the same model that ruined a storied franchise so their owner could move the team out of town?

GTFO of this thread tank troll.

[StMikes31]

LOL @ "plan". That's no **** plan, that's praying for you to gut your team to be as bad as possible, hope nobody does it better than you, pray you hit the lottery and then pray again that the guy you draft actually becomes a top 5 type of player. I'm not even going to get into the type of supporting cast you need to be a legit contender or the fact that there will always be destination cities like MIA/LA/Bos where established superstars will join forces.

That's not a plan, that's **** joke.

Tell that to Miami, Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, OKC who all used tanking as a tool in order to take a significant step to become a contender. And take a good look at what ORL is doing right now - they are making smart, sound decisions with their picks and are just stock piling assets like any re-building team should do.

I should say that Boston used the pick to acquire Ray Allen which ultimately led them to the championship. And again, you still think tanking is just for selecting top guys. That has a big part of it but it also allows you to get a premium asset in a draft pick in which you can use it in a trade in order to acquire that star on the rise or star. That's what you're not getting. Enough of your Al Horford infatuation, imagine next year we get a top 5 pick and SAC decides it's time to move on from Demarcus and we somehow get him in a package including the pick - do you really think the pro tankers would oppose a trade like that?

Your re-tool is a **** joke and doesn't even make sense. Notice how the previous GM got fired because that's what he did every year for 7 years.

Literally none of the teams you mentioned except OKC gave away their players so they could suck the year they drafted their stars, and even OKC didnt do it the year they drafted Durant, they just had a down year due to injuries. Of the other contending teams, IND, CHI, LAC, DEN, BKN, HOU didnt throw their players to the trash so they could suck either. Memphis tried to, their reward? Hasheem Thabeet. They became a contender through smart trades and signings, not tanking "OKC style".

You talk about "real" fans, then want to follow the OKC model? You mean the same model that ruined a storied franchise so their owner could move the team out of town?

GTFO of this thread tank troll.

We just had this conversation 2 days ago.

All of those teams re-built their franchise using tanking as a big tool. There is nothing else to argue. It's fact.

And you do know that Lowry and Gay can be done at the end of the year right? So you instead want to keep these guys to walk instead of getting value for them? That makes total sense. And no you're not going to trade these guys for young and up and coming studs.

[DatBoiCapspace]

What we should do is what Masai is doing now. Wait to evaluate the teams play during the year, and look for possible trade partners to develop. The only upgrade I would make at this point is backup pg. But I preferably wouldnt sign an aging vet, I'd still look to sign a 27 and under backup with upside. Staying young keeps our "window" that Masai was referring to open longer.

I was down for trading Derozan for a legit threat at the 4 such as Millsap, but I'm not sure thats feasible now. Derozan to me is not a bad player but the most replaceable in our current starting 5, especially when you consider we have Ross in the farm. But thats a move that can be made down the road if this squad shows the potential, and Derozan and Ross should should get their shot to prove their worth this season.

Gay and Lowry I would consider trading if they dont lead our team to wins and have mediocre years. Since they are in contract years, if we cant/shouldnt resign them we should look to get something of value in return for them. If were struggling to compete for 8th half way through the year I wouldnt be against moving either of them.

Lastly, If Camby does not report, this team will be void a backup C not names Gray. If we cant find a good backup C, we should look to play small and run. Our athletes are too god and our playmaking is too poor to opt for a half court strategy.

[basketball royalty]

I think the guy we should be after now is Nate Robinson to be our scoring off the bench and backup PG. Maybe a nice S & T deal that puts Camby on the Bulls.

[Chaos Engine]

Question for you anti tank people. Obviously if we make the playoffs we want to avoid the 8th seed at all costs since Miami is a sweep waiting to happen, while Chicago and Indy at least present the chance for a 5 or 6 game series. But seeing almost every other team below us add significant pieces while the Raptors virtually stand still has to be frustrating no?

Mia, Chi, Ind, BKY, and NY are the five locks. Wizards IMO will take a giant step forward next season (would have made the playoffs if Wall didn't miss the first 2, 3 months) So that's six teams. Cleveland has some risky players that they added (Bynum, Bennett) but they're no doubt are ready to take the next step in their rebuild and are more talented than us.

So that leaves one spot for Atlanta, Detroit, Toronto and Milwaukee (who always seem to find a way to finish 8th or 9th). So even if we make it, that leaves us in the dreaded 8th spot first round bye spot. And with the team currently as is, I'll be honest I think Atlanta and Detroit are better because the bench unit for this team sucks. Stone-Ross-Fields/Novak-Hansborough-Gray? Masai hasn't exactly beefed up the bench.

[kplooksafterme]

This whole pro-tank/anti-tank paradigm is ignoring a lot of important parts of what it takes to build a successful franchise, in particular coaching and management.

The Raptors could tank for 5 years and still not be a very good team if the organization isn't doing a good job developing talent and building a team with the ability to play defense, and smart, efficient playoff basketball.

It reamins to be seen whether the addition of Lieweke and Ujiri are enough to make the management what it needs to be, but they seem the part and have made some really good moves early on (ignoring the BC maintaining President blunder which probably has a lot to do with Tennaubaum and the general disfunction in the front office that we're all used to).

And in terms of coaching, judging by how stupid the Raptors played last year it seems pretty obvious, at least to me, that Casey really leaves a lot do be desired. But good organizations have been good even with poor coaches in the past, so Casey's shortcomings by themselves don't mean the franchise can't progress.

Anyway, my point is there are way more important moves the organization can make other than tanking or not tanking, and if those moves aren't made tanking ultimately won't make much of a difference. The ideal scenario is we have the organization all on the same page, a coach who can get his players to execute the correct way to play basketball, and player-environment where there's pride in the team and its work-ethic, and we tank to get more talent, but I think the more realistic option is that we try to build this mentality within the organization while making smart, efficient trades for young players, picks, and expirings, but not intentionally tanking.

[basketball royalty]

I don't think Masai is done with the bench. Still needs some scoring punch.

Of course I'd rather finish higher but who says we get swept by Mia? Maybe we steal one or two? If we do become a serious defensive team minus the lapses we always seems to see I would think we could be in any game.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I don't think Masai is done with the bench. Still needs some scoring punch.

Of course I'd rather finish higher but who says we get swept by Mia? Maybe we steal one or two? If we do become a serious defensive team minus the lapses we always seems to see I would think we could be in any game.

So go 1-4 vs miami? then what...

[Chaos Engine]

I don't think Masai is done with the bench. Still needs some scoring punch.

Of course I'd rather finish higher but who says we get swept by Mia? Maybe we steal one or two? If we do become a serious defensive team minus the lapses we always seems to see I would think we could be in any game.

Mia would rip this team apart, since they wouldn't have to worry about 3 point shooters aside from Novak (who'd play 10 minutes). Teams that can rain down threes and have a great low post player are the only ones that give Miami trouble.

[hillbilly hare]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

It's a good point. You need superstars if you want to seriously contend. And by superstars, I'd say guys who can make the All-NBA and/or All-D teams, i.e. approximately the top 20-25 guys in the league.

I would say that every draft has one or multiple potential superstars. Though they are not always picked in the top lotto. I admit that I'm not that good of a judge of young prospects' potential so I will only go on what people say about Wiggins, etc.

The other way to look at things is to ask: given that you need at least one superstar to contend, how many guys on our team are superstars or potential superstars? None, obviously. At least for the next 2-3 years, as we hope that Jonas might be that guy some time in the future. But Gay and Demar and Lowry are clearly NOT those guys. And seeing as we know that, we have to think how we might use them to acquire the assets needed to acquire superstar talent. See: James Harden last year. That specific case is probably a once every 5 years kind of deal, but it's the right idea. What assets can we get for our guys? I hope it's primarily draft picks and young prospects and expirings. Cap space is a valuable asset too. If we had been able to take back Perkins from OKC, I think they would've loved to dump him together with Harden, for Jonas and relatively little more, i.e. compared to Houston. The Rockets traded Lamb, who they picked 12th. Hardly top of the lotto stuff. The other picks they traded to OKC were our pick projected around 10th (was 12th) and a Dallas top 20 protected pick. Those are not amazing assets in the least. But they netted a superstar. The key clearly was having multiple first round picks, even if they aren't high lotto ones.

A top 20-25 guy can make you team a contender? I would say a top 5 guy can make you a contender. Top 20-25 guys are like Chris Bosh and LMA i.e. players who will not take your team anywhere.

Titles are won by once in a generation talents and to suggest that there are 5 of those in the 2014 draft is highly egregious to say the least.

Whatever.

I didn't say there would be 5 "once in a generation talents" in the 14 draft, as that would be a bit of a non sequitur, wouldn't it?

I would say that the All-NBA teams are a pretty good start to find the guys that are game changers, who I'd more or less call superstars, which is a relative term to the time a guy plays in. An All-NBA guy today might not be one in some other era.

But anyway. This year's All-NBA teams had Lebron, KD, Duncan, Kobe, CP3, then Melo, Griffin, Marc Gasol, Tony Parker and Westbrook; then Dwight, Dwade, Harden and Paul George. Yes, I'd call those guys superstars, especially the more unsung guys like George and Gasol who were on BOTH the All-NBA and All-D teams. But anyway, if there were a Paul George in the 14 draft, or a Marc Gasol, then hell yeah, he'd be worth tanking for.

N.B. Neither Bosh nor Aldridge made either an All-NBA team or an All-D team, so no, they are not good examples of what I was talking about.

[basketball royalty]

I don't think Masai is done with the bench. Still needs some scoring punch.

Of course I'd rather finish higher but who says we get swept by Mia? Maybe we steal one or two? If we do become a serious defensive team minus the lapses we always seems to see I would think we could be in any game.

Mia would rip this team apart, since they wouldn't have to worry about 3 point shooters aside from Novak (who'd play 10 minutes). Teams that can rain down threes and have a great low post player are the only ones that give Miami trouble.

Good defensive teams give Miami trouble. If we do establish ourselves as a good defensive team then why would we get ripped apart? The Bulls were not ripped apart this year because they are a good defensive team.